*Update* Josh Giddey post All-Star break: 23.1 ppg, 10.9 rpg, 8.4 apg, 1.0 spg, 0.9 bpg on 65.5% TS

[Chi town]

As a Bulls fan, the stats feel empty. Granted, anyone putting up these numbers at his age should be appreciated even if they are empty. I do believe that his reputation as a facilitator is overblown. He is a great passer but it isn't like the he quickly moves the ball around and creates an infectious attitude on the team. He over dribbles and still makes horrible decisions.

So just to throw out some numbers...

His Box Creation is at 6.6, though his Passer Rating is at 8.4. PlayVal 0.8. cTOV% is 12% (these are seasonal numbers, not for the stretch given). He's producing 10.9 potential assists per game. Specifically over the past 9 games, he's posting 14.0 potential assists per game, which is tied with Cade Cunningham for 8th in the league over that stretch (and is creating +0.4 points per assist compared to Cade). He's also making 14.5 more passes. That's... pretty good. Very much not empty. HIs time of possession is faster than someone like Shai, for reference, and notably so. He's actually pretty middle-of-the-pack in time of possession compared to other volume playmakers. His raw time of possession is considerably lower than Cade, Trae, Brunson, Lillard, Maxey, Harden... I could go on. It isn't even top-50 in the league (54th). Brunson tops at 8.7, and Giddey's at 4.1. He's at about 3.28 seconds per touch, which is so low it isn't even top 150 in the league. 2.92 dribbles per touch...

Now, over the past 9 games? All of that is a little higher (ToP 5.3, 3.56 seconds per touch, 3.18 dribbles per touch), but still so low that it doesn't even register as an issue relative to other guys in the league.

It doesn't invalidate your concern per se, but from a relative standpoint, he really doesn't take a lot of time compared to other guys who fill a similar role.

Very helpful. Confirms the eye test.

Cade is who I have been thinking about with Giddey but Giddey does play faster and doesn’t post up or back down. Maybe he adds that in the future.

[tsherkin]

1. Giddey has changed the way he’s playing… he’s looking to draw fouls near the basket instead of shoot floaters. He’s getting all the way to the rim or he’s drawing fouls near the rim instead of the floater. I believe in his FT rate and think he will easily get to 6 FTs per game.

We'll see how it goes. As I said, it's something to keep an eye on, but he's large and 22, so it's possible that he's making some improvements. When stuff like that more than doubles over a short sample after several years of play, I tend to be skeptical to start. If it maintains, though...

2. His awful 3pt heave has changed 50% in its mechanics to an actual shot with arc and rotation now with his elbow in and wrist… not a push heave. It will continue to get better as he works with Patton one of the best shooting coaches in the game.

I think he gets to 40% from 3 on 5 attempts because he will only shoot open 3s and won’t create many off the bounce. Mainly CS wide open shots. Bulls ball movement gets him those with Ball Coby Zo and Buz being good passers.

Quite possible.

My point was more than he isn't going to keep shooting 50%+. But he IS doing better from the corners on a seasonal level (shooting over 41%) and taking them at the second-highest rate of his career (29.5% of his 3PA).

He's shooting 35.8% on above-break threes on the season, and 41.7% from the corner. And if he maintains that ratio, then 40% is attainable.

[Godymas]

He might be able to one day get his career #s to be over 18 ppg

[WindyCityBorn]

He might be able to one day get his career #s to be over 18 ppg

Guaranteed he’s banging more hot legal age women than you.

[tsherkin]

He might be able to one day get his career #s to be over 18 ppg

What's your goal with this comment?

He's scoring well during this stretch. He's been a 17 PTS36 guy his whole career. He's getting opportunity. Are you here just to piss off Chicago fans?

[Billl]

The guy can pass and rebound. The questions were about defense and shooting. If he can keep shooting a decent percentage from 3, that would be huge for him.

The problem is that he's very much an on ball player at this point and he's just never going to get that many touches on a team with a true 1A type scorer. This stretch is undoubtedly good for his confidence, but it's not going to be his long term role. He's got to keep knocking down those corner 3's and figure out how to be productive as a secondary ball handler in more a glue role.

[tsherkin]

The guy can pass and rebound. The questions were about defense and shooting. If he can keep shooting a decent percentage from 3, that would be huge for him.

The problem is that he's very much an on ball player at this point and he's just never going to get that many touches on a team with a true 1A type scorer. This stretch is undoubtedly good for his confidence, but it's not going to be his long term role. He's got to keep knocking down those corner 3's and figure out how to be productive as a secondary ball handler in more a glue role.

Depends on what kind of scorer it is, though. You put him next to Durant, and that's not really a problem. Same same with a guy like Steph. Any kind of movement shooter or post guy would not be a problem. It'd be primarily another above-break, on-ball guy who would be an issue.

Defensively, he's contesting like 60% more shots per game during this stretch and he's reasonably active getting deflections and stuff like that. I don't think anyone will confuse him for an All-D guy, but he's holding his own acceptably well.

[pipfan]

Honestly, as a doubtful Bulls' fan I'm coming around. His defense is better (not good, but not so terrible like early in the year). His shooting is obviously better (hope he can keep it up)
He still throws some STUPID passes and gets stripped some. I hope he cleans up his game some.

But, I've switched and now hope we keep him. I've actually had a vision
White/Ayo
Giddy/Huerter
Matas/Ball
Flagg/PWill
Collins/Smith
Phillips, Terry, Carter, Nurkic (traded with the #37 for Vuc) for the deep bench.

Only little hitch in my plan is moving up to win the lotto, but you gotta believe!

[PD28]

Giddey is carrying a lot more offensive load and doing it with good efficiency. Bulls are a lot better than I expected and he's got a lot to do with it.

[wco81]

Honestly, as a doubtful Bulls' fan I'm coming around. His defense is better (not good, but not so terrible like early in the year). His shooting is obviously better (hope he can keep it up)
He still throws some STUPID passes and gets stripped some. I hope he cleans up his game some.

But, I've switched and now hope we keep him. I've actually had a vision
White/Ayo
Giddy/Huerter
Matas/Ball
Flagg/PWill
Collins/Smith
Phillips, Terry, Carter, Nurkic (traded with the #37 for Vuc) for the deep bench.

Only little hitch in my plan is moving up to win the lotto, but you gotta believe!

How much do the Bulls pay him?

They have a bad contract with Pat Williams and isn't Coby White due for an extension too?

[ogmagicfan]

Orlando could really use him.

It would be hard pressed to find a worse fit with Orlando than Giddey. A guy who needs the ball in his hands playing with two other guys that need the ball in their hands and can’t shoot?

Wagner is better than Banchero maybe for the time being, Giddey shoots almost 38% from 3, it's way better than having Cole there.

With how both Paolo & Franz aren't plus 3 pt shooters, we need a PG who cant shoot 3's at volume and off the dribble. Giddey does neither.

A C&S 3 pt shooter will struggle on our team (KCP for example)

Giddey's best situation is a 6th man on a team with bench shooters. I just dont see a scenario where building a team around him works out. When defense kick into another gear in the playoffs, players like him get exposed for who they really are. For both his offensive & defensive weaknesses

[nikster]

great thing about realgm is all the naysayers and blowhards so vocal about young player's struggling are nowhere to be found when these guys develop and it's time for them to eat crow.

I will say he is doing way better than I expected, but I never understood the reactions from fans who thought this was a terrible trade for the Bulls. Even if he waant playing quite this well, a solid young player like Giddey for Caruso is fine.

[Ruma85]

It would be hard pressed to find a worse fit with Orlando than Giddey. A guy who needs the ball in his hands playing with two other guys that need the ball in their hands and can’t shoot?

Wagner is better than Banchero maybe for the time being, Giddey shoots almost 38% from 3, it's way better than having Cole there.

With how both Paolo & Franz aren't plus 3 pt shooters, we need a PG who cant shoot 3's at volume and off the dribble. Giddey does neither.

A C&S 3 pt shooter will struggle on our team (KCP for example)

Giddey's best situation is a 6th man on a team with bench shooters. I just dont see a scenario where building a team around him works out. When defense kick into another gear in the playoffs, players like him get exposed for who they really are. For both his offensive & defensive weaknesses

It's obvious Franz & Paolo need to improve on that. Giddey's not shooting high volume as it's not asked of him, maybe he could do it, he would be the best passer on your team, could do a whole lot worse than Giddey.

[PJSteven22]

Giddey's like a bigger, less athletic Kidd or Rubio. Looks like a slower Kidd when he gets the defensive rebound and pushes the break. Showing serious Dallas Mavericks Kidd vibes as a spot-up shooter this season. Last I checked he was doing like 38% 3PT on catch-and-shoot threes. Bigger size allows him to be more of a presence inside as a rebounder. Lack of comparative athleticism shows up most on defense.

Here's how the three compare at ages 21 and 22:

Kidd:
- 35.6 minutes per game
- 14.2 points, 6.1 rebounds, 8.7 assists, 2.0 steals, 0.3 blocks, 3.6 turnovers
- per 100 poss: 20.1 points, 8.7 rebounds, 12.3 assists, 2.9 steals, 0.4 blocks, 5.1 turnovers
- 38.3% FG, 31.1% 3PT (4.1 attempts), 41.4% 2PT (9.4 attempts), 69.5% FT (3.8 attempts; .282 FTr), 47.0% TS (87 TS+)
- +1.6 BPM (1.5 off; 0.1 def)

Giddey:
- 26.9 minutes per game
- 12.7 points, 6.9 rebounds, 5.6 assists, 0.8 steals, 0.6 blocks, 2.4 turnovers
- per 100 poss: 22.3 points, 12.1 rebounds, 9.8 assists, 1.5 steals, 1.0 blocks, 4.2 turnovers
- 46.8% FG, 35.8% 3PT (3.4 attempts), 52.0% 2PT (7.2 attempts), 79.2% FT (1.9 attempts; .180 FTr), 55.3% TS (96 TS+)
- +1.6 BPM (1.1 off; 0.5 def)

Rubio:
- 31.6 minutes per game
- 10.7 points, 4.1 rebounds, 7.7 assists, 2.3 steals, 0.1 blocks, 3.1 turnovers
- per 100 poss: 17.4 points, 6.7 rebounds, 12.6 assists, 3.8 steals, 0.2 blocks, 5.1 turnovers
- 35.9% FG, 31.7% 3PT (1.9 attempts), 37.0% 2PT (7.3 attempts), 80.0% FT (4.3 attempts; .466 FTr), 48.0% TS (90 TS+)
- +1.1 BPM (-0.6 off; 1.7 def)

I compared him early to Doncic. I think they are the same type of players, big strong wings that can get guys on their hip while playing slow and being skilled passers.

Key difference is Luka's far better shooting ability. But Giddey is improving. He doesn't have the bag of Luka but I think he could build to be a diet version.

I hope you’re right

[ogmagicfan]

Wagner is better than Banchero maybe for the time being, Giddey shoots almost 38% from 3, it's way better than having Cole there.

With how both Paolo & Franz aren't plus 3 pt shooters, we need a PG who cant shoot 3's at volume and off the dribble. Giddey does neither.

A C&S 3 pt shooter will struggle on our team (KCP for example)

Giddey's best situation is a 6th man on a team with bench shooters. I just dont see a scenario where building a team around him works out. When defense kick into another gear in the playoffs, players like him get exposed for who they really are. For both his offensive & defensive weaknesses

It's obvious Franz & Paolo need to improve on that. Giddey's not shooting high volume as it's not asked of him, maybe he could do it, he would be the best passer on your team, could do a whole lot worse than Giddey.

Both Paolo & Franz need to become at minimum consistent 35%+ 3 pt shooters at greater volume for the Magic to go to the next level

It's not that it isnt asked of him, he simply isnt capable. His shot mechanics/speed doesnt allow for him to be that kinda threat. His shot has improved, but the Magic need someone now who can provide that now, not take a risk on someone who hasnt shown any capability of such.

The passing we need, but not at the expense of the shooting/defense. The poor athleticism is also concerning cuz the Magic dont have many great athletes. Malik Monk would fit alot better and wouldnt cost as much $$$ wise.

[ogmagicfan]

Giddey's like a bigger, less athletic Kidd or Rubio. Looks like a slower Kidd when he gets the defensive rebound and pushes the break. Showing serious Dallas Mavericks Kidd vibes as a spot-up shooter this season. Last I checked he was doing like 38% 3PT on catch-and-shoot threes. Bigger size allows him to be more of a presence inside as a rebounder. Lack of comparative athleticism shows up most on defense.

Here's how the three compare at ages 21 and 22:

Kidd:
- 35.6 minutes per game
- 14.2 points, 6.1 rebounds, 8.7 assists, 2.0 steals, 0.3 blocks, 3.6 turnovers
- per 100 poss: 20.1 points, 8.7 rebounds, 12.3 assists, 2.9 steals, 0.4 blocks, 5.1 turnovers
- 38.3% FG, 31.1% 3PT (4.1 attempts), 41.4% 2PT (9.4 attempts), 69.5% FT (3.8 attempts; .282 FTr), 47.0% TS (87 TS+)
- +1.6 BPM (1.5 off; 0.1 def)

Giddey:
- 26.9 minutes per game
- 12.7 points, 6.9 rebounds, 5.6 assists, 0.8 steals, 0.6 blocks, 2.4 turnovers
- per 100 poss: 22.3 points, 12.1 rebounds, 9.8 assists, 1.5 steals, 1.0 blocks, 4.2 turnovers
- 46.8% FG, 35.8% 3PT (3.4 attempts), 52.0% 2PT (7.2 attempts), 79.2% FT (1.9 attempts; .180 FTr), 55.3% TS (96 TS+)
- +1.6 BPM (1.1 off; 0.5 def)

Rubio:
- 31.6 minutes per game
- 10.7 points, 4.1 rebounds, 7.7 assists, 2.3 steals, 0.1 blocks, 3.1 turnovers
- per 100 poss: 17.4 points, 6.7 rebounds, 12.6 assists, 3.8 steals, 0.2 blocks, 5.1 turnovers
- 35.9% FG, 31.7% 3PT (1.9 attempts), 37.0% 2PT (7.3 attempts), 80.0% FT (4.3 attempts; .466 FTr), 48.0% TS (90 TS+)
- +1.1 BPM (-0.6 off; 1.7 def)

Kidd & Rubio are in a different class when it comes to their defense/passing/athleticism.

Giddey has better shooting numbers, but it was a different NBA back then and expectations and offensive scoring for PGs was different back then opposed to when the Westbrook/Rose/Kyrie/Wall/Curry class of PGs came into the NBA and completely flipped how PGs are viewed.

I still see Giddey as a 6th man on a contender as his ceiling. Hides some of his physical shortcomings as a defender and shooter, lets him have the ball in his hands. I can't look too much into his annual empty stats in March, especially after how the playoffs went down last year.

[GQ Hot Dog]

Teams can always be built around ball-handling playmakers with good size. I've always appreciated guys like Giddey and Scottie Barnes, perhaps more than most, for this reason. I see future All-Star potential for both.

[Chi town]

The guy can pass and rebound. The questions were about defense and shooting. If he can keep shooting a decent percentage from 3, that would be huge for him.

The problem is that he's very much an on ball player at this point and he's just never going to get that many touches on a team with a true 1A type scorer. This stretch is undoubtedly good for his confidence, but it's not going to be his long term role. He's got to keep knocking down those corner 3's and figure out how to be productive as a secondary ball handler in more a glue role.

Depends on what kind of scorer it is, though. You put him next to Durant, and that's not really a problem. Same same with a guy like Steph. Any kind of movement shooter or post guy would not be a problem. It'd be primarily another above-break, on-ball guy who would be an issue.

Defensively, he's contesting like 60% more shots per game during this stretch and he's reasonably active getting deflections and stuff like that. I don't think anyone will confuse him for an All-D guy, but he's holding his own acceptably well.

Yep you put a shooter with gravity with him and it could fit.

This is why I love Tre Johnson for the Bulls. Elite IQ and movement shooting. Can be a playmaker but doesn’t need to be.

I’m starting to think Giddey could lead an elite offense with a good rim running lob threat at C and a good movement shooter with gravity. Both would creat even more gravity and space for him to operate and make best use of his passing chops.

[Chi town]

Giddey's like a bigger, less athletic Kidd or Rubio. Looks like a slower Kidd when he gets the defensive rebound and pushes the break. Showing serious Dallas Mavericks Kidd vibes as a spot-up shooter this season. Last I checked he was doing like 38% 3PT on catch-and-shoot threes. Bigger size allows him to be more of a presence inside as a rebounder. Lack of comparative athleticism shows up most on defense.

Here's how the three compare at ages 21 and 22:

Kidd:
- 35.6 minutes per game
- 14.2 points, 6.1 rebounds, 8.7 assists, 2.0 steals, 0.3 blocks, 3.6 turnovers
- per 100 poss: 20.1 points, 8.7 rebounds, 12.3 assists, 2.9 steals, 0.4 blocks, 5.1 turnovers
- 38.3% FG, 31.1% 3PT (4.1 attempts), 41.4% 2PT (9.4 attempts), 69.5% FT (3.8 attempts; .282 FTr), 47.0% TS (87 TS+)
- +1.6 BPM (1.5 off; 0.1 def)

Giddey:
- 26.9 minutes per game
- 12.7 points, 6.9 rebounds, 5.6 assists, 0.8 steals, 0.6 blocks, 2.4 turnovers
- per 100 poss: 22.3 points, 12.1 rebounds, 9.8 assists, 1.5 steals, 1.0 blocks, 4.2 turnovers
- 46.8% FG, 35.8% 3PT (3.4 attempts), 52.0% 2PT (7.2 attempts), 79.2% FT (1.9 attempts; .180 FTr), 55.3% TS (96 TS+)
- +1.6 BPM (1.1 off; 0.5 def)

Rubio:
- 31.6 minutes per game
- 10.7 points, 4.1 rebounds, 7.7 assists, 2.3 steals, 0.1 blocks, 3.1 turnovers
- per 100 poss: 17.4 points, 6.7 rebounds, 12.6 assists, 3.8 steals, 0.2 blocks, 5.1 turnovers
- 35.9% FG, 31.7% 3PT (1.9 attempts), 37.0% 2PT (7.3 attempts), 80.0% FT (4.3 attempts; .466 FTr), 48.0% TS (90 TS+)
- +1.1 BPM (-0.6 off; 1.7 def)

Kidd & Rubio are in a different class when it comes to their defense/passing/athleticism.

Giddey has better shooting numbers, but it was a different NBA back then and expectations and offensive scoring for PGs was different back then opposed to when the Westbrook/Rose/Kyrie/Wall/Curry class of PGs came into the NBA and completely flipped how PGs are viewed.

I still see Giddey as a 6th man on a contender as his ceiling. Hides some of his physical shortcomings as a defender and shooter, lets him have the ball in his hands. I can't look too much into his annual empty stats in March, especially after how the playoffs went down last year.

Are you watching full games or highlights?

I’d agree about empty stats and 2nd unit PG until the last 25 games when he has played both ends of the court much different. It’s way more than him just making more shots.

[Anderson Hunt]

It speaks to the low-level of executive acumen that he will probably get paid far more than he's worth. I'm not just picking on Giddey.

How many guys start miraculously playing well in their contract year? Too many to name.

Giddey's a good player when he's given a role that suits him. The problem is that the role that best suits him is hard to come by on a winning team.

His game isn't portable.