12 years ago today Ray Allen hit one of the biggest shots in NBA history

[The4thHorseman]

Translation: In the >8,500 posts you made as a leBron stan, you cant quote a single one giving Bosh, Wade, and the elite role players LBJ had - like Ray Allen - their flowers. Thanks for proving my point.

Show me my posts where I said Miami was a **** team except for LeBron and no other player deserves credit? You know, like you claimed above that ALL James fans do.

Come on. These posts are all over the place. Its part of the "LBJ is the GOAT" narrative to talk the contributions of all of his team mates down. Be it Wade, Bosh, Ray, Miller, Chalmers, especially Love, Kyrie, AD and so on. Noone who helped him win ever got respected as being on the same level of contribution as him. Narrative is always he carried the team.

You yourself posted several times and frequently stated Bosh was never a superstar and Wade didnt play well. Evryone can go through your posts its easy to find. Here is one recent posts from you:

In a combined 16 seasons Love, Irving and Bosh played 11 postseason games and won 3 of them in those 2 appearances. Yeah, they were established alright.

If that's the criteria, then what team(s) are considered superteams? Can't say the 2011 Heat cause Chris Bosh was never considered a superstar and definitely didn't put up stats/play like one while with Miami. Wade didn't play like one in 2013 or 2014

Stating facts is considered **** on them

What lie did I post? How about posting the quotes I was answering.

You're better off sticking to crying about how the refs rigged the series against your hero Jokic and the Nuggets.

[bledredwine]

The funny thing is, if the LeBron haters in this thread actually turned their brains on and made an attempt at an objective post, they would have a point.

Ray Allen didn't "save" LeBron's legacy. LeBron's legacy wasn't dead set on this series being won. He did save Miami's season. He did hit one of the all time greatest shots in finals history, arguably the greatest. But the problem is this is treated as proof that LeBron wasn't capable of stepping up in the big moment, even though there's already mountains worth of evidence that he could. Hell, Miami was down double digits going into this quarter. LeBron brought them back into the game with Wade sitting on the bench. This continues to be ignored however because LeBron made some costly turnovers and missed a couple shots down the stretch.

We can make statements without having to resort to bull ****. LeBron got Miami back into this game and Ray Allen tied the game and saved their season. Both things are true. You know what else is true? LeBron made some mistakes down the stretch and was clearly Miami's best player in this game.

See that? An objective post that was made using critical thinking and unbiased observation. Take notes LeBron deranged syndrome victims.

EXACTLY!!! This is what I'm constantly trying to get through, it always he's to be some hyperbole or exaggerated stuff (this goes both ways to all the super fans), and then it just makes it become stupid conversation.

I don't even know who the vast amount of people giving Lebron 100% of the credit are (definitely not me lol), because honestly every time we talk about this series, some of the first things mentioned are Bosh's rebound and Allen's three.

Lebron actually was relatively poor in games 1-3, they went 1-2, then he was far better in games 4-7. This is similar to Jordan vs Seattle but the other way around, but winning is winning.

The Bulls went up 3-0, then Jordan relatively struggled in games 4-6, which contributed to it going to 6 games, and in game 6, the Bulls of course were "saved" by the overall team defense, but offensive rebounding was a HUGE part. They committed 19 turnovers, Jordan 5, but they forced 20. They won game 6 offensively on offensive rebounds (+12 OReb) and FT's (+10 FTA) but that's why teams win. If you want to do this useless nitpicking stuff, Jordan was 10-16 from the FT line in game 2, Seattle was +7 in the 4th, and then we can start saying hypothetical stuff like, they "almost" lost, and if, if, if this or that happened, they could have lost the game and the series

Bulls went up 2-0, then went 1-3 vs Indiana to go to game 7. In game 7, offensive rebounds were huge again, 22-5, Jordan had 5 (he was part of it), Pippen had 6. This was a 5 point win, Jordan went 2/7 in the 4th, but he got to the line, and you win with total team contribution, yes. They held Reggie to 1 FGA in the 4th.

Are there not also people who give Jordan "100%" of the credit for his teams wins? It is the same kind of stuff irrespective of the player.

I was such a Lebron hater at the time, and loved those Spurs. Manu and Duncan felt like family by that point, Kawhi was my favorite young player, and Diaw was one of my favorite players ever. I remember DROOLING at the narrative implications of Lebron losing that series, and before Ray's shot everyone thought it was about to happen. Lebron had already won a title, but there was something that felt damning about him losing to the old guys every time (the Spurs beat baby Lebron back in 2007, and then of course there was Dallas in 2011). Beating a younger Thunder felt like not enough to prove Lebron's greatness. I remember this game so vividly. I was drunk at a sports bar, already basically celebrating Lebron's downfall.

This is all just narrative though, and even on the narrative level... it didn't come to pass. The years went by and Lebron consistently piled up monstrous playoff performances. There was never any real case about Lebron's basketball impact, so us haters needed narrative. When Lebron put away a historic Warriors team, there was no longer any compelling narrative of Lebron's failure. This guy was very simply one of the greatest players any of us had ever seen.

It's crazy to me, as someone who used to root for this narrative, that there are still haters clinging to this idea. Lebron is my chosen villain, but the villain won, and the victors write history. My fellow haters still clinging to an alternative reality is something I consistently find embarrassing.

He underperformed up to that point in the series and put his team in a position to lose, and would have if not for being saved.

That’s not an alternate reality. That’s exactly what happened.

[Iwasawitness]

Actually it was.

No, it wasn't.

Through the first five games, his only strong performance was in Game 4. Through the first three games, he had fewer points than Danny Green. Even in the first three quarters of Game 6, he was pretty lousy. Basically, the majority of the series he played only slightly better than he played in 2011.

It's always very easy to tell who actually watched back then and who is just looking at box scores blindly and not even making an attempt to make any research on the matter. But with you, that shouldn't surprise me.

Offensively, yes, LeBron wasn't very good in the first three games. The key difference between 2011 and 2013 is that LeBron was significantly more affective as a defender, compared to against Dallas where he got lit up by Jason Terry (something 70% of the people who rag on LeBron probably don't even know about because they more than likely didn't watch back then). LeBron was the primary defender on Tony Parker and the results speak for themselves. Apart from game 5 where Parker got the majority of his baskets when LeBron didn't guard him, Parker was severely limited by LeBron's defense. It was a key reason as to why Miami won the series.

So on that aspect alone, LeBron was significantly better than he was in 2011 and by all accounts was having a good series. And this isn't even factoring the last two games of the series where he brought Miami back in the game and had an all time performance in game 7. which turned it into a really great one.

So yes, that Ray Allen shot saved his legacy. Because otherwise we're talking about him being 1-3 in the Finals with a superteam, getting clamped by Boris Diaw, and having a repeat of the 2011 choke job.

No we're not. We're talking about him being 1-2 at that point. Where is this 1-3 nonsense coming from. Oh oh, you're assuming he loses in 2014 as well right? And you know this how? Oh, you don't? Okay, then this is just you being factually wrong once again per usual.

Clamped by Boris Diaw? I mean, sure, if you're doing basic google searches and didn't, you know, watch the games. Boris did defend LeBron well, it wasn't a clamp job. A clamp job implies that a player is able to one on one someone no matter what the situation at hand is and regardless of who is on the floor. See, Pop purposely did this when Miami's spacing was at its worst (usually when Wade was out there). This allowed Diaw to just give LeBron space and dare him to shoot, or try to overcome Diaw's larger frame to get inside, where guys like Duncan were waiting. It was all matchup based. Once Wade was off the floor and Miami had shooters surrounding LeBron, he quickly took advantage of it and Pop realized the Diaw defensive matchup wasn't going to work for much longer.

Oh and btw, you mention the "LeBrOn HaD a SuPeRtEaM" nonsense, but funny enough, if Wade actually was healthy and at his best (he wasn't), that series probably doesn't even go seven games to begin with.

He underperformed up to that point in the series and put his team in a position to lose, and would have if not for being saved.

That’s not an alternate reality. That’s exactly what happened.

And you wonder why no one on this site takes you seriously.

[MrPainfulTruth]

EXACTLY!!! This is what I'm constantly trying to get through, it always he's to be some hyperbole or exaggerated stuff (this goes both ways to all the super fans), and then it just makes it become stupid conversation.

I don't even know who the vast amount of people giving Lebron 100% of the credit are (definitely not me lol), because honestly every time we talk about this series, some of the first things mentioned are Bosh's rebound and Allen's three.

Lebron actually was relatively poor in games 1-3, they went 1-2, then he was far better in games 4-7. This is similar to Jordan vs Seattle but the other way around, but winning is winning.

The Bulls went up 3-0, then Jordan relatively struggled in games 4-6, which contributed to it going to 6 games, and in game 6, the Bulls of course were "saved" by the overall team defense, but offensive rebounding was a HUGE part. They committed 19 turnovers, Jordan 5, but they forced 20. They won game 6 offensively on offensive rebounds (+12 OReb) and FT's (+10 FTA) but that's why teams win. If you want to do this useless nitpicking stuff, Jordan was 10-16 from the FT line in game 2, Seattle was +7 in the 4th, and then we can start saying hypothetical stuff like, they "almost" lost, and if, if, if this or that happened, they could have lost the game and the series

Bulls went up 2-0, then went 1-3 vs Indiana to go to game 7. In game 7, offensive rebounds were huge again, 22-5, Jordan had 5 (he was part of it), Pippen had 6. This was a 5 point win, Jordan went 2/7 in the 4th, but he got to the line, and you win with total team contribution, yes. They held Reggie to 1 FGA in the 4th.

Are there not also people who give Jordan "100%" of the credit for his teams wins? It is the same kind of stuff irrespective of the player.

I was such a Lebron hater at the time, and loved those Spurs. Manu and Duncan felt like family by that point, Kawhi was my favorite young player, and Diaw was one of my favorite players ever. I remember DROOLING at the narrative implications of Lebron losing that series, and before Ray's shot everyone thought it was about to happen. Lebron had already won a title, but there was something that felt damning about him losing to the old guys every time (the Spurs beat baby Lebron back in 2007, and then of course there was Dallas in 2011). Beating a younger Thunder felt like not enough to prove Lebron's greatness. I remember this game so vividly. I was drunk at a sports bar, already basically celebrating Lebron's downfall.

This is all just narrative though, and even on the narrative level... it didn't come to pass. The years went by and Lebron consistently piled up monstrous playoff performances. There was never any real case about Lebron's basketball impact, so us haters needed narrative. When Lebron put away a historic Warriors team, there was no longer any compelling narrative of Lebron's failure. This guy was very simply one of the greatest players any of us had ever seen.

It's crazy to me, as someone who used to root for this narrative, that there are still haters clinging to this idea. Lebron is my chosen villain, but the villain won, and the victors write history. My fellow haters still clinging to an alternative reality is something I consistently find embarrassing.

He underperformed up to that point in the series and put his team in a position to lose, and would have if not for being saved.

That’s not an alternate reality. That’s exactly what happened.

True. That is what happened, and guys seem to think enough time has passed now to revise history and make up "alternative truths".

Thank you for being a beacon of truth. Keep telling the story, many younglings havent been here to see what actually happened. Important to not let the liars spin and twist the history.

[MrPainfulTruth]

Show me my posts where I said Miami was a **** team except for LeBron and no other player deserves credit? You know, like you claimed above that ALL James fans do.

Come on. These posts are all over the place. Its part of the "LBJ is the GOAT" narrative to talk the contributions of all of his team mates down. Be it Wade, Bosh, Ray, Miller, Chalmers, especially Love, Kyrie, AD and so on. Noone who helped him win ever got respected as being on the same level of contribution as him. Narrative is always he carried the team.

You yourself posted several times and frequently stated Bosh was never a superstar and Wade didnt play well. Evryone can go through your posts its easy to find. Here is one recent posts from you:

In a combined 16 seasons Love, Irving and Bosh played 11 postseason games and won 3 of them in those 2 appearances. Yeah, they were established alright.

If that's the criteria, then what team(s) are considered superteams? Can't say the 2011 Heat cause Chris Bosh was never considered a superstar and definitely didn't put up stats/play like one while with Miami. Wade didn't play like one in 2013 or 2014

Stating facts is considered **** on them

What lie did I post? How about posting the quotes I was answering.

You're better off sticking to crying about how the refs rigged the series against your hero Jokic and the Nuggets.

Wow. You really seem defensive here now that i nailed you to your own words. You'd better stop entirely and just admit you were wrong.

[Cool_Dude]

People forget the Spurs still had a chance to win in regulation. Refs stopped the clock with like 5 seconds left to check and see if Ray's foot was on the line. That led to the Spurs getting a free timeout to set up a play on the inbound pass. Parker took it the length and got a decent baseline look from 12ft as time expired.

Then of course the blown layup and put back by Timmy which had the Charles Smith-esque look in OT. Totally gut wrenching for the fans.

That wasn’t in OT of Game 6, it was in the final minute of Game 7.

[The4thHorseman]

People forget the Spurs still had a chance to win in regulation. Refs stopped the clock with like 5 seconds left to check and see if Ray's foot was on the line. That led to the Spurs getting a free timeout to set up a play on the inbound pass. Parker took it the length and got a decent baseline look from 12ft as time expired.

Then of course the blown layup and put back by Timmy which had the Charles Smith-esque look in OT. Totally gut wrenching for the fans.

That wasn’t in OT of Game 6, it was in the final minute of Game 7.

Thanks for the correction.

[Iwasawitness]

I was such a Lebron hater at the time, and loved those Spurs. Manu and Duncan felt like family by that point, Kawhi was my favorite young player, and Diaw was one of my favorite players ever. I remember DROOLING at the narrative implications of Lebron losing that series, and before Ray's shot everyone thought it was about to happen. Lebron had already won a title, but there was something that felt damning about him losing to the old guys every time (the Spurs beat baby Lebron back in 2007, and then of course there was Dallas in 2011). Beating a younger Thunder felt like not enough to prove Lebron's greatness. I remember this game so vividly. I was drunk at a sports bar, already basically celebrating Lebron's downfall.

This is all just narrative though, and even on the narrative level... it didn't come to pass. The years went by and Lebron consistently piled up monstrous playoff performances. There was never any real case about Lebron's basketball impact, so us haters needed narrative. When Lebron put away a historic Warriors team, there was no longer any compelling narrative of Lebron's failure. This guy was very simply one of the greatest players any of us had ever seen.

It's crazy to me, as someone who used to root for this narrative, that there are still haters clinging to this idea. Lebron is my chosen villain, but the villain won, and the victors write history. My fellow haters still clinging to an alternative reality is something I consistently find embarrassing.

He underperformed up to that point in the series and put his team in a position to lose, and would have if not for being saved.

That’s not an alternate reality. That’s exactly what happened.

True. That is what happened, and guys seem to think enough time has passed now to revise history and make up "alternative truths".

Thank you for being a beacon of truth. Keep telling the story, many younglings havent been here to see what actually happened. Important to not let the liars spin and twist the history.

And this right here is why cup is embarrassed of you guys.

[SportsGuru08]

Actually it was.

No, it wasn't.

Through the first five games, his only strong performance was in Game 4. Through the first three games, he had fewer points than Danny Green. Even in the first three quarters of Game 6, he was pretty lousy. Basically, the majority of the series he played only slightly better than he played in 2011.

It's always very easy to tell who actually watched back then and who is just looking at box scores blindly and not even making an attempt to make any research on the matter. But with you, that shouldn't surprise me.

Offensively, yes, LeBron wasn't very good in the first three games. The key difference between 2011 and 2013 is that LeBron was significantly more affective as a defender, compared to against Dallas where he got lit up by Jason Terry (something 70% of the people who rag on LeBron probably don't even know about because they more than likely didn't watch back then). LeBron was the primary defender on Tony Parker and the results speak for themselves. Apart from game 5 where Parker got the majority of his baskets when LeBron didn't guard him, Parker was severely limited by LeBron's defense. It was a key reason as to why Miami won the series.

So on that aspect alone, LeBron was significantly better than he was in 2011 and by all accounts was having a good series. And this isn't even factoring the last two games of the series where he brought Miami back in the game and had an all time performance in game 7. which turned it into a really great one.

So yes, that Ray Allen shot saved his legacy. Because otherwise we're talking about him being 1-3 in the Finals with a superteam, getting clamped by Boris Diaw, and having a repeat of the 2011 choke job.

No we're not. We're talking about him being 1-2 at that point. Where is this 1-3 nonsense coming from. Oh oh, you're assuming he loses in 2014 as well right? And you know this how? Oh, you don't? Okay, then this is just you being factually wrong once again per usual.

Clamped by Boris Diaw? I mean, sure, if you're doing basic google searches and didn't, you know, watch the games. Boris did defend LeBron well, it wasn't a clamp job. A clamp job implies that a player is able to one on one someone no matter what the situation at hand is and regardless of who is on the floor. See, Pop purposely did this when Miami's spacing was at its worst (usually when Wade was out there). This allowed Diaw to just give LeBron space and dare him to shoot, or try to overcome Diaw's larger frame to get inside, where guys like Duncan were waiting. It was all matchup based. Once Wade was off the floor and Miami had shooters surrounding LeBron, he quickly took advantage of it and Pop realized the Diaw defensive matchup wasn't going to work for much longer.

Oh and btw, you mention the "LeBrOn HaD a SuPeRtEaM" nonsense, but funny enough, if Wade actually was healthy and at his best (he wasn't), that series probably doesn't even go seven games to begin with.

He underperformed up to that point in the series and put his team in a position to lose, and would have if not for being saved.

That’s not an alternate reality. That’s exactly what happened.

And you wonder why no one on this site takes you seriously.

Spare me this talk about his defense. LeBron being trash on offense is the biggest reason they were in a 3-2 hole to begin with. And why they were in a position of needing Ray Allen to make that shot.

This supposedly "washed up" Wade outscored every Spur in that series. He played better in the '13 Finals than Pippen played in his last three. Besides, Wade averaged 26 against Dallas two years prior and Bron still found a way to lose that series. Not hearing this excuse.

Y'all claim Wade was completely washed in 2014. Do you think he'd have been any less "washed" if Miami hadn't won the year before? Time doesn't slow down whether you win or lose. That's why I can confidently say they still lose in 2014 regardless. LeBron's lousy defense was at least as much to blame for them losing so convincingly. He allowed Kawhi to average 24 on near 70% shooting over the last three games. And keep on mind, this is baby Kawhi, not the established star who put the Raptors on his back.

For the record, an even older Wade averaged 22 in the '16 playoffs two years after LeBron left. So his bad showing in the 2014 Finals had less to do with him being "washed" and more to him becoming a victim of the LeBron system, much like Chris Bosh.

Your idea of a superteam is A). A 35-37 year old rebounding specialist who can't score ten points in an empty gym B). One-dimensional spot up shooters who leak like a busted pipe on defense and C). A washed up former poor-man's Jordan with knee problems.

If that fits a criteria of a superteam, then so do the Miami Heat of that era. Now watch as you disingenuously move the goalposts and shift your criteria solely for your guy because Bron Stans are so disingenuous.

[Iwasawitness]

Spare me this talk about his defense. LeBron being trash on offense is the biggest reason they were in a 3-2 hole to begin with. And why they were in a position of needing Ray Allen to make that shot.

No it's not. Miami being unable to contain the Spurs offense as a whole was the biggest reason they were down 3-2. Now I know for a fact you didn't watch at the time. Thanks for confirming it. And btw, LeBron's defense throughout the series is one of the reasons they were still in it.

This supposedly "washed up" Wade outscored every Spur in that series. He played better in the '13 Finals than Pippen played in his last three. Besides, Wade averaged 26 against Dallas two years prior and Bron still found a way to lose that series. Not hearing this excuse.

Wade wasn't washed, he was dealing with a knee injury, which severely impacted his playing ability (he had the same issue in 2014). Better than the last three series Pippin played in? In what regard? Scoring? I guess. But defensively, Wade was a disaster. Him not being able to keep up with Danny Green is one of the reasons why he lit them up in the first five games of that series. Miami was better on the floor throughout the series when Wade wasn't playing, and there's a reason for that.

Y'all claim Wade was completely washed in 2014. Do you think he'd have been any less "washed" if Miami hadn't won the year before? Time doesn't slow down whether you win or lose. That's why I can confidently say they still lose in 2014 regardless. LeBron's lousy defense was at least as much to blame for them losing so convincingly. He allowed Kawhi to average 24 on near 70% shooting over the last three games. And keep on mind, this is baby Kawhi, not the established star who put the Raptors on his back.

He "allowed" Kawhi to average 24 PPG? You mean the guy he didn't guard for most of those games? But you are right about one thing... they do lose in 2014 regardless of whether or not Wade plays well. That's what happens when you go up against one of the greatest teams of all time.

For the record, an even older Wade averaged 22 in the '16 playoffs two years after LeBron left. So his bad showing in the 2014 Finals had less to do with him being "washed" and more to him becoming a victim of the LeBron system, much like Chris Bosh.

At this point you're getting desperate.

Again, as mentioned before, Wade was dealing with injury. Wade averaged 22 PPG in the 2012 while playing with LeBron. He averaged more than that in 2011. Where was the LeBron issue there?

Your idea of a superteam is A). A 35-37 year old rebounding specialist who can't score ten points in an empty gym B). One-dimensional spot up shooters who leak like a busted pipe on defense and C). A washed up former poor-man's Jordan with knee problems.

The **** are you even talking about? What is this referring to? Is saying stupid **** just something you're doing to try to throw me off? Because I'll be honest, it's working.

If that fits a criteria of a superteam, then so do the Miami Heat of that era. Now watch as you disingenuously move the goalposts and shift your criteria solely for your guy because Bron Stans are so disingenuous.

I have no idea what you are talking about. This is setting the standard for how not to end what is already an idiotic post from you. I feel like I'm talking to a dementia riddled patient right now. Please, for the sake of what brain cells I have left after reading this, please clarify what it is you are talking about.

[SportsGuru08]

Spare me this talk about his defense. LeBron being trash on offense is the biggest reason they were in a 3-2 hole to begin with. And why they were in a position of needing Ray Allen to make that shot.

No it's not. Miami being unable to contain the Spurs offense as a whole was the biggest reason they were down 3-2. Now I know for a fact you didn't watch at the time. Thanks for confirming it. And btw, LeBron's defense throughout the series is one of the reasons they were still in it.

This supposedly "washed up" Wade outscored every Spur in that series. He played better in the '13 Finals than Pippen played in his last three. Besides, Wade averaged 26 against Dallas two years prior and Bron still found a way to lose that series. Not hearing this excuse.

Wade wasn't washed, he was dealing with a knee injury, which severely impacted his playing ability (he had the same issue in 2014). Better than the last three series Pippin played in? In what regard? Scoring? I guess. But defensively, Wade was a disaster. Him not being able to keep up with Danny Green is one of the reasons why he lit them up in the first five games of that series. Miami was better on the floor throughout the series when Wade wasn't playing, and there's a reason for that.

Y'all claim Wade was completely washed in 2014. Do you think he'd have been any less "washed" if Miami hadn't won the year before? Time doesn't slow down whether you win or lose. That's why I can confidently say they still lose in 2014 regardless. LeBron's lousy defense was at least as much to blame for them losing so convincingly. He allowed Kawhi to average 24 on near 70% shooting over the last three games. And keep on mind, this is baby Kawhi, not the established star who put the Raptors on his back.

He "allowed" Kawhi to average 24 PPG? You mean the guy he didn't guard for most of those games? But you are right about one thing... they do lose in 2014 regardless of whether or not Wade plays well. That's what happens when you go up against one of the greatest teams of all time.

For the record, an even older Wade averaged 22 in the '16 playoffs two years after LeBron left. So his bad showing in the 2014 Finals had less to do with him being "washed" and more to him becoming a victim of the LeBron system, much like Chris Bosh.

At this point you're getting desperate.

Again, as mentioned before, Wade was dealing with injury. Wade averaged 22 PPG in the 2012 while playing with LeBron. He averaged more than that in 2011. Where was the LeBron issue there?

Your idea of a superteam is A). A 35-37 year old rebounding specialist who can't score ten points in an empty gym B). One-dimensional spot up shooters who leak like a busted pipe on defense and C). A washed up former poor-man's Jordan with knee problems.

The **** are you even talking about? What is this referring to? Is saying stupid **** just something you're doing to try to throw me off? Because I'll be honest, it's working.

If that fits a criteria of a superteam, then so do the Miami Heat of that era. Now watch as you disingenuously move the goalposts and shift your criteria solely for your guy because Bron Stans are so disingenuous.

I have no idea what you are talking about. This is setting the standard for how not to end what is already an idiotic post from you. I feel like I'm talking to a dementia riddled patient right now. Please, for the sake of what brain cells I have left after reading this, please clarify what it is you are talking about.

LeBron's defense was atrocious in the 2014 Finals. And his atrocious offense for most of 2013 if why they were in a 3-2 hole. No matter how you try to slice it, Ray Allen saved his legacy. Saved him from having a repeat of 2011 and a 1-3 Finals record with his superteam.

The point about Wade was to address your excuse on how Bron didn't have him "at his best", namely that it's just a lame excuse. Again, he had Wade average 26 against a team of geriatric jump shooters and still found a way to lose. And even at "not his best" he was still better offensively better than Scottie was his last three Finals. And even if Wade wasn't his absolute best on defense, Miami still played good team defense and Bron is supposed to be this magical defender who can guard 1-5 and shut them all down. So where was that in the 2014 Finals?

That Spurs team had zero players average 17 PPG. Zero. Each of their big three was a dinosaur and the Finals MVP was a baby. And they lost by record margins. With literally any other player, this is a legacy killer. But LeBron gets a pass. He always does.

You were complaining on how I called Miami a superteam. I then correctly pointed out how you and your ilk have such a low criteria for what qualifies as a superteam and how Bron's Miami teams were superteams by your criteria. Don't be obtuse.

I did watch those games in 2014; Kawhi torched LeBron. Just like Jason Terry did. And yes, Boris Diaw did clamp him whenever he guarded him in the '13 Finals, another reason why Allen's three was a legacy saver.

Well I've wasted enough brain cells talking to you.

[Iwasawitness]

LeBron's defense was atrocious in the 2014 Finals. And his atrocious offense for most of 2013 if why they were in a 3-2 hole. No matter how you try to slice it, Ray Allen saved his legacy. Saved him from having a repeat of 2011 and a 1-3 Finals record with his superteam.

What are you basing this off of? I know you didn't watch the series so I'm very curious as to why you're so confident in that statement about a series you clearly didn't watch a single minute of.

The point about Wade was to address your excuse on how Bron didn't have him "at his best", namely that it's just a lame excuse. Again, he had Wade average 26 against a team of geriatric jump shooters and still found a way to lose. And even at "not his best" he was still better offensively better than Scottie was his last three Finals. And even if Wade wasn't his absolute best on defense, Miami still played good team defense and Bron is supposed to be this magical defender who can guard 1-5 and shut them all down. So where was that in the 2014 Finals?

It WAS there in the 2014 Finals. Not at that level, no. But he wasn't a horrible defender in the 2014 Finals by any means. I suggest you actually watch the games instead of going off opposing teams box scores and just automatically assuming "well, LeBron must have been awful on defense in that series". He wasn't.

Your point about Wade doesn't make any sense. First off, he wasn't better offensively than Scottie. Scottie didn't make his team worse offensively when he played on the floor like Wade did. Second, it's funny that you describe Wade as "not being at his best defensively" like you're trying to give him a subtle pass, but then claim LeBron was awful defensively in 2014. LeBron was significantly better on defense in the 2014 Finals than Wade was at that end in 2013, and 2014 for that matter. You not only aren't being consistent, you're showing clear bias and it's hurting what's already a very bad faith argument on your part.

That Spurs team had zero players average 17 PPG. Zero. Each of their big three was a dinosaur and the Finals MVP was a baby. And they lost by record margins. With literally any other player, this is a legacy killer. But LeBron gets a pass. He always does.

And yet they're one of the greatest teams of all time. So what is the point of mentioning that their big three were dinosaurs and that the Finals MVP was young? Clearly, none of that mattered because they still had a 8+ SRS, 62 wins and a 8+ net rating. Oh and btw, no one on the team averaged more than 30 MPG. That's a dominant team.

You're trying your best to downplay how great they were and it's showing why you can't be taken seriously. You can't ignore all other aspects of the game with "errr but they were old". They were an incredibly deep and stacked squad. Losing to an all time team isn't a legacy killer, it's idiotic to claim otherwise.

You were complaining on how I called Miami a superteam. I then correctly pointed out how you and your ilk have such a low criteria for what qualifies as a superteam and how Bron's Miami teams were superteams by your criteria. Don't be obtuse.

Go back and re-read what I said.

I was pointing out how idiotic it was to say that LeBron was playing on a "superteam" in the 2013 Finals, because the second best player on his team was playing hobbled. You're making a generalized statement while purposely ignoring an important fact. Not to mention, super teams are overrated.

I did watch those games in 2014; Kawhi torched LeBron. Just like Jason Terry did. And yes, Boris Diaw did clamp him whenever he guarded him in the '13 Finals, another reason why Allen's three was a legacy saver.

No, you didn't. I suggest you start actually watching these games before talking about them.

Well I've wasted enough brain cells talking to you.

Starting battles that you can't finish yet again. At least this time you didn't get yourself banned over it. You're making progress.

[MrPainfulTruth]

Spare me this talk about his defense. LeBron being trash on offense is the biggest reason they were in a 3-2 hole to begin with. And why they were in a position of needing Ray Allen to make that shot.

No it's not. Miami being unable to contain the Spurs offense as a whole was the biggest reason they were down 3-2. Now I know for a fact you didn't watch at the time. Thanks for confirming it. And btw, LeBron's defense throughout the series is one of the reasons they were still in it.

This supposedly "washed up" Wade outscored every Spur in that series. He played better in the '13 Finals than Pippen played in his last three. Besides, Wade averaged 26 against Dallas two years prior and Bron still found a way to lose that series. Not hearing this excuse.

Wade wasn't washed, he was dealing with a knee injury, which severely impacted his playing ability (he had the same issue in 2014). Better than the last three series Pippin played in? In what regard? Scoring? I guess. But defensively, Wade was a disaster. Him not being able to keep up with Danny Green is one of the reasons why he lit them up in the first five games of that series. Miami was better on the floor throughout the series when Wade wasn't playing, and there's a reason for that.

Y'all claim Wade was completely washed in 2014. Do you think he'd have been any less "washed" if Miami hadn't won the year before? Time doesn't slow down whether you win or lose. That's why I can confidently say they still lose in 2014 regardless. LeBron's lousy defense was at least as much to blame for them losing so convincingly. He allowed Kawhi to average 24 on near 70% shooting over the last three games. And keep on mind, this is baby Kawhi, not the established star who put the Raptors on his back.

He "allowed" Kawhi to average 24 PPG? You mean the guy he didn't guard for most of those games? But you are right about one thing... they do lose in 2014 regardless of whether or not Wade plays well. That's what happens when you go up against one of the greatest teams of all time.

For the record, an even older Wade averaged 22 in the '16 playoffs two years after LeBron left. So his bad showing in the 2014 Finals had less to do with him being "washed" and more to him becoming a victim of the LeBron system, much like Chris Bosh.

At this point you're getting desperate.

Again, as mentioned before, Wade was dealing with injury. Wade averaged 22 PPG in the 2012 while playing with LeBron. He averaged more than that in 2011. Where was the LeBron issue there?

Your idea of a superteam is A). A 35-37 year old rebounding specialist who can't score ten points in an empty gym B). One-dimensional spot up shooters who leak like a busted pipe on defense and C). A washed up former poor-man's Jordan with knee problems.

The **** are you even talking about? What is this referring to? Is saying stupid **** just something you're doing to try to throw me off? Because I'll be honest, it's working.

If that fits a criteria of a superteam, then so do the Miami Heat of that era. Now watch as you disingenuously move the goalposts and shift your criteria solely for your guy because Bron Stans are so disingenuous.

I have no idea what you are talking about. This is setting the standard for how not to end what is already an idiotic post from you. I feel like I'm talking to a dementia riddled patient right now. Please, for the sake of what brain cells I have left after reading this, please clarify what it is you are talking about.

LeBron's defense was atrocious in the 2014 Finals. And his atrocious offense for most of 2013 if why they were in a 3-2 hole. No matter how you try to slice it, Ray Allen saved his legacy. Saved him from having a repeat of 2011 and a 1-3 Finals record with his superteam.

The point about Wade was to address your excuse on how Bron didn't have him "at his best", namely that it's just a lame excuse. Again, he had Wade average 26 against a team of geriatric jump shooters and still found a way to lose. And even at "not his best" he was still better offensively better than Scottie was his last three Finals. And even if Wade wasn't his absolute best on defense, Miami still played good team defense and Bron is supposed to be this magical defender who can guard 1-5 and shut them all down. So where was that in the 2014 Finals?

That Spurs team had zero players average 17 PPG. Zero. Each of their big three was a dinosaur and the Finals MVP was a baby. And they lost by record margins. With literally any other player, this is a legacy killer. But LeBron gets a pass. He always does.

You were complaining on how I called Miami a superteam. I then correctly pointed out how you and your ilk have such a low criteria for what qualifies as a superteam and how Bron's Miami teams were superteams by your criteria. Don't be obtuse.

I did watch those games in 2014; Kawhi torched LeBron. Just like Jason Terry did. And yes, Boris Diaw did clamp him whenever he guarded him in the '13 Finals, another reason why Allen's three was a legacy saver.

Well I've wasted enough brain cells talking to you.

You can safely put that guy on ignore. He's not here to actually discuss things. LeBron worshipper who cant see any fault in lebron over the entire time of his presence. You're wasting your time here. I dont have many guys on ignore but this one is there, and remains there. The endless stream of blather and nonsense is unoriginal, predictable and a waste of time.

[Iwasawitness]

No it's not. Miami being unable to contain the Spurs offense as a whole was the biggest reason they were down 3-2. Now I know for a fact you didn't watch at the time. Thanks for confirming it. And btw, LeBron's defense throughout the series is one of the reasons they were still in it.



Wade wasn't washed, he was dealing with a knee injury, which severely impacted his playing ability (he had the same issue in 2014). Better than the last three series Pippin played in? In what regard? Scoring? I guess. But defensively, Wade was a disaster. Him not being able to keep up with Danny Green is one of the reasons why he lit them up in the first five games of that series. Miami was better on the floor throughout the series when Wade wasn't playing, and there's a reason for that.



He "allowed" Kawhi to average 24 PPG? You mean the guy he didn't guard for most of those games? But you are right about one thing... they do lose in 2014 regardless of whether or not Wade plays well. That's what happens when you go up against one of the greatest teams of all time.



At this point you're getting desperate.

Again, as mentioned before, Wade was dealing with injury. Wade averaged 22 PPG in the 2012 while playing with LeBron. He averaged more than that in 2011. Where was the LeBron issue there?





The **** are you even talking about? What is this referring to? Is saying stupid **** just something you're doing to try to throw me off? Because I'll be honest, it's working.



I have no idea what you are talking about. This is setting the standard for how not to end what is already an idiotic post from you. I feel like I'm talking to a dementia riddled patient right now. Please, for the sake of what brain cells I have left after reading this, please clarify what it is you are talking about.

LeBron's defense was atrocious in the 2014 Finals. And his atrocious offense for most of 2013 if why they were in a 3-2 hole. No matter how you try to slice it, Ray Allen saved his legacy. Saved him from having a repeat of 2011 and a 1-3 Finals record with his superteam.

The point about Wade was to address your excuse on how Bron didn't have him "at his best", namely that it's just a lame excuse. Again, he had Wade average 26 against a team of geriatric jump shooters and still found a way to lose. And even at "not his best" he was still better offensively better than Scottie was his last three Finals. And even if Wade wasn't his absolute best on defense, Miami still played good team defense and Bron is supposed to be this magical defender who can guard 1-5 and shut them all down. So where was that in the 2014 Finals?

That Spurs team had zero players average 17 PPG. Zero. Each of their big three was a dinosaur and the Finals MVP was a baby. And they lost by record margins. With literally any other player, this is a legacy killer. But LeBron gets a pass. He always does.

You were complaining on how I called Miami a superteam. I then correctly pointed out how you and your ilk have such a low criteria for what qualifies as a superteam and how Bron's Miami teams were superteams by your criteria. Don't be obtuse.

I did watch those games in 2014; Kawhi torched LeBron. Just like Jason Terry did. And yes, Boris Diaw did clamp him whenever he guarded him in the '13 Finals, another reason why Allen's three was a legacy saver.

Well I've wasted enough brain cells talking to you.

You can safely put that guy on ignore. He's not here to actually discuss things. LeBron worshipper who cant see any fault in lebron over the entire time of his presence. You're wasting your time here. I dont have many guys on ignore but this one is there, and remains there. The endless stream of blather and nonsense is unoriginal, predictable and a waste of time.

Speaking of people cup is embarrassed by, hi painfultruth. I see you're still hurt over our past encounters too. It's okay, I get it.

[SportsGuru08]

No it's not. Miami being unable to contain the Spurs offense as a whole was the biggest reason they were down 3-2. Now I know for a fact you didn't watch at the time. Thanks for confirming it. And btw, LeBron's defense throughout the series is one of the reasons they were still in it.



Wade wasn't washed, he was dealing with a knee injury, which severely impacted his playing ability (he had the same issue in 2014). Better than the last three series Pippin played in? In what regard? Scoring? I guess. But defensively, Wade was a disaster. Him not being able to keep up with Danny Green is one of the reasons why he lit them up in the first five games of that series. Miami was better on the floor throughout the series when Wade wasn't playing, and there's a reason for that.



He "allowed" Kawhi to average 24 PPG? You mean the guy he didn't guard for most of those games? But you are right about one thing... they do lose in 2014 regardless of whether or not Wade plays well. That's what happens when you go up against one of the greatest teams of all time.



At this point you're getting desperate.

Again, as mentioned before, Wade was dealing with injury. Wade averaged 22 PPG in the 2012 while playing with LeBron. He averaged more than that in 2011. Where was the LeBron issue there?





The **** are you even talking about? What is this referring to? Is saying stupid **** just something you're doing to try to throw me off? Because I'll be honest, it's working.



I have no idea what you are talking about. This is setting the standard for how not to end what is already an idiotic post from you. I feel like I'm talking to a dementia riddled patient right now. Please, for the sake of what brain cells I have left after reading this, please clarify what it is you are talking about.

LeBron's defense was atrocious in the 2014 Finals. And his atrocious offense for most of 2013 if why they were in a 3-2 hole. No matter how you try to slice it, Ray Allen saved his legacy. Saved him from having a repeat of 2011 and a 1-3 Finals record with his superteam.

The point about Wade was to address your excuse on how Bron didn't have him "at his best", namely that it's just a lame excuse. Again, he had Wade average 26 against a team of geriatric jump shooters and still found a way to lose. And even at "not his best" he was still better offensively better than Scottie was his last three Finals. And even if Wade wasn't his absolute best on defense, Miami still played good team defense and Bron is supposed to be this magical defender who can guard 1-5 and shut them all down. So where was that in the 2014 Finals?

That Spurs team had zero players average 17 PPG. Zero. Each of their big three was a dinosaur and the Finals MVP was a baby. And they lost by record margins. With literally any other player, this is a legacy killer. But LeBron gets a pass. He always does.

You were complaining on how I called Miami a superteam. I then correctly pointed out how you and your ilk have such a low criteria for what qualifies as a superteam and how Bron's Miami teams were superteams by your criteria. Don't be obtuse.

I did watch those games in 2014; Kawhi torched LeBron. Just like Jason Terry did. And yes, Boris Diaw did clamp him whenever he guarded him in the '13 Finals, another reason why Allen's three was a legacy saver.

Well I've wasted enough brain cells talking to you.

You can safely put that guy on ignore. He's not here to actually discuss things. LeBron worshipper who cant see any fault in lebron over the entire time of his presence. You're wasting your time here. I dont have many guys on ignore but this one is there, and remains there. The endless stream of blather and nonsense is unoriginal, predictable and a waste of time.

I did that as soon as I made that post.