The challenge of winning without another top 50 all time superstar

[Warspite]

2 pages and no mention of Isiah Thomas.

" I was the only player at the top50 all-time event who had a ring and had no teammates present."

[tsherkin]

2 pages and no mention of Isiah Thomas.

" I was the only player at the top50 all-time event who had a ring and had no teammates present."

Interesting choice. He did have Rodman, who was DPOY and an All-Star in 1990, and was also All-D 1st Team in 1989. And Joe Dumars, who was All-D 1st team in 1989, and would go on to make 6 All-Star teams (including during the 1990 title season). Dumars was also 3rd in the DPOY vote in 1990, and All-NBA 3rd Team, and wasn't meaningfully better in 90 versus 89. And while he was a gargantuan stain of a human being, Laimbeer was a 4-tiome All-Star who was about a 13/10/2 player during the title seasons, with range from a big man (he shot 35.7% on 1.5 3PA/g those years). And his relentlessly-illegal fouling was a big part of Detroit's success.

So I don't think Isiah really counts here. They won as a defensive dynasty that was solid to good on offense, but never dominant. And they had a LOT of good defensive talent.

[cpower]

JDub was probably a top 30 guy last year.

For some reason OP used an all time list for comparison.

Should be using a top 30 of that or previous season or even top 50 players as comparison instead .


Not sure why all time matter when SGA wasn’t playing against Bird , Hakeem , Dirk etc .

my thought process is when you compare career, your 2nd guy probably provides the most lift. And an all time list has less noise and easier to compare eras. Sure using previous season would work too but I would imagine more biases and subjective opinions

[MoneyTalks41890]

JDub was probably a top 30 guy last year.

For some reason OP used an all time list for comparison.

Should be using a top 30 of that or previous season or even top 50 players as comparison instead .


Not sure why all time matter when SGA wasn’t playing against Bird , Hakeem , Dirk etc .

my thought process is when you compare career, your 2nd guy probably provides the most lift. And an all time list has less noise and easier to compare eras. Sure using previous season would work too but I would imagine more biases and subjective opinions

For sure more subjective to do it another way, but I think you could craft something then that gets closer to measuring the level of play of the 2nd fiddle during the playoff season/run. Which to me is more pertinent than all time, which punishes guys who are coming into their peak/prime like Jalen. Also, Shaq wasn’t Shaq when he played with Bron.

[Patches Perry]

It's weird how people gerrymander supporting casts. Maybe your 2nd best player wasn't top 50, but you had 2 top 75 guys? Or maybe 3 top 120 guys. I understand its hard to judge the totality of a team from top to bottom, but thats really the only way to accurately assess supporting cast. Even then, you still need to factor fit, health and age, opponent quality, etc.

[Lockdown504090]

It's weird how people gerrymander supporting casts. Maybe your 2nd best player wasn't top 50, but you had 2 top 75 guys? Or maybe 3 top 120 guys. I understand its hard to judge the totality of a team from top to bottom, but thats really the only way to accurately assess supporting cast. Even then, you still need to factor fit, health and age, opponent quality, etc.

okc a great example of this actually. That defense is going belt buckle to bottom parts defensively on a lot of those guys we think are top 50 teammates to all time greats.

[Warspite]

2 pages and no mention of Isiah Thomas.

" I was the only player at the top50 all-time event who had a ring and had no teammates present."

Interesting choice. He did have Rodman, who was DPOY and an All-Star in 1990, and was also All-D 1st Team in 1989. And Joe Dumars, who was All-D 1st team in 1989, and would go on to make 6 All-Star teams (including during the 1990 title season). Dumars was also 3rd in the DPOY vote in 1990, and All-NBA 3rd Team, and wasn't meaningfully better in 90 versus 89. And while he was a gargantuan stain of a human being, Laimbeer was a 4-tiome All-Star who was about a 13/10/2 player during the title seasons, with range from a big man (he shot 35.7% on 1.5 3PA/g those years). And his relentlessly-illegal fouling was a big part of Detroit's success.

So I don't think Isiah really counts here. They won as a defensive dynasty that was solid to good on offense, but never dominant. And they had a LOT of good defensive talent.

Dumars won his FMVP before he was an all-star. Laimbeer was no longer an all-star after 87. Rodman is a 27mpg back up. Had he not made it to Chicago in 96 he wouldn't be a top 150 player. Dantley never made the all-star team as a Piston.

Isiah Thomas had no teammates in the all-star game in 1989 and the Pistons had the best record in the NBA.

Still Laimbeer and Dumars are not top 50 players of all time and never were. Isiah Thomas is simply the player who accomplished the most with the least help.

[MavsDirk41]

2 pages and no mention of Isiah Thomas.

" I was the only player at the top50 all-time event who had a ring and had no teammates present."

Interesting choice. He did have Rodman, who was DPOY and an All-Star in 1990, and was also All-D 1st Team in 1989. And Joe Dumars, who was All-D 1st team in 1989, and would go on to make 6 All-Star teams (including during the 1990 title season). Dumars was also 3rd in the DPOY vote in 1990, and All-NBA 3rd Team, and wasn't meaningfully better in 90 versus 89. And while he was a gargantuan stain of a human being, Laimbeer was a 4-tiome All-Star who was about a 13/10/2 player during the title seasons, with range from a big man (he shot 35.7% on 1.5 3PA/g those years). And his relentlessly-illegal fouling was a big part of Detroit's success.

So I don't think Isiah really counts here. They won as a defensive dynasty that was solid to good on offense, but never dominant. And they had a LOT of good defensive talent.

Dumars won his FMVP before he was an all-star. Laimbeer was no longer an all-star after 87. Rodman is a 27mpg back up. Had he not made it to Chicago in 96 he wouldn't be a top 150 player. Dantley never made the all-star team as a Piston.

Isiah Thomas had no teammates in the all-star game in 1989 and the Pistons had the best record in the NBA.

Still Laimbeer and Dumars are not top 50 players of all time and never were. Isiah Thomas is simply the player who accomplished the most with the least help.

Compare Thomas’s supporting cast in Detroit with Hakeem’s in 94….Thomas had way more talent on the court with him than Hakeem. Hakeem has the biggest carry job ever.

[Warspite]

Interesting choice. He did have Rodman, who was DPOY and an All-Star in 1990, and was also All-D 1st Team in 1989. And Joe Dumars, who was All-D 1st team in 1989, and would go on to make 6 All-Star teams (including during the 1990 title season). Dumars was also 3rd in the DPOY vote in 1990, and All-NBA 3rd Team, and wasn't meaningfully better in 90 versus 89. And while he was a gargantuan stain of a human being, Laimbeer was a 4-tiome All-Star who was about a 13/10/2 player during the title seasons, with range from a big man (he shot 35.7% on 1.5 3PA/g those years). And his relentlessly-illegal fouling was a big part of Detroit's success.

So I don't think Isiah really counts here. They won as a defensive dynasty that was solid to good on offense, but never dominant. And they had a LOT of good defensive talent.

Dumars won his FMVP before he was an all-star. Laimbeer was no longer an all-star after 87. Rodman is a 27mpg back up. Had he not made it to Chicago in 96 he wouldn't be a top 150 player. Dantley never made the all-star team as a Piston.

Isiah Thomas had no teammates in the all-star game in 1989 and the Pistons had the best record in the NBA.

Still Laimbeer and Dumars are not top 50 players of all time and never were. Isiah Thomas is simply the player who accomplished the most with the least help.

Compare Thomas’s supporting cast in Detroit with Hakeem’s in 94….Thomas had way more talent on the court with him than Hakeem. Hakeem has the biggest carry job ever.

That is true for 94. What Hakeem did was simply the GOAT carry job I have ever seen.

[wegotthabeet]

Interesting premise, but the idea needs to be fleshed out more OP.

[NZB2323]

2 pages and no mention of Isiah Thomas.

" I was the only player at the top50 all-time event who had a ring and had no teammates present."

Interesting choice. He did have Rodman, who was DPOY and an All-Star in 1990, and was also All-D 1st Team in 1989. And Joe Dumars, who was All-D 1st team in 1989, and would go on to make 6 All-Star teams (including during the 1990 title season). Dumars was also 3rd in the DPOY vote in 1990, and All-NBA 3rd Team, and wasn't meaningfully better in 90 versus 89. And while he was a gargantuan stain of a human being, Laimbeer was a 4-tiome All-Star who was about a 13/10/2 player during the title seasons, with range from a big man (he shot 35.7% on 1.5 3PA/g those years). And his relentlessly-illegal fouling was a big part of Detroit's success.

So I don't think Isiah really counts here. They won as a defensive dynasty that was solid to good on offense, but never dominant. And they had a LOT of good defensive talent.

Dumars won his FMVP before he was an all-star. Laimbeer was no longer an all-star after 87. Rodman is a 27mpg back up. Had he not made it to Chicago in 96 he wouldn't be a top 150 player. Dantley never made the all-star team as a Piston.

Isiah Thomas had no teammates in the all-star game in 1989 and the Pistons had the best record in the NBA.

Still Laimbeer and Dumars are not top 50 players of all time and never were. Isiah Thomas is simply the player who accomplished the most with the least help.

In 1989 IT averaged 18, 8, and 4, 48.1 TS%, 18.6 PER and had a teammate win Finals MVP.

Billups also won a championship without another top 50 teammate, but for some reason we don’t have this mythology around Billups, that he beat Lebron, Kobe, Shaq, and Dirk and is simply the player who accomplished the most with the least help like some people have about Isiah Thomas.

[FrodoFraggins]

As has already been covered, the premise is massively flawed. If you want to measure how much help a player got, you compare his teammates with the rest of the league THAT year. A non top 50 player all time may have been top 5 or 10 during that title winning season. Which means they were of great help.

So what I'd suggest is get a ranking of all players each year and find out where the cutoff is for help getting titles to see who really carried the most. But you still need to take injuries into account as well which can complicate things greatly. And what if a player went crazy in the finals relative to the regular season? Did they not help because they weren't ranked high enough during the regular season?