Thinking Basketball ep.6 Manu ginobili

[dhsilv2]

That's just not true at least in the spirit of what you are saying, most famously his foul on Dirk in '06. He actually didn't have an awful game that game but did have a bunch of turnovers PLUS that series changing foul. He was the catalyst to the loss is what I'm saying and it was due to his whirling dervish style. You talk about times where Manu would bring the game back to a slower pace, he had equally as many where the Spurs were playing their pace and Manu would get wild and break that consistency which let the other team back in. It's just not accurate to say he never had critically bad effects on games. It's just his good games are so good, people remember those

Manu scored 19 points on 8 shots in the second half against the Mavs. He had 4 total turnovers (and he balanced that with 3 steals of his own and who knows how many deflections, along with 2 blocks). They aren't in that game without him. He was the catalyst to getting the Spurs into OT in the first place.

You're kind of proving my point. This completely describes Ginobli as a player. 4 points in the first half and not really affecting the game much, then 2nd half comes alive. Has bad turnovers, but then gets good steals. You see what I'm saying about him being exciting and hairpulling at the same time? As far as him being a reason they are even in that game, well yes...he's one of the 3 best players on the team (IMO 2nd that year) so of course if he's out of the game the Spurs wouldn't be as close...you could have said the same about Parker or especially Duncan (who dominated that series). I guess I'll just agree to disagree.

But he does all these things in most games! There's nothing hair pulling about that. That was his role. He was the guy who was supposed to come in gunning and adjust based on the flow of the game. But you're just wrong about him not having much impact otherwise. If nothing else, he was an elite defender who didn't take plays off.

And he had 2 turn overs in the second half. You act like he had 4-5 in the second half. You're judging his impact as if he can only add value scoring and nothing could be further from the truth.

I'm not saying he didn't have a bad game here and there, but even in bad games. He had positive impact all over the court, like any other true super star will do.

[Yoshun]

Kinda overrated. Tbh. He was a really good player. But people are going overboard. Not close to a superstar or tier 1 player

I know it's not a popular take, but I agree.

I was always a fan of Manu. I liked watching him play, he always played hard, and he was really clutch. I think it's a little crazy to call him the MVP of the Spurs dynasty or a superstar. He was an excellent player and fun to watch, he just wasn't a superstar, and that's ok.

[dantas]

Manu was seventh (2007/08) and eighth (2006/07) in PER, with 2007/08 one of the two seasons in which he played +30 minutes per game. He was a player of spectacular efficiency.

Furthermore, he came to the USA at the age of 25, as a shooting guard, at a time when the NBA was more closed to foreigners. Legend.

[Doctor MJ]

That's just not true at least in the spirit of what you are saying, most famously his foul on Dirk in '06. He actually didn't have an awful game that game but did have a bunch of turnovers PLUS that series changing foul. He was the catalyst to the loss is what I'm saying and it was due to his whirling dervish style. You talk about times where Manu would bring the game back to a slower pace, he had equally as many where the Spurs were playing their pace and Manu would get wild and break that consistency which let the other team back in. It's just not accurate to say he never had critically bad effects on games. It's just his good games are so good, people remember those

Manu scored 19 points on 8 shots in the second half against the Mavs. He had 4 total turnovers (and he balanced that with 3 steals of his own and who knows how many deflections, along with 2 blocks). They aren't in that game without him. He was the catalyst to getting the Spurs into OT in the first place.

You're kind of proving my point. This completely describes Ginobli as a player. 4 points in the first half and not really affecting the game much, then 2nd half comes alive. Has bad turnovers, but then gets good steals. You see what I'm saying about him being exciting and hairpulling at the same time? As far as him being a reason they are even in that game, well yes...he's one of the 3 best players on the team (IMO 2nd that year) so of course if he's out of the game the Spurs wouldn't be as close...you could have said the same about Parker or especially Duncan (who dominated that series). I guess I'll just agree to disagree.

So I'll jump in and agree with you that "hairpulling" is an accurate adjective to describe how everyone saw Ginobili, to the point where Robert Horry said that the Spurs would have won 10 titles if Ginobili just did what he was told instead of improvising.

But this is where we really need to look at the data. We can see the good and the bad, but we can't easily see how it all adds up without looking at how it adds up statistically.

The reality is that Ginobili's impact numbers are those of a superstar basically his whole career, and that only happens if the good is not only outweighing the bad, but is improving on the skeleton scheme his coach came up with.

And of course Parker, Duncan, and Pop all say this same thing: It seems liked what he was doing was a problem when it went haywire, but in the end, it made the team better.

What I always say is that Ginobili's more limited minutes certainly limited his total value, and that's a thing that each of us needs to factor in, but to the idea that the bad in his game dropped him below other players in per minute impact, we've got the data, and the data tells a different story not only from our expectations, but from literally any other player in the databall era.

[Haldi]

One of those guys who always seemed to get a ridiculous amount of praise when played well and zero criticism when he was nowhere to be found.

I'm not sure I ever saw a game where Manu was nowhere to be found unless he was hurt. Manu is the KING of finding ways to help his team no matter what.

Biggest Ginobli fan here but there is at least one game, where he was “nowhere to be found” and thats a nice way to put it, it was actually much worse than that. And I always thought he did get criticized for it, but I guess its kinda been forgotten and only remembered as “the game with the Ray Allen 3”.

That entire 2nd half was complete poopoo from Ginobli, Spurs should’ve never lost that game. Missed free throws, turnovers including 2 turnovers at 40 and 20 seconds left in OT down by one (although 2nd one he got mauled and refs swallowed the whistle for a game 7 and more NBA money). I remember his 3rd quarter being just brutal too but I’d have to go back and check for specifics. In the finals the year after, he made a speech to his teammates about it, taking ownership of his failure, which shows great character by him of course.

That post you guys are all responding to is foolish of course, and I guess even after all these years I’m super sour about it and that’s why i remember it so well but Ginobli definitely did choke that one game. And I hate how often that word gets thrown around here by idiots that don’t understand basketball and defensive schemes and so on, but I do think it was that.

But anyways, as for the Op, great video so far, about halfway through it, truly special player, and very much an All NBA level player and NOT a 6th man level player lol.

[VanWest82]

I've seen posters try to make arguments that Manu was actually the best player in the league in 05. That's where I start drawing lines and say it's gone way too far. I think "superstar in his role" is the best descriptor.

Manu was one of a kind though. Good video.

[picc]

Manu was a great player. One of my favorites of the 00's. Video does a great job highlighting his strengths.

He also was too inconsistent game to game to qualify as a superstar, and his minutes/role/the Spurs system were designed to optimize his strengths and disguise any weaknesses. Never the opposing defense's primary focus, never the primary defender for SA, never the team's ironman heavy lifter, never the only creator, etc. An efficient player for sure, but never had to force any offense because there was always at least two other star offensive players on the team to share the burden and draw the focus of the defense away.

For those reasons you can't extrapolate his minutes to "project" him next to other star players. Their playing circumstances weren't the same even outside of the minutes thing. If he had to carry the offense as the opposing defense's focus over an 82 game season, would he have been as efficient? Would he have even lasted the season...? There's no reason to believe so.

Manu was in the perfect scenario to fully optimize a talented and creative guard. And still would have wild game to game fluctuations that you can't have if you want to be called a superstar or one of the best in the league. For example, if we look at the Spurs/Pistons series everyone thought he should have won finals MVP.

Overall averages: 19/4 on 64%TS

Very good numbers. The first two home games, he put up 26/2 on 73%TS and 27/7 on 98%TS (yes, you read that right).

The next three away games (all losses), these are his lines.
Game 3: 7 points on 2/6
Game 4: 12 points on 4/9
Game 5: 15 points on 5/16

Then 21/3 and 23/4 in the final two games. Leadings to the averages above.

In the series vs the Sonics that year, Pop made him a starter in games 5/6 after Seattle tied the series up. In his first game starting he scored 39 points on 10/15 shooting. The next game, in the same minutes? 13 points on 3/6.

The Spurs won that game to close out the series. When you can shoot 6 times and your team can still put away a conference semifinal team on the road, it represents the luxury of picking your spots. That's going to preserve efficiency and hide deficiencies that other players in other systems will not be able to.

That was a trend all through his career. Explosions followed by duds, then a good game again, then a dud again. You just aren't allowed that kind of fluctuation with those kinds of duds if you want people to favorably compare you to players who have to produce every night, or at least attempt to. Its apples and oranges.

I don't like this being the tone of the post, but I mean, when he played he wasn't not being put with the GOATS for no reason whatsoever. It was because of all of this. We can't just rewrite history.

___________

Saying all that, Manu was one of my favorites and I don't like feeling like a hater so I'll also say he was one of those guys who seemed to come up with a play all the time no matter what, and it wasn't always scoring. He was the definition of a GAMER. He would grab a huge rebound, or a huge steal/block, out of his ass. That was what I always admired most about him. The ability to contribute in every part of the game in the clutch.

I think my favorite memory of him is still the block on Harden. Two shifty lefties who were super creative with the ball, only one of them I liked and the other I hated. That was extremely satisfying to watch.

[KGtabake]

My favourite SG of all time.
His prime years make me laugh every time i hear people talking about prime harden.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Ginobili was a legit perennial All Star/All NBA level player for at 5-6 years. The best Offensive player on the Spurs from 2004-2011 by far.

Can also see why the author Thinking Basketball doesn't think Tim Duncan has a GOAT case as far peak is concerned. Duncan the Offensive Player is notably overrated & overcredited for their Offense & the Offensive uptick in the mid '00s. Sub mediocre perimeter shooting, Poor Passing Vision, Sub mediocre FT shooting while also having a slight dependence on All-Time Elite Foul Drawing to boost his Efficiency.

poor passing vision about Timmeh sounds too much. He's solid to good

[Ryoga Hibiki]

I'm a bit surprised given this series is about offense, that we heard so much about defense. But it's good point, Manu didn't rest on defense.

He didn't need to. He was probably only playing 25 minutes that night!

If Pop though he could get 40 out of Manu, he'd have played him 40.

And what's every other player who plays 25 a night and can't defense like Manu's excuse?

what's very weird is that’s no player with Manu's impact playing so little in history

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Eye test vs Numbers (in my mid-30s...) - Manu was an elite level role player/ borderline star but not a superstar. He gets a lot of credit for coming through in big moments and defining a style of play but he's not a superstar. please.

Eye test - maybe the best passing guard of his era, if not he was only second to Nash. One of the best game dunkers of his era. A defensive monster. Without a doubt one of the biggest stars of a generation who was over looked due to his selfless play.

States - They agree with the above.

Nash was definitely superior, and Paul as well.
But probably in contention for best ever for shooting guards.

[Primedeion]

One of those guys who always seemed to get a ridiculous amount of praise when played well and zero criticism when he was nowhere to be found.

I'm not sure I ever saw a game where Manu was nowhere to be found unless he was hurt. Manu is the KING of finding ways to help his team no matter what.

That post you guys are all responding to is foolish of course, and I guess even after all these years I’m super sour about it and that’s why i remember it so well but Ginobli definitely did choke that one game.

.

Nothing foolish about it kid. Manu is disgustingly overrated and calling him the "MVP" of those teams is ludicrous.

[Haldi]

My favourite SG of all time.
His prime years make me laugh every time i hear people talking about prime harden.

Again, biggest Ginobli fan here, but also huge Harden fan I’ll admit. But this here is where it gets silly imo and people end up calling Manu overrated instead of severely underrated which I really think he was. While being the overall 2nd best player on a team that won 4 championship is truly special, Harden would’ve been by far the best player on a champion team that would’ve beaten the greatest team ever assembled, the KD/Curry Warriors if it wasn’t for an absolute fluke of an injury moments before the finish line. I know how much you haters love that it didn’t happen, but it 100% would’ve, and Harden IS that guy that makes it possible.

Even though Manu is that underrated, there is nobody, and I mean NOBODY that is more underrated and most of all more disrespected, in the entire history of this sport than James Harden. Its just sad really.

And a bit off topic here, but I saw this in the other thread about “the 2nd best PF ever after TD”… if we wanna talk about who is by FAR the most overrated player ever, look at the names in the options and tell me which one does not belong. I will say thank god he has 0 votes but the fact he’s even in the list is a joke. A great example of why role players should never reach massive fame, it makes casual sports fan completely delusional.
This along with the Harden lesson are two great reasons ya’ll should just NEVER listen to sports media.

[KGtabake]

My favourite SG of all time.
His prime years make me laugh every time i hear people talking about prime harden.

Again, biggest Ginobli fan here, but also huge Harden fan I’ll admit. But this here is where it gets silly imo and people end up calling Manu overrated instead of severely underrated which I really think he was. While being the overall 2nd best player on a team that won 4 championship is truly special, Harden would’ve been by far the best player on a champion team that would’ve beaten the greatest team ever assembled, the KD/Curry Warriors if it wasn’t for an absolute fluke of an injury moments before the finish line. I know how much you haters love that it didn’t happen, but it 100% would’ve, and Harden IS that guy that makes it possible.

Even though Manu is that underrated, there is nobody, and I mean NOBODY that is more underrated and most of all more disrespected, in the entire history of this sport than James Harden. Its just sad really.

And a bit off topic here, but I saw this in the other thread about “the 2nd best PF ever after TD”… if we wanna talk about who is by FAR the most overrated player ever, look at the names in the options and tell me which one does not belong. I will say thank god he has 0 votes but the fact he’s even in the list is a joke. A great example of why role players should never reach massive fame, it makes casual sports fan completely delusional.
This along with the Harden lesson are two great reasons ya’ll should just NEVER listen to sports media.

James Harden isn't any of those things. He's an overconfident one dimensional diva who would have been a pretty good player if he had done two things
Either play like his debut season in Houston (as a traditional shooting guard with extra duties when needed) or play as a traditional point guard (like he's been doing in Philly) without all the extra weight.

This guy dribbled the air out of the ball for a decade, made a GM dare to compare him with MJ(Morey you fool) and of course didn't win anything of importance (not even made a finals appearance without KD) in 3 different teams which were built as he wished.

Ginobili was a far superior team player, a role model and someone you would feel proud if your kids looked up to him.

As for the PF thread. The other options to fill the 10th nomination were draymond green, chris webber, anthony davis, shawn kemp or lamarcus aldridge? I guess so.
None of these guys was more impactful than Rodman.

[Calvin Klein]

What makes Manu special is he is the anti Harden. A completely unselfish player that will do whatever it takes to win. And one of the best team mates and leaders in the sport. No ego bull. Again, the ANTI Harden.

Please…

[Haldi]

My favourite SG of all time.
His prime years make me laugh every time i hear people talking about prime harden.

Again, biggest Ginobli fan here, but also huge Harden fan I’ll admit. But this here is where it gets silly imo and people end up calling Manu overrated instead of severely underrated which I really think he was. While being the overall 2nd best player on a team that won 4 championship is truly special, Harden would’ve been by far the best player on a champion team that would’ve beaten the greatest team ever assembled, the KD/Curry Warriors if it wasn’t for an absolute fluke of an injury moments before the finish line. I know how much you haters love that it didn’t happen, but it 100% would’ve, and Harden IS that guy that makes it possible.

Even though Manu is that underrated, there is nobody, and I mean NOBODY that is more underrated and most of all more disrespected, in the entire history of this sport than James Harden. Its just sad really.

And a bit off topic here, but I saw this in the other thread about “the 2nd best PF ever after TD”… if we wanna talk about who is by FAR the most overrated player ever, look at the names in the options and tell me which one does not belong. I will say thank god he has 0 votes but the fact he’s even in the list is a joke. A great example of why role players should never reach massive fame, it makes casual sports fan completely delusional.
This along with the Harden lesson are two great reasons ya’ll should just NEVER listen to sports media.

James Harden isn't any of those things. He's an overconfident one dimensional diva who would have been a pretty good player if he had done two things
Either play like his debut season in Houston (as a traditional shooting guard with extra duties when needed) or play as a traditional point guard (like he's been doing in Philly) without all the extra weight.

This guy dribbled the air out of the ball for a decade, made a GM dare to compare him with MJ(Morey you fool) and of course didn't win anything of importance (not even made a finals appearance without KD) in 3 different teams which were built as he wished.

Ginobili was a far superior team player, a role model and someone you would feel proud if your kids looked up to him.

As for the PF thread. The other options to fill the 10th nomination were draymond green, chris webber, anthony davis, shawn kemp or lamarcus aldridge? I guess so.
None of these guys was more impactful than Rodman.

Rodman more impactful than AD, Kemp, LA and Webber lol. What a funny place this is, I think I’ll just see myself out and leave you guys to it so you can keep calling role players more impactful than NBA superstars. All the NBA GMs would no doubt agree with you all of course.

[canada_dry]

Manu Ginobili real plus minus Throughout prime with league rank

2005: 6.9- 5th

2006: 6.8- 6th

2007: 7.8 -4th (mostly off bench)

2008: 8.3-3rd (mostly off bench)

2010: 6.7-4th

2011: 5.4-5th (starter)

Just a role playing 6th man though. Sure.

Theres multiple advanced stats that he ranks very highly in btw. This isn't the only one.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

[TK Smart]

What makes Manu special is he is the anti Harden. A completely unselfish player that will do whatever it takes to win. And one of the best team mates and leaders in the sport. No ego bull. Again, the ANTI Harden.

Please…

These takes are ridiculous. Harden was 6moty when he was in Manu's role and seen as the best at what he did.

He was then disrespected by his GM in OKC and traded to Houston where he was forced to be the man and delivered.


Harden could do what Manu did, Manu absolutely could not be counted on to give a team 36 minutes a game while scoring 30+ on elite efficiency.


One his play style was too reckless and he would have likely wound up another sad injury case where we wonder what if he stayed healthy.

Two as mentioned he was wayyyy too boom or bust. The Spurs system and being able to rely on two other greats mitigated his bust moments to 6-7 shots which inflated his efficiency stats. But if he's supposed to be the guy and has to still get up 18-19 shots on his bust nights as his team is relying on him?


And y'all talk about his defense, let's see that defensive effort if he has to play 82 games, give the team 38 minutes and has to average 30+ points and 10+ assists for his team to win

[Pelly24]

Seeing how good manu was really puts into perspective how gross Kobe must've been lol because how were they beating those Spurs teams? Pau was good, but geez, Tim Duncan, Manu, Ginobili and all those great role players. Man.

I think Manu was probably a 22/6/9 on +6 TS% guy if he played 36 minutes per game in his career, translate those numbers to like 26/7/9 on +4 or +6 TS% if he played in this era. I think he was a top 10ish type talent. What amazed me in this video is how unique his athleticism was. Definitely an elite athlete with crazy handle and amazing creativity as a finisher and passer.

[KGtabake]

Again, biggest Ginobli fan here, but also huge Harden fan I’ll admit. But this here is where it gets silly imo and people end up calling Manu overrated instead of severely underrated which I really think he was. While being the overall 2nd best player on a team that won 4 championship is truly special, Harden would’ve been by far the best player on a champion team that would’ve beaten the greatest team ever assembled, the KD/Curry Warriors if it wasn’t for an absolute fluke of an injury moments before the finish line. I know how much you haters love that it didn’t happen, but it 100% would’ve, and Harden IS that guy that makes it possible.

Even though Manu is that underrated, there is nobody, and I mean NOBODY that is more underrated and most of all more disrespected, in the entire history of this sport than James Harden. Its just sad really.

And a bit off topic here, but I saw this in the other thread about “the 2nd best PF ever after TD”… if we wanna talk about who is by FAR the most overrated player ever, look at the names in the options and tell me which one does not belong. I will say thank god he has 0 votes but the fact he’s even in the list is a joke. A great example of why role players should never reach massive fame, it makes casual sports fan completely delusional.
This along with the Harden lesson are two great reasons ya’ll should just NEVER listen to sports media.

James Harden isn't any of those things. He's an overconfident one dimensional diva who would have been a pretty good player if he had done two things
Either play like his debut season in Houston (as a traditional shooting guard with extra duties when needed) or play as a traditional point guard (like he's been doing in Philly) without all the extra weight.

This guy dribbled the air out of the ball for a decade, made a GM dare to compare him with MJ(Morey you fool) and of course didn't win anything of importance (not even made a finals appearance without KD) in 3 different teams which were built as he wished.

Ginobili was a far superior team player, a role model and someone you would feel proud if your kids looked up to him.

As for the PF thread. The other options to fill the 10th nomination were draymond green, chris webber, anthony davis, shawn kemp or lamarcus aldridge? I guess so.
None of these guys was more impactful than Rodman.

Rodman more impactful than AD, Kemp, LA and Webber lol. What a funny place this is, I think I’ll just see myself out and leave you guys to it so you can keep calling role players more impactful than NBA superstars. All the NBA GMs would no doubt agree with you all of course.

Rodman wasn't a common role player.
He was the best rebounder in history and the best defender on a team that had Pippen and Jordan.
If you asked all the NBA GMs today you bet they would agree. See what draymond green did for the warriors.