How important was Shaq's mid-post game to his offensive impact?

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How important was Shaq's mid-post game to his offensive impact? 

Post#1 » by FrodoBaggins » Thu Jul 24, 2025 7:32 am

I was going over some old threads when I stumbled across this comment from Ben Taylor/Thinking Basketball/ElGee:

ElGee wrote:I'm not sure what other play in NBA history gives me that combination. There really is no such thing with redundancy with O'Neal, on either end of the court. The secret to his success, IMO, and something Phil Jackson understood, was that he could play the mid-post game. That allowed for proper spacing, but it also took advantage of Shaq's good passing. And since he really was an efficient scoring beast going one-on-one -- how do you like your whole front line being fouled out otherwise you give up like 1.4 to 1.5 ppp against his isolation? -- he dictated to basically ANY defense in the league.


Do you agree with that assessment? The downside of the mid-post is that it's further away from the basket where the higher-percentage shots are and where shooting fouls and and-1s are more frequent. The upside is that it opens up the paint for cutters and is an easier entry pass, resulting in fewer bad pass turnovers. Lower raw TS%/FG%/FTr but offset by lower TOV% and more high-value passing opportunities.

Shaq was a strong passer with quality court vision and had good-but-not-great scoring range, although he could dribble well enough to back down his man defender into the low & deep post. He could make a nice face-up attack now and then off one dribble, but it was not common. I'd like to think O'Neal would utilize his functional handle for more face-up moves out of the mid & high posts and PnR in today's NBA, but that may be wishful thinking.

This comment by Ben Taylor/Thinking Basketball/ElGee surprised me because I have always thought Shaq's off-ball low-post/deep-post game is what made him special. What made him stand out among post-players regarding on-court ORtg and team ORtg in both the regular season and the postseason.

Some definitions if you don't know what the mid-post is & how it differs from the low-post and high-post:


In basketball, the mid-post is the area on the court located between the low post (closer to the basket) and the high post (near the free throw line extended). It's generally considered to be between the block (the area next to the lane, often painted) and the free throw line extended, typically around 10-15 feet from the basket.



Low Post:
This area is directly adjacent to the lane and near the basket, often including the block.

Mid-Post:
This area is further out from the basket than the low post, but not as far as the high post. It's often visualized as the area between the free throw line extended and the block.

High Post:
This area is near the free throw line extended, usually at the elbows of the free throw lane.


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Re: How important was Shaq's mid-post game to his offensive impact? 

Post#2 » by Ruma85 » Thu Jul 24, 2025 12:00 pm

FrodoBaggins wrote:I was going over some old threads when I stumbled across this comment from Ben Taylor/Thinking Basketball/ElGee:

ElGee wrote:I'm not sure what other play in NBA history gives me that combination. There really is no such thing with redundancy with O'Neal, on either end of the court. The secret to his success, IMO, and something Phil Jackson understood, was that he could play the mid-post game. That allowed for proper spacing, but it also took advantage of Shaq's good passing. And since he really was an efficient scoring beast going one-on-one -- how do you like your whole front line being fouled out otherwise you give up like 1.4 to 1.5 ppp against his isolation? -- he dictated to basically ANY defense in the league.


Do you agree with that assessment? The downside of the mid-post is that it's further away from the basket where the higher-percentage shots are and where shooting fouls and and-1s are more frequent. The upside is that it opens up the paint for cutters and is an easier entry pass, resulting in fewer bad pass turnovers. Lower raw TS%/FG%/FTr but offset by lower TOV% and more high-value passing opportunities.

Shaq was a strong passer with quality court vision and had good-but-not-great scoring range, although he could dribble well enough to back down his man defender into the low & deep post. He could make a nice face-up attack now and then off one dribble, but it was not common. I'd like to think O'Neal would utilize his functional handle for more face-up moves out of the mid & high posts and PnR in today's NBA, but that may be wishful thinking.

This comment by Ben Taylor/Thinking Basketball/ElGee surprised me because I have always thought Shaq's off-ball low-post/deep-post game is what made him special. What made him stand out among post-players regarding on-court ORtg and team ORtg in both the regular season and the postseason.

Some definitions if you don't know what the mid-post is & how it differs from the low-post and high-post:


In basketball, the mid-post is the area on the court located between the low post (closer to the basket) and the high post (near the free throw line extended). It's generally considered to be between the block (the area next to the lane, often painted) and the free throw line extended, typically around 10-15 feet from the basket.



Low Post:
This area is directly adjacent to the lane and near the basket, often including the block.

Mid-Post:
This area is further out from the basket than the low post, but not as far as the high post. It's often visualized as the area between the free throw line extended and the block.

High Post:
This area is near the free throw line extended, usually at the elbows of the free throw lane.


Image


If given a chance to initiate for himself and the team using his handle, he would be even more dominate.

he talked about that.
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Re: How important was Shaq's mid-post game to his offensive impact? 

Post#3 » by ropjhk » Thu Jul 24, 2025 1:21 pm

Shaq has talked about how an offense could run through him thanks to his passing. He was great at finding cutters and passing out of double teams.

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Re: How important was Shaq's mid-post game to his offensive impact? 

Post#4 » by bonita_the_frog » Thu Jul 24, 2025 1:35 pm

Penny was a really excellent slasher, so if Shaq played mid-post in Orlando it would give Penny more room :meditate:
Maybe Orlando would have won a championship if Shaq played mid-post more... though they had only a small window because Penny's injuries.
Also, Shaq in mid-post can receive the ball earlier in the shot-clock and gives him more time to find Dennis Scott or Nick Anderson for three-pointers.
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Re: How important was Shaq's mid-post game to his offensive impact? 

Post#5 » by tsherkin » Thu Jul 24, 2025 3:46 pm

bonita_the_frog wrote:Maybe Orlando would have won a championship if Shaq played mid-post more...


Definitely not. In no way did the positions Shaq occupied on the court interrupt their ability to win.

Also, Shaq in mid-post can receive the ball earlier in the shot-clock


That isn't necessarily true either.

and gives him more time to find Dennis Scott or Nick Anderson for three-pointers.


And now we get to the REAL reason they got the crap kicked out of them in 95: those two chokers.
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Re: How important was Shaq's mid-post game to his offensive impact? 

Post#6 » by tsherkin » Thu Jul 24, 2025 3:53 pm

I think Shaq's mid-post game was useful to extending his volume. You can't get a deep seal or a transition bucket or an ORB on every possession. So his ability to operate a little further from the basket, even at lower efficiency, allowed him to float volume. And because he was quite comfortable with post/re-post and hitting cutters and guys in the corners and all that (particularly inside the triangle), it helped enable everyone around him.

His off-ball game was critical, and very much underrated, but his passing is another one that's underrated. Not because he was a playmaker like Jokic, but it was definitely a cut above guys like Ewing and Olajuwon. He had good vision, good willingness to give up the ball and good technical ability to pass. He had good feel for how to weaponize passing to help him get better position, as well.
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Re: How important was Shaq's mid-post game to his offensive impact? 

Post#7 » by bonita_the_frog » Thu Jul 24, 2025 5:08 pm

tsherkin wrote:
bonita_the_frog wrote:Maybe Orlando would have won a championship if Shaq played mid-post more...

Definitely not. In no way did the positions Shaq occupied on the court interrupt their ability to win.
Also, Shaq in mid-post can receive the ball earlier in the shot-clock

That isn't necessarily true either.
and gives him more time to find Dennis Scott or Nick Anderson for three-pointers.

And now we get to the REAL reason they got the crap kicked out of them in 95: those two chokers.

Its a lot harder to feed the low-post than it is to feed the mid-post :nonono: so if Shaq is in the mid-post you can start the offense earlier in the shot-clock :nod:
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Re: How important was Shaq's mid-post game to his offensive impact? 

Post#8 » by tsherkin » Thu Jul 24, 2025 5:10 pm

bonita_the_frog wrote:Its a lot harder to feed the low-post than it is to feed the mid-post :nonono:


No, that's not universally true. It depends on the set and the timing very much. The pass is pretty much the same, the question is about how the guy got there.

so if Shaq is in the mid-post you can start the offense earlier in the shot-clock :nod:


Again, no. That isn't actually true.

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