Is Jokic the most productive offensive player ever?

[Rubios]

Hi, new to the forum and late to this talk because of a login problem (from my side, thx admins).

Bit of context: Spaniard (so excuse my broken English if necessary), uninterrumpted big fan since the beginning of the 2nd Bulls' 3-peat.

Taking into account just regular stats (I'm making a point about the rebounds later) and efficiency, I believe I could just stop here.

But let's add all his passing that's not an assist but still builds their team offense and improves and involves his mates better than any PG I've ever seen. He touches more balls than no one ever has, his usage rate is only... the 30th in the League or so?
And he averages barely 3 TO per game.
I'm sure all of you have done this, but when equalizing his stats per 100 possessions they get even more insane.

*About the rebounding. Averaging almost 13 per game means your team has 13 more possessions -duh-, and the other team has 13 less.
I often see this stat taken for granted as "he's big", but 13 rbs impact both sides of the court is huge IMO.

Thks for the insight.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

What does "productive" mean, in this context?
Imo he's best, but you might be asking something different.

[hauntedcomputer]

Producing stats, probably.

Producing wins, not so much.

See the other dozen Joke-off threads.

[Rubios]

No player can win by himself, IMO.
Jokic elevates his mates ever further than LeBron did, again IMHO.

Producing his team's (not his own) most effective offensive outcome.

[UglyBugBall]

No, if you consider stat inflation MJ was more productive, so was prime Kobe and LeBron. I'd argue Luka is more productive right now, especially if you are the playoffs where Jokic regresses. Points matter more than assists, because assists depend on multiple factors outside the passers control. Points are a pure reflection of individual production and Jokic is not at the top there.

[tsherkin]

No, if you consider stat inflation MJ was more productive, so was prime Kobe and LeBron. I'd argue Luka is more productive right now, especially if you are the playoffs where Jokic regresses. Points matter more than assists, because assists depend on multiple factors outside the passers control. Points are a pure reflection of individual production and Jokic is not at the top there.

Kobe was not more offensively productive than Jokic. He scored more points per possession. That is not the same thing. We have been laboring against the idea of raw PPG being that important for like 70 years now, because that's the reality of the game. And Jokic's productivity on offense in the playoffs is immense...

[bledredwine]

Jordan was the most freakish dominant force we’ve seen.

But Jokic has to be up there in the top five.

We’ve seen quite a few players average triple or near triple doubles since the three point boom and spread court, heck we even saw Embiid average freakish PER numbers before injury took him out, so it’s hard to judge in this era.

[The Master]

In terms of 'nominal' production, yeah, he is.

Adjusted to their eras, you can argue (production+impact) for MJ, Magic and LeBron. Just imagine prime LeBron with ~100 pace on a team shooting 40 3s, not 18, with current space, or MJ under these circumstances. Peak Steph thanks to his off-ball gravity as well - and that's top5, MAYBE you can include peak Bird as well, these late prime seasons of his when he was averaging 29-30ppg as a point forward were crazy. These players were providing GOAT-level scoring/playmaking or top-tier scoring AND playmaking (in case of Steph that's 'off-ball playmaking').

So yeah, regardless of stats inflation - Jokic is AT LEAST ~top5 offensive player ever.

[70sFan]

In terms of 'nominal' production, yeah, he is.

Adjusted to their eras, you can argue (production+impact) for MJ, Magic and LeBron. Just imagine prime LeBron with ~100 pace on a team shooting 40 3s, not 18, with current space, or MJ under these circumstances. Peak Steph thanks to his off-ball gravity as well - and that's top5, MAYBE you can include peak Bird as well, these late prime seasons of his when he was averaging 29-30ppg as a point forward were crazy. These players were providing GOAT-level scoring/playmaking or top-tier scoring AND playmaking (in case of Steph that's 'off-ball playmaking').

So yeah, regardless of stats inflation - Jokic is AT LEAST ~top5 offensive player ever.

There is quite clear top 7 offensive players ever in my opinion:

Oscar
Magic
Jordan
Nash
James
Curry
Jokic

These players were so good that you can create basically any order and be good with that. Some people include Bird as 8th guy (which you mentioned), so I guess we can have him here as well, although I am a bit lower on Bird than most people.

[manlisten]

How does a guy who averaged 50/25 over a full season always get left out of these convos?

[The Master]

Oscar
Magic
Jordan
Nash
James
Curry
Jokic

These players were so good that you can create basically any order and be good with that. Some people include Bird as 8th guy (which you mentioned), so I guess we can have him here as well, although I am a bit lower on Bird than most people.

Forgot about Robertson. I'm lower on Bird for his playoff shortcomings/defense as well - but his peak offensive years (both boxscore-wise and in terms of Celtics' offense) were amazing.

I'm not as high on Nash though, from comparative perspective - as great as he was obviously - I do believe he was benefiting from playing on top shooting/offense-oriented/fast-paced team vs his era (he allowed playing like that in the first place, so it's not a criticism per se) to the level he wouldn't have benefited as much nowadays. But he's a good candidate for the convo as well.

[AleksandarN]

Hi, new to the forum and late to this talk because of a login problem (from my side, thx admins).

Bit of context: Spaniard (so excuse my broken English if necessary), uninterrumpted big fan since the beginning of the 2nd Bulls' 3-peat.

Taking into account just regular stats (I'm making a point about the rebounds later) and efficiency, I believe I could just stop here.

But let's add all his passing that's not an assist but still builds their team offense and improves and involves his mates better than any PG I've ever seen. He touches more balls than no one ever has, his usage rate is only... the 30th in the League or so?
And he averages barely 3 TO per game.
I'm sure all of you have done this, but when equalizing his stats per 100 possessions they get even more insane.

*About the rebounding. Averaging almost 13 per game means your team has 13 more possessions -duh-, and the other team has 13 less.
I often see this stat taken for granted as "he's big", but 13 rbs impact both sides of the court is huge IMO.

Thks for the insight.

Welcome to Realgm we need more fans of Jokic on here

[CobraCommander]

No player can win by himself, IMO.
Jokic elevates his mates ever further than LeBron did, again IMHO.

Producing his team's (not his own) most effective offensive outcome.

Lebron went to the finals pretty much every year in his prime with a bunch of bad players - lebrons prime was better than Jokics because he just got more out of his teammates and lebrons teammates were rarely as good as jokics - I love jokic but lebrons peak was higher - LeBron got his team to the finals and was elite on both ends while having some of the worse teammates

[cupcakesnake]

Points matter more than assists, because assists depend on multiple factors outside the passers control. Points are a pure reflection of individual production and Jokic is not at the top there.

I don't really have any idea what this statement means. Points are the point of the game, but every assists is also attached to points. I agree that not every recorded assist is directly responsible for the points. We see plenty of recorded assists where the assister is simply the guy who passed to the guy who created the shot on his own. However, plenty of points are also the direct result of someone else's playmaking. We all watch basketball and know the value of playmakers who create easy shots for teammates. Historically, the best offenses ever are built around offenseive engines that do this: whether it's Magic/Nash diming people up, or Curry/Dirk creating easy offense for teammates with his gravity.

Your statement doesn't avoid creating a double standard. The stat doesn't always tell us the whole story. This counts for points as well as assists.

What we do know about Jokic is: he's a monstrous source of playmaking who creates a wide variety of shots for teammates. He draws attention with his scoring, finds cutters, does incredible work as a screener and hub, he throws touchdown passes in transition. Whether Jokic averaged 5 assists or 10, I wouldn't really care. It's clear as day on tape or in the numbers that he creates high quality offense.

I'm also unclear why you're bringing up points vs. assists when Jokic gets a whole lot of both. This is a guy who averages 37 points per 100 in the playoffs for his career on over 60%ts. That's a top 4 playoff scoring rate ever, while being 7th all-time in playoff efficiency. We're simply talking about one of the best playoff scorers ever.

[Rubios]

Thks for the insight, man I love this forum. Non toxic and most of you are very knowledgeable.

But... I just... I mean, he's not even my favorite current player (regarding personality, yes, maybe all-time). He's amazing to watch but I enjoy killer-mode Luka or a crafty driver like Shai even more, i.e.

That being said,

1- An assist is an assist, at least in the Nuggets*. He's never been surrounded by extraordinary shooters; most are lops or passes where his mate gets the ball in an actually great situation to score.
*Sure, assists stats are somewhat flawed but they have been forever. We cannot directly translate assists to points but in his case is as close as it gets.

2- Efficiency. His passing, 2s and now 3s success % is unmatched. He produces -by far- the most points per touch and touches more balls than anyone ever has, barely losing 3 of them per game.

Serious question: is this not factual? I agree that he's a product of this era and we could try to imagine what peak LeBron or Jordan or Magic or Bird would've been able to do in today's tactical shift. And it's a legitimate debate I'm interested in.

But, as for now, no one has ever produced a greater offensive outcome for his team even equalizing for pace. This is factually correct, isn't it?
Including his 2023 PO run.
Actual question, again.


Now, an opinion and a recall on something that often gets overlooked, IMHO.

Opinion: I'm pretty confident he could score huge numbers vs... anyone, if he wanted to. Look at what he did vs AD or Gobert.

Overlooked stuff: 13 rebounds means your team has 13 more possessions. Not trivial at all.

Thks again for the insight.

[kobe_vs_jordan]

Absolutely imo. I can’t see a case against it honestly. Wins a team game.

Can argue players like Jordan , LeBron and curry demanded more defensive attention. But it’s hard to quantify that. Some of that is just positional differences

[kobe_vs_jordan]

Thks for the insight, man I love this forum. Non toxic and most of you are very knowledgeable.

But... I just... I mean, he's not even my favorite current player (regarding personality, yes, maybe all-time). He's amazing to watch but I enjoy killer-mode Luka or a crafty driver like Shai even more, i.e.

That being said,

1- An assist is an assist, at least in the Nuggets*. He's never been surrounded by extraordinary shooters; most are lops or passes where his mate gets the ball in an actually great situation to score.
*Sure, assists stats are somewhat flawed but they have been forever. We cannot directly translate assists to points but in his case is as close as it gets.

2- Efficiency. His passing, 2s and now 3s success % is unmatched. He produces -by far- the most points per touch and touches more balls than anyone ever has, barely losing 3 of them per game.

Serious question: is this not factual? I agree that he's a product of this era and we could try to imagine what peak LeBron or Jordan or Magic or Bird would've been able to do in today's tactical shift. And it's a legitimate debate I'm interested in.

But, as for now, no one has ever produced a greater offensive outcome for his team even equalizing for pace. This is factually correct, isn't it?
Including his 2023 PO run.
Actual question, again.


Now, an opinion and a recall on something that often gets overlooked, IMHO.

Opinion: I'm pretty confident he could score huge numbers vs... anyone, if he wanted to. Look at what he did vs AD or Gobert.

Overlooked stuff: 13 rebounds means your team has 13 more possessions. Not trivial at all.

Thks again for the insight.

I disagree with product of an era since he top 3 in multiple stats. No reason to think he wouldn’t still be top 3 of most of those stats in a different era.

[nate33]

The answer to this question is "yes". Jokic is pretty clearly the greatest offensive player of all time. He is posting 30, 13 and 10 while leading the league in TS% added. And the fact that two of his teammates (Gordon and Braun) also rank in the top 10 in TS%, and another (Porter) ranks in the top 40, is further proof of his ability to elevate his teammates. When Jokic is on the floor, the Nuggets posted an ORtg of 127, which is the best in league history by a lot. (The Celtics posted 124 last year. Prior to that, nobody has exceeded 121.)

[scrabbarista]

No player can win by himself, IMO.
Jokic elevates his mates ever further than LeBron did, again IMHO.

Producing his team's (not his own) most effective offensive outcome.

Lebron went to the finals pretty much every year in his prime with a bunch of bad players - lebrons prime was better than Jokics because he just got more out of his teammates and lebrons teammates were rarely as good as jokics - I love jokic but lebrons peak was higher - LeBron got his team to the finals and was elite on both ends while having some of the worse teammates

Didn't go to the Finals:

'08, '09, '10, '19

Didn't have worse teammates than Jokic:

'11, '12, '13, '14, ' 15, '16, '17, '18, '20

I see a pattern.

Bonus, played in a much worse conference than Jokic:

'07, '08, '09, '10, '11, '12, '13, '14, '15, '16, '17, '18

C'mon, Cobra. You're better than that "rarely as good" comment. Jokic's best teammate has never been an All-Star, and hasn't even been healthy for the majority of Nugget playoff runs during Jokic's prime. Meanwhile, James has played with First Team guys and/or Top 3 MVP guys for most of his career. (Plus referee help for his teams, but no one wants to hear that, I get it.)

[1993Playoffs]

Maybe but I feel like prime LeBron could lead the nuggets to more wins.