Have Giannis and Jokic "changed the game"?

[JonHeist]

No, the game changed to allow Giannis to do this every dribble.

I wanna find that post with the crazy old internet forum thread from the early 90s complaining about how much MJ carried the ball lol

[ReasonablySober]

I think Durant changed the game more than these two uniquely skilled guys with hard to replicate games.

Guys like Wemby are basically modeling a lot of their offensive game after KD. Not saying they can do it as well as KD but the idea of developing a front facing game and bombing 3s is easier to try and imitate for big man prospects than the Giannis bull in a china shop or Jokic point guard games.

KD's only doing what Dirk did first.

[Black Jack]

I think Durant changed the game more than these two uniquely skilled guys with hard to replicate games.

Guys like Wemby are basically modeling a lot of their offensive game after KD. Not saying they can do it as well as KD but the idea of developing a front facing game and bombing 3s is easier to try and imitate for big man prospects than the Giannis bull in a china shop or Jokic point guard games.

KD's only doing what Dirk did first.

Dirk was more of a postup, turnaround guy to me. KD isn't really the same playing style, he's more of a faceup guy and floater outside. I actually don't like Wemby types imitating KD's game, it neutralizes size. KD is able to really catch and either shoot or dribble shake then shoot in a way that I never saw a guy that tall/long do before.

That said...If we're gonna go there, I never thought Dirk did too much offensively that Bird & MJ didn't already as a guy with 4 size (Bird) and with a lethal turnaround game (old Jordan). his size made it super effective though.

Dirk got the one legged fadeaway jumper from Bird for sure.

[ReasonablySober]

I think Durant changed the game more than these two uniquely skilled guys with hard to replicate games.

Guys like Wemby are basically modeling a lot of their offensive game after KD. Not saying they can do it as well as KD but the idea of developing a front facing game and bombing 3s is easier to try and imitate for big man prospects than the Giannis bull in a china shop or Jokic point guard games.

KD's only doing what Dirk did first.

Dirk was more of a postup, turnaround guy to me. KD isn't really the same playing style, he's more of a faceup guy and floater outside. I actually don't like Wemby types imitating KD's game, it neutralizes size. KD is able to really catch and either shoot or dribble shake then shoot in a way that I never saw a guy that tall/long do before.

That said...If we're gonna go there, I never thought Dirk did too much offensively that Bird & MJ didn't already as a guy with 4 size (Bird) and with a lethal turnaround game (old Jordan). his size made it super effective though.

Dirk got the one legged fadeaway jumper from Bird for sure.

Dirk's not only the first seven foot high volume three point shooter, but he was also the first true Euro franchise player. After him it became common place to see Euros go in the first round, and in the lottery. Bird was 6'9" and for his career averaged 2.4 3FG attempts per 100 possessions. Dirk averaged over twice that. Teams spent years trying to find the next version of him from overseas.

[Black Jack]

KD's only doing what Dirk did first.

Dirk was more of a postup, turnaround guy to me. KD isn't really the same playing style, he's more of a faceup guy and floater outside. I actually don't like Wemby types imitating KD's game, it neutralizes size. KD is able to really catch and either shoot or dribble shake then shoot in a way that I never saw a guy that tall/long do before.

That said...If we're gonna go there, I never thought Dirk did too much offensively that Bird & MJ didn't already as a guy with 4 size (Bird) and with a lethal turnaround game (old Jordan). his size made it super effective though.

Dirk got the one legged fadeaway jumper from Bird for sure.

Dirk's not only the first seven foot high volume three point shooter, but he was also the first true Euro franchise player. After him it became common place to see Euros go in the first round, and in the lottery. Bird was 6'9" and for his career averaged 2.4 3FG attempts per 100 possessions. Dirk averaged over twice that. Teams spent years trying to find the next version of him from overseas.

I'm talking playing style influence as in, guys trying to imitate though. Dirk took a lot from Bird and MJ, but was taller.

I didn't see a lot of wannabe Dirks honestly. Teams may have tried to find them but it didn't work well. I think he's in the same category as Jokic and Giannis where theres just not that many 7 footers that skilled. Who was imitating Dirk's turnaround one legged fadeaway? Whereas I do think Durant has inspired a lot more copycats.

It's not anti Dirk to say he just didn't inspire a lot of clones.

[ReasonablySober]

Dirk was more of a postup, turnaround guy to me. KD isn't really the same playing style, he's more of a faceup guy and floater outside. I actually don't like Wemby types imitating KD's game, it neutralizes size. KD is able to really catch and either shoot or dribble shake then shoot in a way that I never saw a guy that tall/long do before.

That said...If we're gonna go there, I never thought Dirk did too much offensively that Bird & MJ didn't already as a guy with 4 size (Bird) and with a lethal turnaround game (old Jordan). his size made it super effective though.

Dirk got the one legged fadeaway jumper from Bird for sure.

Dirk's not only the first seven foot high volume three point shooter, but he was also the first true Euro franchise player. After him it became common place to see Euros go in the first round, and in the lottery. Bird was 6'9" and for his career averaged 2.4 3FG attempts per 100 possessions. Dirk averaged over twice that. Teams spent years trying to find the next version of him from overseas.

I'm talking playing style influence as in, guys trying to imitate though. Dirk took a lot from Bird and MJ, but was taller.

I didn't see a lot of wannabe Dirks honestly. Teams may have tried to find them but it didn't work well. I think he's in the same category as Jokic and Giannis where theres just not that many 7 footers that skilled. Who was imitating Dirk's turnaround one legged fadeaway? Whereas I do think Durant has inspired a lot more copycats.

It's not anti Dirk to say he just didn't inspire a lot of clones.

Dirk had that one-legged fadeaway, but that isn't how he played. He was a face up seven footer with three point range. Turkoglu, Radmanovic, Okur, Tskitishvili, Darko, Cabarkapa, Bargnani, Jianlian, and Gallinari were all 6'10"+ international face up bigs drafted in Dirk's wake. Those kind of guys didn't exist before him.

[Black Jack]

Dirk's not only the first seven foot high volume three point shooter, but he was also the first true Euro franchise player. After him it became common place to see Euros go in the first round, and in the lottery. Bird was 6'9" and for his career averaged 2.4 3FG attempts per 100 possessions. Dirk averaged over twice that. Teams spent years trying to find the next version of him from overseas.

I'm talking playing style influence as in, guys trying to imitate though. Dirk took a lot from Bird and MJ, but was taller.

I didn't see a lot of wannabe Dirks honestly. Teams may have tried to find them but it didn't work well. I think he's in the same category as Jokic and Giannis where theres just not that many 7 footers that skilled. Who was imitating Dirk's turnaround one legged fadeaway? Whereas I do think Durant has inspired a lot more copycats.

It's not anti Dirk to say he just didn't inspire a lot of clones.

Dirk had that one-legged fadeaway, but that isn't how he played. He was a face up seven footer with three point range. Turkoglu, Radmanovic, Okur, Tskitishvili, Darko, Cabarkapa, Bargnani, Jianlian, and Gallinari were all 6'10"+ international face up bigs drafted in Dirk's wake. Those kind of guys didn't exist before him.

Toni Kukoc is 6-11 and did it first.

[Profound23]

No, the game changed to allow Giannis to do this every dribble.

I wanna find that post with the crazy old internet forum thread from the early 90s complaining about how much MJ carried the ball lol

Anyone who thinks that's a carry.... please don't watch any Allen Iverson highlights and definitely don't watch Haliburton in the Finals. Seriously, there are a lot of things you could bring up about Giannis....they allow him more than 10 seconds at the FT line (as a Bucks fan I wish they would call it more as it would make him change his routine which has made his FT shooting worse...but your complaint is this picture?

[NBA_is_cringe]

No, the game changed to allow Giannis to do this every dribble.

I wanna find that post with the crazy old internet forum thread from the early 90s complaining about how much MJ carried the ball lol

yea that is a good reason why most people with a brain weren't interested in the NBA anymore, changing the rules to enhance MJ's stardom. giannis basically isn't even a basketball player, its WWE at this point (although presented as not WWE, making it pure cringe)

[MarcusBrody]

I'm with most people thinking that Jokic changed the game to a somewhat minor extent, but noticeably, while I'm not sure that Giannis changed the game.

There were centers that passed well in the past, but none of them with the volume that Jokic has exhibited. Wilt is the one who came closest in volume - and Wilt is a really underrated passer - but he worked much more out of the low post. That's the area where a lot of very good passing centers worked out of, and while Jokic will work from there, he more often works out of the high post and I think that's more where we're seeing his influence.

The dribble handoff becoming as ubiquitous as it has - and with its requirement for a center that can make reads out of it are heavily influenced by Jokic/Denver's action. Same with the inverted pick and roll. I don't think these changes are nearly as drastic as what Steph or Harden brought, but they're notable in what the league is doing right now and it has become important enough that it appears to be affecting how personnel are evaluated.

I'm less able to point out any specific change that Giannis brought about. He's a great player but he is a physical dominator. Someone mentioned the "wall" style defense, but I don't know if it was new enough or copied enough that I'd call that "changed the game". It could have been done prior to the change in defensive rules then within a few years sagging off and bringing mid help if he drove was the defensive standard on young LeBron. But he was a better passer, so bringing the second man was harder and so teams backed off it as he refined that part of his game. Giannis has never reached LeBron levels as a passer, but he has improved that part of his game a lot (and shot better in the midrange, so the defense that the Raps, Miami, etc would run on him in the past isn't as effective anymore.

Like someone said earlier, I think teams always knew that they'd want a 6'10" uber-athletic freight train dude to attack the basket. There just aren't many Giannises out there. I don't think teams were really looking for people to play the Jokic role in the years before his rise to prominence.

I do think that some of what Jokic achieved was what small ball was aiming at. They were essentially trying to get skilled players into the 5 position to enable more versatility. What Jokic did was show that size really provided some major advantages in that exterior role even when you were giving up speed. Jokic's screening enable a lot of Denver's actions and his ability to back players down affects how you can play those actions. You see similar things with Sabonis, Sengun, even Bam at times - who I consider more what looked like the archetype of a future small ball center than being influenced by Jokic.

[BelgradeNugget]

Dirk's not only the first seven foot high volume three point shooter, but he was also the first true Euro franchise player. After him it became common place to see Euros go in the first round, and in the lottery. Bird was 6'9" and for his career averaged 2.4 3FG attempts per 100 possessions. Dirk averaged over twice that. Teams spent years trying to find the next version of him from overseas.

I'm talking playing style influence as in, guys trying to imitate though. Dirk took a lot from Bird and MJ, but was taller.

I didn't see a lot of wannabe Dirks honestly. Teams may have tried to find them but it didn't work well. I think he's in the same category as Jokic and Giannis where theres just not that many 7 footers that skilled. Who was imitating Dirk's turnaround one legged fadeaway? Whereas I do think Durant has inspired a lot more copycats.

It's not anti Dirk to say he just didn't inspire a lot of clones.

Dirk had that one-legged fadeaway, but that isn't how he played. He was a face up seven footer with three point range. Turkoglu, Radmanovic, Okur, Tskitishvili, Darko, Cabarkapa, Bargnani, Jianlian, and Gallinari were all 6'10"+ international face up bigs drafted in Dirk's wake. Those kind of guys didn't exist before him.

Hm, he wasn't even first 6'10"+ German face up big. It was Detlef Schrempf. At the same time when Dirk played there was another european 6'10"+ star player and they played a lot against each other and guarded each other - Peja Stojakovic. Faceup sweet shooting center at the time when majority of them played with their backs to the basket - Rick Smiths. Center that was shooting 40%+ of his shots from 3 - Sam Perkins...

[BelgradeNugget]

So let's see

Oscar Robertson -> Magic Johnson
Dr J, Skywalker David Thompson -> MJ
Detlef Schrempf, Rick Smiths -> Dirk
Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf -> Steph Curry

Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf even introduced protesting National anthem and was banned from the NBA at the time, before it was desirable behavior in the bubble...

...but no one was hooking, and foul baiting on offense (Divac and Many were famous floppers on defense) before Harden. He influenced a lot of players like Trae, Embiid, SGA...I mean have you ever seen players guarding with their hands behind their backs before Harden?

[Lalouie]

Actual question, doesn't have a strong opinion on it.

Meaning Point Guard/Center with a case for best passer ever, a shot menace from anywhere and a unique way of playmaking touching the ball more times than any other player in history but keeping his usage% surprisingly low.

And a 3-4-5 that can cover half court with 4 strides, jump over anyone AND has a great eurostep.


*Important: being great or even the best has nothing to do with changing the game. KD has a case for the best scorer ever. Kawhi was the best player in the league for a small window of time. Kobe. As great as they were, they didn't bring any riddle to the opponent's team HC, anything unique or unseen. They were "just" insanely good.

Curry, LeBron (a guy that size moving that way and developing god-like playmaking skills), Harden did and most likely Wemby will do.

Do you consider Jokic and/or Giannis to shift any paradigm/s of basketball?

Thks!

if by "change the game" you mean as a template for the future.................

not jokic because jokic has a twice in a lifetime skill. the other was walton. you won't see another like jokic.

giannis is just insanely physically gifted, so no one's following his footsteps for a while either. he's a 7' westbrook only longer.

if you mean just impossible to matchup against during their career, i think everyone's going to taste their dust as long as they play.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Can you enlight us what Duncan had said that made him similar to Jokic regarding the aspect I mentioned?

Stating Jokic is not about fancy dunks or new plays. How he only truly cares about basketball. And how he changed the game by having these attributes.

You literally described Tim Duncan. I can't wait to hear how Shai is changing the game next by how stoic and how much he loves his teammates next and how the league has never seen it.

You didn't understand my point then.
Jokic showed you can be one of the best basketball players ever without even liking the game. I still don't see how it is related to Duncan.
It's actually an inspiration to all the people in the world. He's shown you can be the absolute best at your job, even in a huge team sport, while openly valuing your real passions above it. He proves true greatness comes from mastering your craft, not from faking an all-consuming "love of the game."

Jokic obviously loves basketball.
He just doesn't like all the bs around it

[Ryoga Hibiki]

No because it’s impossible to replicate them. It’s like asking if Shaq changed the game. No because there’s only one Shaq. You cant decide as a player to model your game after Shaq. So too with Giannis and Jokic.

Jokic showed that you can have the center be the primary playmaker in a great offense. Passing centers existed before but they were a secondary aspect of an offense that was still ran by a guard or a wing player that moves with the ball.

Jokic creates from a mostly stationary position by finding the players that move into space he creates through his gravity as a shooter and scoring threat.

I am not sure about this. Jokic can do what he does because he is exceptional in many skills that can facilitate his passing a lot more. I don't think you can really duplicate that. I don't think there are a lot of teams out looking to run a lot more high post center plays than before. You need unique centers to do that. To me, Curry changed the game because it made people think a lot more about utilizing the 3 point shot in their offensive schemes. I think Harden also really popularized the step back.

What Sabonis has been doing is pretty similar, jus obviously at a lower level

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Jokic changed the game in that we see offenses we did not see bfore him. The same is only true for Curry and maybe Dirk in the 2000's. Giannis is a super athletic guy that is hard to stop but that isnt so original. The stans trying to force LeBron into this topic are just here for laughs.

Ginnis actually was a novelty, a great scorer off the dribble with no jumper. Not really a common archetype at all

[Ryoga Hibiki]

I think Durant changed the game more than these two uniquely skilled guys with hard to replicate games.

Guys like Wemby are basically modeling a lot of their offensive game after KD. Not saying they can do it as well as KD but the idea of developing a front facing game and bombing 3s is easier to try and imitate for big man prospects than the Giannis bull in a china shop or Jokic point guard games.

KD's only doing what Dirk did first.

Dirk was more of a postup, turnaround guy to me. KD isn't really the same playing style, he's more of a faceup guy and floater outside. I actually don't like Wemby types imitating KD's game, it neutralizes size. KD is able to really catch and either shoot or dribble shake then shoot in a way that I never saw a guy that tall/long do before.

That said...If we're gonna go there, I never thought Dirk did too much offensively that Bird & MJ didn't already as a guy with 4 size (Bird) and with a lethal turnaround game (old Jordan). his size made it super effective though.

Dirk got the one legged fadeaway jumper from Bird for sure.

Young Dirk wasn't a post up guy

[Ryoga Hibiki]

So let's see

Oscar Robertson -> Magic Johnson
Dr J, Skywalker David Thompson -> MJ
Detlef Schrempf, Rick Smiths -> Dirk
Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf -> Steph Curry

Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf even introduced protesting National anthem and was banned from the NBA at the time, before it was desirable behavior in the bubble...

...but no one was hooking, and foul baiting on offense (Divac and Many were famous floppers on defense) before Harden. He influenced a lot of players like Trae, Embiid, SGA...I mean have you ever seen players guarding with their hands behind their backs before Harden?

Rick Smits to Dirk? Not really
Even Schrempf, this is more because he's german. There were tall ball handlers, but Dirk had center height, the shooting and the ability to put the ball on the floor. That was unique.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Actual question, doesn't have a strong opinion on it.

Meaning Point Guard/Center with a case for best passer ever, a shot menace from anywhere and a unique way of playmaking touching the ball more times than any other player in history but keeping his usage% surprisingly low.

And a 3-4-5 that can cover half court with 4 strides, jump over anyone AND has a great eurostep.


*Important: being great or even the best has nothing to do with changing the game. KD has a case for the best scorer ever. Kawhi was the best player in the league for a small window of time. Kobe. As great as they were, they didn't bring any riddle to the opponent's team HC, anything unique or unseen. They were "just" insanely good.

Curry, LeBron (a guy that size moving that way and developing god-like playmaking skills), Harden did and most likely Wemby will do.

Do you consider Jokic and/or Giannis to shift any paradigm/s of basketball?

Thks!

if by "change the game" you mean as a template for the future.................

not jokic because jokic has a twice in a lifetime skill. the other was walton. you won't see another like jokic.

giannis is just insanely physically gifted, so no one's following his footsteps for a while either. he's a 7' westbrook only longer.

if you mean just impossible to matchup against during their career, i think everyone's going to taste their dust as long as they play.

you can have a lesser version than Jokic. You can't really play a lesser Giannis (who's not unique, though, Zion is very similar)

[Lalouie]

Actual question, doesn't have a strong opinion on it.

Meaning Point Guard/Center with a case for best passer ever, a shot menace from anywhere and a unique way of playmaking touching the ball more times than any other player in history but keeping his usage% surprisingly low.

And a 3-4-5 that can cover half court with 4 strides, jump over anyone AND has a great eurostep.


*Important: being great or even the best has nothing to do with changing the game. KD has a case for the best scorer ever. Kawhi was the best player in the league for a small window of time. Kobe. As great as they were, they didn't bring any riddle to the opponent's team HC, anything unique or unseen. They were "just" insanely good.

Curry, LeBron (a guy that size moving that way and developing god-like playmaking skills), Harden did and most likely Wemby will do.

Do you consider Jokic and/or Giannis to shift any paradigm/s of basketball?

Thks!

if by "change the game" you mean as a template for the future.................

not jokic because jokic has a twice in a lifetime skill. the other was walton. you won't see another like jokic.

giannis is just insanely physically gifted, so no one's following his footsteps for a while either. he's a 7' westbrook only longer.

if you mean just impossible to matchup against during their career, i think everyone's going to taste their dust as long as they play.

you can have a lesser version than Jokic. You can't really play a lesser Giannis (who's not unique, though, Zion is very similar)

i think jokic will be hard to emulate

1....look how long it took from walton to jokic
2....also it is all upstairs - that is where genius resides
3....the game today is all about athleticism. athleticism is scouted. smarts is not,,,and smarts is just plain hard to quantify. athleticism is an easier fallback in case things don't work out because athleticism has a baseline. the baseline for smarts is being stupid. i think the scouts feel safer with athleticism

i just don't think players grow up wanting to emulate smarts. you either got it or you don't(like say lonzo) because the entry level for smarts to qualify as a pro is way too high

so if your talking about levels of smarts, the guys who are almost,,,i think thats way to hard and in terms of quantity. the nba just doesn't invest in smarts. and at center that's like unicorn level entry point