The end of the "Great Felton Debate"

[fluffernutter]

Is anyone else looking forward to next season partly because we can finally get an answer to "the great Felton debate" aka Felton does/does not make other players "better," generally with reference to Okafor?

If Okafor starts putting up 20/10's next year with regularity, it's safe to say that both Felton and our system failed Okafor. He was underutilized, badly used, misused, whatever.

We all know Felton is not as good as Paul. Every idiot knows that. The question is how much worse.

Although it's very crude of me, and ignores coaching/system, I honestly expect Okafor's number next year to look like this.

Rebounding: same
Points: plus 1.5
Blocks: plus .5

That would indicate the positive effect of a top-tier PG on a not-very-skilled offensive player. Plus Okafor has a little more energy because he is playing for a better team, more blocks, etc.

This would not make Felton or the Bobcats look terribly bad. We didn't get the Max out of Okafor, but we got reasonably close. That extra 1.5 is just Paul being >>>> than Felton, rather than Felton being ineffective (in general) as a PG.

If something wild happens, however, like Okafor goes up 2.5 PPG, that's a real condemnation of Felton and our coaches. It wasn't that Okafor couldn't; it was that he couldn't given the conditions. Not only is Paul >>>>> Felton, but Felton has been shown incapable of helping another player achieve close to their Max.

On the other hand, if Okafor keeps throwing up 15/10's (or 17/10's) with roughly the same percentages, I think it's honest to say that we got out of Okafor 90% of what could be gotten, i.e. it isn't the fault of Felton or our coaching or offensive schemes or whatever. It's Okafor just being Okafor. You get your 15/10 and that's what you are gonna get, no matter what.

So anyway. Perhaps an end to the GFD (Great Felton Debate) is nigh.

(And if Okafor starts to put up 13/10, although I think that is 99.9% impossible, I guess we all have to laugh? Or cry? Or something?)

[spectre_]

Was Mo Williams really a fringe all star with the Bucks or did playing with LBJ (best point/forward in the game) hide his shortcomings like Milwaukee couldn't?

I'm going with the latter.

I've seen the comment, but really...shouldn't one EXPECT Mek's numbers to at worst stay the same and most likely get better? Wouldn't Boris, Crash & Raja benefit more playing beside a superstar? Wouldn't Felton? Wouldn't almost anyone?

If you really want a gauge send a player to a team with another "solid" PG and see if they do better or worse. Pairing them with a superstar and given the same opportunities I'd think it'd say more about a player if they didn't put up better numbers.

[fluffernutter]

Nah. Paul's a superstar. Everyone knows that, so it's reasonable to expect slight improvement out of Okafor.

I don't think you have to trade to another mid-range PG to answer this question.

If Paul >>> Felton, it's a slight improvement. If Paul >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Felton, it's more.

Yes, of course Okafor SHOULD have better numbers. That's the default expectation. The question is how MUCH better.

I think we are still going to learn a lot, particularly about Okafor's weaknesses.

Maybe he's weaknesses will disappear? Maybe they are just part of who he is?

In any case, it's hard data. Instead of theoretical fluff. Although I like fluff. With nuts.

[RichBoy923]

Was Mo Williams really a fringe all star with the Bucks or did playing with LBJ (best point/forward in the game) hide his shortcomings like Milwaukee couldn't?

I'm going with the latter.

But can't it be both? Mo Williams was really on the fringe of being an all star when with Milwaukee. He just didn't get all the publicity. But also, when he did come to Cleveland, he did benefit from playing beside James and participated in his first All Star Game (albeit on a replacement). But I do think Mo Williams had a decent chance of developing into an All Star even if he wasn't traded to the Cavs. Just being with LeBron helped him.

[spectre_]

I don't see it. Since there's only one Paul and possibly 1 or 2 that's even on his level (Nash comes to mind and maybe Williams) how does that reflect on Felton so much? If his new PG was another middle of the pack guy and Emeka does better then I could see it.

Now with Paul if he gets better a question could be "does he need a superstar PG to be worth the contract?". But what would it matter; he'd be

A Paul/Felton comparison (your >>> vs. >>>>>>>>>>>>) IMO is pretty pointless. Paul's on another level, just like he is compared to 80%-90% of the other PGs.

[spectre_]

But can't it be both? Mo Williams was really on the fringe of being an all star when with Milwaukee. He just didn't get all the publicity. But also, when he did come to Cleveland, he did benefit from playing beside James and participated in his first All Star Game (albeit on a replacement). But I do think Mo Williams had a decent chance of developing into an All Star even if he wasn't traded to the Cavs. Just being with LeBron helped him.

Maybe that's the same with Emeka...didn't get the publicity.

I don't really think that's the case with Mo, but since I haven't followed the guy (just read their board a lot) I won't try and argue it. Maybe it was "fit" in Milwaukee and not the player. Just like with Felton and his defense since we made the Suns' trade; was "it" there all along or was it the situation?

[NashtyNas]

Okafor will average 16/12/2 at least, especially considering they have no center to back him up.

[CatNation]

i think the real question is how often is Mek gonna get posterized by

a. his own man

b. drives past West

c. drives past peja

[Olajuwon34]

Getting posturized just means you made the effort but misread/mistimed the offensive player.

I think Okafor's numbers will go up slightly with probably a higher fg pct. and around the same or a lower number of attempts.

[CatNation]

Getting posturized just means you made the effort but misread/mistimed the offensive player.

I think Okafor's numbers will go up slightly with probably a higher fg pct. and around the same or a lower number of attempts.

yeah but a LOT of blocks occur thanks to having great defenders that force up bad shots around the hoop that the Cs can just swat out. Bell, Wallace, and Diaw are much better defenders than Peja, West, and whoever their starting SG even is

[BigSlam]

Is it fair to say that Jason Richardson had a better season in Charlotte than he did in Phoenix?

Does that make Felts a better PG than Nash?

[CatNation]

Is it fair to say that Jason Richardson had a better season in Charlotte than he did in Phoenix?

Does that make Felts a better PG than Nash?

not to mention Diaw and Bell had significantly better numbers as well!

Felton must be a top 5 pg at least....

[spectre_]

Is it fair to say that Jason Richardson had a better season in Charlotte than he did in Phoenix?

Does that make Felts a better PG than Nash?

Fit has to have a lot to do with it.

[BigSlam]

Is it fair to say that Jason Richardson had a better season in Charlotte than he did in Phoenix?

Does that make Felts a better PG than Nash?

Fit has to have a lot to do with it.

Totally my point. If EO50 does take off and plays out of his mind in NO you can't put that down to Felts not being a good PG. That's totally unfair on Felts.

There is a lot more to it than that.

[Walt Cronkite]

If he suddenly loses the "hands of stone" reputation, I think Felton has to be considered the biggest factor.

[W_HAMILTON]

yeah but a LOT of blocks occur thanks to having great defenders that force up bad shots around the hoop that the Cs can just swat out. Bell, Wallace, and Diaw are much better defenders than Peja, West, and whoever their starting SG even is

I don't know what that has to do with anything. People bitched that Okafor's "defensive presence" as a shotblocker has declined over the years, as we have added better defenders to our team. If guys aren't blowing past your perimeter defenders every other possession, you aren't going to get a chance to block as many shots.

That's probably why Okafor's best bpg numbers came earlier in his career, when we had poor defenders and gambled more as a team. The year where Okafor was mostly injured was the same year that Wallace took over as that defensive anchor type, and he averaged over 2bpg. Once we got better defensively as a team, Okafor's block numbers went down, as did Wallace's.

Your logic is flawed. If players don't get to the rim, your center isn't going to get a chance to block them. Using correct logic, if Peja and other guys are poor defenders, it means that Okafor will most likely get more attempts to block shots, which will probably result in his bpg numbers going UP.

[W_HAMILTON]

If Chandler ends up with a negative ppg, I think we will have our answer.

[thruthefire]

I'm with Spectre and BigSlam on this one.

What if (it won't happen) Tyson Chandler sets a career high in PPG? Does that make Raymond better than CP? It is, indeed, all about fit.

I do agree with Walt, that if Okafor starts catching everything, Felton's passing has to be looked at. I don't think that will happen, though. Mek is a very good player, but he does have butterfingers. Although, he wasn't as bad as some made him out to be, at least IMO.

[Walt Cronkite]

Yea, I didn't really get how CatNation was coming up with his better defenders=more blocks

If Chandler ends up with a negative ppg, I think we will have our answer.

I don't think that's fair. Everyone is acknowledging that Felton is a way worse PG than Paul, so for Chandler's ppg to drop, (like they will) just supports that Paul makes his teammates better than they are (something everyone already knows). What will be telling is if posters start calling Chander "hands of stone" and suddenly realize what we gave away.

I don't really see how the Okafor/Chandler swap can determine anything about Felton, much less end the greatest debate in the history of Bobcatsdom. All that the trade is going to do is make people realize how much flak they were giving to the guy that didn't deserve it. Okafor will shine in New Orleans next to David West and running with CP3 and all everyone will talk about in relation to the Bobcats is how awful our franchise was for misusing and giving away this talent for Chandler. Bob Johnson selling is the only silver lining.

[spectre_]

yeah but a LOT of blocks occur thanks to having great defenders that force up bad shots around the hoop that the Cs can just swat out. Bell, Wallace, and Diaw are much better defenders than Peja, West, and whoever their starting SG even is

I don't know what that has to do with anything. People bitched that Okafor's "defensive presence" as a shotblocker has declined over the years, as we have added better defenders to our team. If guys aren't blowing past your perimeter defenders every other possession, you aren't going to get a chance to block as many shots.

That's probably why Okafor's best bpg numbers came earlier in his career, when we had poor defenders and gambled more as a team. The year where Okafor was mostly injured was the same year that Wallace took over as that defensive anchor type, and he averaged over 2bpg. Once we got better defensively as a team, Okafor's block numbers went down, as did Wallace's.

Your logic is flawed. If players don't get to the rim, your center isn't going to get a chance to block them. Using correct logic, if Peja and other guys are poor defenders, it means that Okafor will most likely get more attempts to block shots, which will probably result in his bpg numbers going UP.

Absolutely right. With better defenders around him he could concentrate more on his guy and thus help the team. Just like with Crash and steals; last season he averaged about 0.8 less steals a game due to him not gambling so much off his man. Even tho that stat declined it can easily be argued that the team was better off for it.

If he suddenly loses the "hands of stone" reputation, I think Felton has to be considered the biggest factor.

I don't know that I even agree with that. Felton did (does?) have the reputation of really putting some strength behind his passes and Paul is more "finesse" and misdirection (I think...not like I've seen that many NOLA games). Even in your scenario I think it would go back to Slam's "fit" argument.