Do the Suns have an irrationally high opinion of Devin Booker?

[MrBigShot]

Devin Booker is one of the most overrated chuckers in the league. He will never win a championship as a key guy, and the Suns should get rid of him while they have the chance. I volunteer my own Detroit Pistons to take him off their hands.

[Mr Puddles]

I already told you, Booker was carried by his better team. The #s prove it. Easier to make to make the finals when you’re not a bus driver

Let's get into specifics. Let's have a look at this 'better team'

Against the exact same Kawhi-less clippers squad:

The Suns supporting cast goes 2-0 with

• Bridges (3rd year player, first time in play-offs)
• Ayton (3rd year player, first time in play-offs)
• Payne (first time in play-offs)
• Cam Johnson (Second year player, first time in play-offs)
• Jae Crowder( play-offs vet)
• Torey Graig (play-offs vet)

Jazz supporting cast goes 0-2, by an average 10 point differential:

• Gobert (Allstar, DPOY and playoff vet)
• Mike Conley (play-offs vet)
• Bogdanovic (play-offs vet)
• Royce O'Neal (play-offs vet)
• Joe Ingles ( play-offs vet)
• Favors (play-offs vet)

Where is this illusive advantage the Suns have that allowed Booker to take a backseat while going up 2-0 in the series, while Mitchel had to carry this allstar, DPOY and playoff-vet motley crew of players to a hard fought double digit loss 0-2 streak?

Devin Booker in 2021 playoffs:

-.4 BPM .066 WS/48 16.1 PER 56% TS


Until you address this you are saying nothing

Dude, how many times do I have to address this. For the last time, and then stop dancing around the issue and answer my question and stop filibustering:

Booker led his team in minutes played, scoring and was second in total assist, while going 12-4 in the western conference playoffs winning by +7 points on average during that run. When you're leading a hugely successful team in total minutes, total points, and are second in total assists, you're not 'taking a back seat' as you're arguing. You keep arguing that he was being carried by a supporting cast of largely inexperience role players and a guy who was 5th on the team in total minutes, without ever getting into specifics.

Now can you stop dancing around the issue and just answer the question already?

If Mitchell is this alpha dog, and Booker takes a back seat, how is it that the Jazz with a supporting cast of DPOY, Allstar, and quality experienced vets went 0-2 by a double digit average against the exact same Kawhi-less clippers team, a CP3-less Suns went 2-0 against with a supporting cast of 2nd/3rd year players in their first ever playoffs?

I've posted a very clear comparison between the supporting casts of both players above. Is it because Booker had Ayton instead of Gobert? Or maybe that Payne was the starting point guard instead of Mike Conley? Where is this obvious advance you're alluding to?

[Anticon]

Don't have much of an opinion on Booker either way.

But just did a deep dive on his impact stats...and man...based on that, irrationally high opinion is an understatement.

[SkyBill40]

Mitchell has literally made the playoffs 8 years in a row, Booker has only shown up..half that

Mind you, Kevin Durant and Chris Paul are both better than any teammate Mitchell has had.

For the past 3 years, the Cavs are 28-24 without Mitchell. The Jazz were 25-20 without Mitchell. The Phoenix Suns are 41-87 without Booker since his rookie year.

Devin Booker is a 10 year veteran with 4 winning seasons, so I can’t imagine his record is impressive in PHX

Edit - I just looked it up.

Booker is a career 48% win rate

Mitchell is a career 65% win rate

not even in the same galaxy

You’re overrating a dude that was carried to a finals by his team, he beat 3 injured teams to lose the finals.

If you switched places between Booker and Mitchell on those dreadful Suns teams, I doubt Mitchell has any more success than Booker. Let's be realistic here and stop the slander. It's a team game after all and Booker or Mitchell can only do so much individually.

We get it, dude: You hate Booker. Just be honest with yourself and everyone else and stop trying to puff your chest out as if you're receiving some award. Seriously.

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[Wallace_Wallace]

Devin Booker is one of the most overrated chuckers in the league. He will never win a championship as a key guy, and the Suns should get rid of him while they have the chance. I volunteer my own Detroit Pistons to take him off their hands.

Absolutely would try that. Since UWM’s headquarter is in Michigan, Ishbia should do Detroit a favor.

[Godymas]

Let's get into specifics. Let's have a look at this 'better team'

Against the exact same Kawhi-less clippers squad:

The Suns supporting cast goes 2-0 with

• Bridges (3rd year player, first time in play-offs)
• Ayton (3rd year player, first time in play-offs)
• Payne (first time in play-offs)
• Cam Johnson (Second year player, first time in play-offs)
• Jae Crowder( play-offs vet)
• Torey Graig (play-offs vet)

Jazz supporting cast goes 0-2, by an average 10 point differential:

• Gobert (Allstar, DPOY and playoff vet)
• Mike Conley (play-offs vet)
• Bogdanovic (play-offs vet)
• Royce O'Neal (play-offs vet)
• Joe Ingles ( play-offs vet)
• Favors (play-offs vet)

Where is this illusive advantage the Suns have that allowed Booker to take a backseat while going up 2-0 in the series, while Mitchel had to carry this allstar, DPOY and playoff-vet motley crew of players to a hard fought double digit loss 0-2 streak?

Devin Booker in 2021 playoffs:

-.4 BPM .066 WS/48 16.1 PER 56% TS


Until you address this you are saying nothing

Dude, how many times do I have to address this. For the last time, and then stop dancing around the issue and answer my question and stop filibustering:

Booker led his team in minutes played, scoring and was second in total assist, while going 12-4 in the western conference playoffs winning by +7 points on average during that run. When you're leading a hugely successful team in total minutes, total points, and are second in total assists, you're not 'taking a back seat' as you're arguing. You keep arguing that he was being carried by a supporting cast of largely inexperience role players and a guy who was 5th on the team in total minutes, without ever getting into specifics.

Now can you stop dancing around the issue and just answer the question already?

If Mitchell is this alpha dog, and Booker takes a back seat, how is it that the Jazz with a supporting cast of DPOY, Allstar, and quality experienced vets went 0-2 by a double digit average against the exact same Kawhi-less clippers team, a CP3-less Suns went 2-0 against with a supporting cast of 2nd/3rd year players in their first ever playoffs?

I've posted a very clear comparison between the supporting casts of both players above. Is it because Booker had Ayton instead of Gobert? Or maybe that Payne was the starting point guard instead of Mike Conley? Where is this obvious advance you're alluding to?

You’re crediting Booker for his team accomplishments while ignoring his low impact stats.

You lack fundamental knowledge about the game of basketball.

Go ahead and post the advanced stats of everyone that Booker played with.

DeAndre Ayton was better than Devin Booker in those playoffs. Chris Paul was better than Devin Booker in those playoffs.

Booker was inexperienced in those playoffs. It was his first playoffs.

Booker had a better team than Mitchell in those playoffs. Different teams have different matchups and strengths and weaknesses.

You lack fundamental knowledge about the game of
basketball.

[Godymas]

For the past 3 years, the Cavs are 28-24 without Mitchell. The Jazz were 25-20 without Mitchell. The Phoenix Suns are 41-87 without Booker since his rookie year.

Devin Booker is a 10 year veteran with 4 winning seasons, so I can’t imagine his record is impressive in PHX

Edit - I just looked it up.

Booker is a career 48% win rate

Mitchell is a career 65% win rate

not even in the same galaxy

You’re overrating a dude that was carried to a finals by his team, he beat 3 injured teams to lose the finals.

If you switched places between Booker and Mitchell on those dreadful Suns teams, I doubt Mitchell has any more success than Booker. Let's be realistic here and stop the slander. It's a team game after all and Booker or Mitchell can only do so much individually.

We get it, dude: You hate Booker. Just be honest with yourself and everyone else and stop trying to puff your chest out as if you're receiving some award. Seriously.

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Mind you, all I said is Donovan Mitchell is a tier above Devin Booker, and you say that I hate Devin Booker.

You have a problem

[NZB2323]

Back in 2022 I analyzed the best line-ups in the NBA that year and came to a shocking conclusion.

The Jazz were two teams. A Gobert team and a Mitchell team.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2180229&hilit=mitchell

Take a look.


Once you’re done there, drop in here: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2422927

So the best lineup the Jazz had didn’t have Mitchell in it, and that’s supposed to prove Mitchell was the bus driver?

I see you need things pointed out for you.

The 5th best line-up was Gobert

the 6th best line-up was Mitchell

if you want to argue that the difference in that ranking is meaningful rather than the real illustration, which is that there are two elite teams in Utah based on line-ups, then you’re not intelligent life worth communication with.

I asked you what impact stats showed Mitchell was the bus driver for the Jazz and Booker has never been the bus driver, and you provided me with 5 man play-by-play data that showed the best lineup the Jazz had didn’t have Mitchell in it.

If we go by play-by-play data, Mitchell is +2.5 on/off for his career and Booker is +2.9. In the playoffs Mitchell is +2.8 and Booker is +2.9. There’s no impact data that suggests these players are in different tiers.

And for 2021 on/off data:

Gobert: +19.1
Mitchell: -3.2
Booker: +3.1

I don’t think on/off data is the data you want to use to show Mitchell was the bus driver in 2021.

[SkyBill40]

Devin Booker is a 10 year veteran with 4 winning seasons, so I can’t imagine his record is impressive in PHX

Edit - I just looked it up.

Booker is a career 48% win rate

Mitchell is a career 65% win rate

not even in the same galaxy

You’re overrating a dude that was carried to a finals by his team, he beat 3 injured teams to lose the finals.

If you switched places between Booker and Mitchell on those dreadful Suns teams, I doubt Mitchell has any more success than Booker. Let's be realistic here and stop the slander. It's a team game after all and Booker or Mitchell can only do so much individually.

We get it, dude: You hate Booker. Just be honest with yourself and everyone else and stop trying to puff your chest out as if you're receiving some award. Seriously.

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Mind you, all I said is Donovan Mitchell is a tier above Devin Booker, and you say that I hate Devin Booker.

You have a problem

Seems pretty clear based on the subsequent posts you've made after the one which you reference. They tell a completely different story and illustrate your disdain rather clearly.

Keep on keeping on with that schuck and jive, man. Don't ever change.

In all honesty, I couldn't really care any less. Believe what you wish and feel however you wish. But it's rather disingenuous to pass yourself off as some kind of basketball authority when you're no better than any of the rest of us. Fallacies aren't a good trend to follow. Just saying.

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[TheBobster]

Honestly, as a lont-time Suns fan (since 1975-76) whose seen him play here since his rookie year, I'd have to agreee that he is overrated.

I don't consider 4 A-Star Games in 10 years as elite (with two of them being as the replacement for injured players), and neither is selection to 1 1st Team All-NBA and 1 3rd Team All- NBA in 10 years.

Granted, he's a prolific scorer, but he's not particularly efficient. He's a good, but not great passer. He's more of a scorer than a shooter, he's more of a streaky shooter than a pure shooter. He's not a real leader, his historey in elimination games is not good, and his defense is pretty bad.

He'll score you 25 points a night, but he will revert to "heroball" far too often. Borderline All-Star, yes. Cornerstone for your franchise, not if you have championship aspirations.

[Rainwater]

Booker is a perennial All Star talent and top 15 player in the league, imo. No, he can't lead your team to a championship because he isn't an on-the-ball player. He's the ideal off-ball scorer who would play next to a dynamic on-ball wing or forward. Put him next to a Jokic or Giannis or Lebron and he can help you win a championship.

He can’t lead the Suns to a championship? He did help lead the Suns to a Finals where they lost a tough fought series with the Bucks………… like, Mitchell and Edwards who are being compared to him in this thread to him have never lead their team to a Finals, so you can’t really say they’re clearly a franchise cornerstone and Booker isn’t, can you?

Like, clearly a what have you done for me type league lately…….

Chris Paul led that team, Booker was second Banana

[FarBeyondDriven]

when you're a franchise that's never drafted, developed and kept a star for their whole career, the thought of finally getting one is likely very enticing.

[BCbudraptorfan]

Booker is trash
Mitchell is the best sg

[WiggOuts]

Hasn't he been a postseason riser? He did lead the franchise to one of two Finals trips and is probably on pace to be one of the three of four best players in franchise history.

I find statements like this to be disingenuous. On the surface it might seem that way, he led them in scoring, he might have been the best player...but he didn't "lead" them there. Chris Paul led those teams. Being the best player does not mean you're the leader of the team, those 2 things are not the same

[shi-woo]

Thi wouldnt even be a topic if the Suns didn't blow their team up after their finals run...

The dude proved he an be a #1 scorer on a team that makes the finals, and you never have to worry about him not bringing the fight.

I think Mitchell is the more dynamic player, better shooter with more ball skills, so I would put Book slightly under him.

I don't know if i'm bias, but watching what Brown does in the PO, as well as matching his numbers in the RS while being the surprisingly better shooter for his career, I would also say he's slightly behind brown too.

But these 3 dudes are all interchangible imo, and there is a clear cutoff between them and the elites, and them and the really good players.

I think he's clearly better than other wings like Lavine, Ingram, Laurie, so he would be in the Trae, KAT, and Harden level of players for me. Guys who are offensive engines, but not the all around guys ahead of them. Solid dudes that can make All-NBA 3rd teams every once in a while and are consistent AS's

I feel bad for these type of dudes, because they clearly have the talent to carry teams, but if they don't get the team around them, people tend to talk smack. All these dudes have made it to the Final 4, and have shown out at various points in the postseason. If you can do that, and any competent team with you on it is a solid 2nd round team, then all you need is a better team to help push you over the top.

Book at 24, averaged 27/6/5 during that finals run, and 34/6/7 a few years later in 11 games in the postseason. Suns have every right to view him as a cornerstone player, because when the circumstances are there, he has been one.

Gutting that team simply because CP3 was getting old was a complete joke, and I feel back for Booker. Himself, Cam, and Bridges should have been playing together in their primes, and trading Ayton/Paul for better pieces should have been the goal. Such a waste of a superstars prime

[tsherkin]

I think Mitchell is the more dynamic player, better shooter with more ball skills, so I would put Book slightly under him.

Maybe? Not a better playmaker than Book, definitely not as good a mid-range shooter. Not as good at the line. DM is a 36, 37% 3pt shooter. They've both had two seasons of 38%+ from 3.

Don't know that this is a good way to make a compelling argument for Mitchell about shooting. They're similar on long twos. Book is better from 10-16 feet and notably better with the short game.

[Chuck Everett]

Paying him $75 million a year (in an extension) just seems on the surface like even he understands that we're not winning ish, so I might as well get as much bread as I can, while I play for a city I like living in. I think he's really good individual player, but... missing the play-in, in your prime like this is a bad look. The Ishbia factor probably can't be overcome.

[Infinite Llamas]

Booker/Mitchell/Edwards are all on the same tier for me. All ideally #2 options on a contender.

[Bucks4005]

Booker is a perennial All Star talent and top 15 player in the league, imo. No, he can't lead your team to a championship because he isn't an on-the-ball player. He's the ideal off-ball scorer who would play next to a dynamic on-ball wing or forward. Put him next to a Jokic or Giannis or Lebron and he can help you win a championship.

He can’t lead the Suns to a championship? He did help lead the Suns to a Finals where they lost a tough fought series with the Bucks………… like, Mitchell and Edwards who are being compared to him in this thread to him have never lead their team to a Finals, so you can’t really say they’re clearly a franchise cornerstone and Booker isn’t, can you?

Like, clearly a what have you done for me type league lately…….

Chris Paul led that team, Booker was second Banana

……….. I mean, he lead the team in MPG, PPG, FG attempts, by a pretty large margin in the regular season and postseason that year, indicating he was their clear leading scorer on a good team and go to player to get a bucket. I get you can argue sure, he might not have been as impactful as the other career HOF on that team, but just declaring he’s second banana doesn’t actually mitigate the impact he had on the team that season, does it?

[enigmatics]

Yes.

Absolutely deluded. Dude's a nice guy but it's an insult to call him a franchise player and pay him super max money.

But that's why my Suns don't win championships.