Why I think the Kobe-Pau Lakers would be just as good today

[165bows]

I mean...I assume you're skipping Nelson because he was hurt in the playoffs. But the team literally had two guys make the allstar team other than Howard that year.

But Rashard Lewis, Turkaglu, JJ Redick, Gortat...all were around after and all had or were pretty good at their best.

Lee played another 11 years.

Alston and Anthony Johnson were the only guys out of the league soon after.

And this was 2 years after the 2007 Cavs made the finals.

Well I did forget about Nelson but it's the same point, he was not at all an all-star caliber player and that he and Lewis pulled AS appearances is exactly what I'm saying, that whole team was carried by Dwight, and Van Gundy being ahead of his time.

But that's not really true about the rest of the team, Lee was salary dumped off his next deal (4th in total minutes) and Pietrus flamed out the next year as well (6th in total minutes).

The point is Dwight carried a crap ton of mediocre guys that year to the finals and the best years of their careers, that Lakers team put up a 105 in the finals the next year which is a recipe these days to get run off the court in the Finals.

I see. Perhaps our bigger difference here is our perception of Lewis then.

https://xrapm.com/table_pages/RAPM_29y.html

He was imo a better version of Klay. Not as good a shooter but unlike Klay he was a true defensive standout. He wasn't again all nba defense, but a tier below who could use his size and strength on ball and off. He could give Lebron trouble with his strength and stay in front of even a Kobe type well enough. Combine that with strong 3point shooting at seriously high volume.

I'll add in both Turk and Lewis were in their age 29 seasons. That's kinda the age where so many guys peak. 26-31 is kinda the prime and 29 is that perfect age for a playoff guy. Enough experience and maturity with your body not yet starting to give out. So it doesn't really shock me either that they kinda had that one magic season with those two.

Lewis had exactly one relevant season after that imo, and one season where he wasn’t a below average efficiency scorer.

Year and a half after the finals loss he was traded and never started a full season’s worth of games total after the trade. He’s exactly what I was describing.

[dhsilv2]

Well I did forget about Nelson but it's the same point, he was not at all an all-star caliber player and that he and Lewis pulled AS appearances is exactly what I'm saying, that whole team was carried by Dwight, and Van Gundy being ahead of his time.

But that's not really true about the rest of the team, Lee was salary dumped off his next deal (4th in total minutes) and Pietrus flamed out the next year as well (6th in total minutes).

The point is Dwight carried a crap ton of mediocre guys that year to the finals and the best years of their careers, that Lakers team put up a 105 in the finals the next year which is a recipe these days to get run off the court in the Finals.

I see. Perhaps our bigger difference here is our perception of Lewis then.

https://xrapm.com/table_pages/RAPM_29y.html

He was imo a better version of Klay. Not as good a shooter but unlike Klay he was a true defensive standout. He wasn't again all nba defense, but a tier below who could use his size and strength on ball and off. He could give Lebron trouble with his strength and stay in front of even a Kobe type well enough. Combine that with strong 3point shooting at seriously high volume.

I'll add in both Turk and Lewis were in their age 29 seasons. That's kinda the age where so many guys peak. 26-31 is kinda the prime and 29 is that perfect age for a playoff guy. Enough experience and maturity with your body not yet starting to give out. So it doesn't really shock me either that they kinda had that one magic season with those two.

Lewis had exactly one relevant season after that imo, and one season where he wasn’t a below average efficiency scorer.

Year and a half after the finals loss he was traded and never started a full season’s worth of games total after the trade. He’s exactly what I was describing.

He dropped off yes. But I think he was an all nba level player and as good as any normal 2nd player on a title team. You clearly have a much different perspective.

[tsherkin]

Lewis had exactly one relevant season after that imo, and one season where he wasn’t a below average efficiency scorer.

Year and a half after the finals loss he was traded and never started a full season’s worth of games total after the trade. He’s exactly what I was describing.

But this is a contextual problem. Yes, Lewis didn't have a lot of career after that, but it was mostly due to age and injury.

PRIOR to ever playing in Orlando, he had a 7-year run in Seattle at 18.5 ppg on 56.4% TS (with 4 seasons of 57%+), with three consecutive seasons of 20+ ppg game, and he had an AS appearance with them. Dwight didn't make him, Lewis was a huge part in opening up Dwight's offense as a stretch forward. He was a major enabler of the Orlando offense. Dwight obviously with his huge efficiency and gravity, but Lewis was like a wildly souped-up Robert Horry to Olajuwon or Shaq.

So dismissing his talent doesn't really make any sense, even if he hit his 30s and started to have injury issues and faded out. And he still managed to be a positive defender for the 2013 Heat. At some point, his knee was giving out (the need for surgery ultimately killing his final NBA contract, failing the medical) and he had sundry other problems up to that point.

But pointing to him fading in his 30s as a way to rip on the 09 Finals team isn't consistent with the actual roster or the talent level of the players involved.

[165bows]

Lewis had exactly one relevant season after that imo, and one season where he wasn’t a below average efficiency scorer.

Year and a half after the finals loss he was traded and never started a full season’s worth of games total after the trade. He’s exactly what I was describing.

But this is a contextual problem. Yes, Lewis didn't have a lot of career after that, but it was mostly due to age and injury.

PRIOR to ever playing in Orlando, he had a 7-year run in Seattle at 18.5 ppg on 56.4% TS (with 4 seasons of 57%+), with three consecutive seasons of 20+ ppg game, and he had an AS appearance with them. Dwight didn't make him, Lewis was a huge part in opening up Dwight's offense as a stretch forward. He was a major enabler of the Orlando offense. Dwight obviously with his huge efficiency and gravity, but Lewis was like a wildly souped-up Robert Horry to Olajuwon or Shaq.

So dismissing his talent doesn't really make any sense, even if he hit his 30s and started to have injury issues and faded out. And he still managed to be a positive defender for the 2013 Heat. At some point, his knee was giving out (the need for surgery ultimately killing his final NBA contract, failing the medical) and he had sundry other problems up to that point.

But pointing to him fading in his 30s as a way to rip on the 09 Finals team isn't consistent with the actual roster or the talent level of the players involved.

Not really Ray Allen was publicly clear the dude needed to get in gear.

The argument that he’s a good second banana on a title contender just doesn’t hold a ton of merit he wasn’t that good ever when we are talking that level and he wasn’t good longevity either for an archetype that is built to age well.

[NO-KG-AI]

They’d be fantastic today. Pau at the 5, and these two with some modern spacing is the foundation of a fantastic offense.

[og15]

Def a timeless title team u can drop in any era and would take 7 games to beat if u beat them at all

Wouldn't go that far, as even Boston didn't need 7, and it depends on the opponent and matchup.

The framework of the team from a talent standpoint is great, they would just have to make strategic and roster adjustments to be able to beat most modern finals teams.

It's not always about pure talent, and we have seen many times where strategy has beat raw talent, so while they would still be good in the regular season on raw talent, they wouldn't be just as good relative to how good they were in the league they played in, and they wouldn't be the playoffs top dog like they were without adjusting some things.

[falcolombardi]

Def a timeless title team u can drop in any era and would take 7 games to beat if u beat them at all

Wouldn't go that far, as even Boston didn't need 7, and it depends on the opponent and matchup.

The framework of the team from a talent standpoint is great, they would just have to make strategic and roster adjustments to be able to beat most modern finals teams.

It's not always about pure talent, and we have seen many times where strategy has beat raw talent, so while they would still be good in the regular season on raw talent, they wouldn't be just as good relative to how good they were in the league they played in, and they wouldn't be the playoffs top dog like they were without adjusting some things.

In fairness their 08 session only had half a season to incorporate pau +was missing a key role player in bynum

[Black Jack]

They wouldn't even make the West playoffs today.

literal plumbers and uber drivers.

[tsherkin]

Not really Ray Allen was publicly clear the dude needed to get in gear.

The argument that he’s a good second banana on a title contender just doesn’t hold a ton of merit he wasn’t that good ever when we are talking that level and he wasn’t good longevity either for an archetype that is built to age well.

I can't say I agree with any of that. He was clearly a good player. That he could have been better is not really salient to his evident level of ability.

Meantime, as far as Ray Allen was concerned, he has a bunch of quotes respecting Rashard's work ethic, talking about their future, and even some remarks talking about what could have been with Kevin Durant ahead of the Boston trade.

For example:

“As we got the number two pick that year for Kevin Durant, I knew we were going to be good because we have Durant, myself, and Rashard Lewis and I’m thinking ‘Wow, we can do some great things here’,” Allen said on James Posey’s “The Posecast.”… “But Seattle had other intentions. So when draft day came and I saw all the Celtics players that were getting traded I was thinking: ‘I’m out of here!’”

From here.

Meantime, objectively, Rashard was a good scorer. That isn't a debatable fact, there's no wiggle room on that one. In the two postseasons he made with Seattle when he was actually a double-digit scorer, he certainly struggled. The first of them was against the 02 Spurs. The second of them ended with... the 05 Spurs, though he'd struggled with his 3 against the Kings earlier in the postseason as well. Seattle was a decent team and obviously they had Ray for the 05 series, but it's not like that was a titanic squad, either. So if you want to let 11 games define him, that's your business, but the 7 years from 01-07 positioned him as a very good player, and he was trending up as he developed himself into a 20+ ppg scorer, and he was indeed much better in 09 and 2010.

Orlando was a good example of better deployment, no doubt, but Rashard was a second option. That's exactly the sort of player which benefits more from context than a proper first option. It doesn't diminish his ability at all. That he wasn't a perennial All-Star isn't an indictment of his utility or ability, and he certainly wasn't made by the context of the Orlando roster and Dwight.

[165bows]

Not really Ray Allen was publicly clear the dude needed to get in gear.

The argument that he’s a good second banana on a title contender just doesn’t hold a ton of merit he wasn’t that good ever when we are talking that level and he wasn’t good longevity either for an archetype that is built to age well.

I can't say I agree with any of that. He was clearly a good player. That he could have been better is not really salient to his evident level of ability.

Meantime, as far as Ray Allen was concerned, he has a bunch of quotes respecting Rashard's work ethic, talking about their future, and even some remarks talking about what could have been with Kevin Durant ahead of the Boston trade.

For example:

“As we got the number two pick that year for Kevin Durant, I knew we were going to be good because we have Durant, myself, and Rashard Lewis and I’m thinking ‘Wow, we can do some great things here’,” Allen said on James Posey’s “The Posecast.”… “But Seattle had other intentions. So when draft day came and I saw all the Celtics players that were getting traded I was thinking: ‘I’m out of here!’”

From here.

Meantime, objectively, Rashard was a good scorer. That isn't a debatable fact, there's no wiggle room on that one. In the two postseasons he made with Seattle when he was actually a double-digit scorer, he certainly struggled. The first of them was against the 02 Spurs. The second of them ended with... the 05 Spurs, though he'd struggled with his 3 against the Kings earlier in the postseason as well. Seattle was a decent team and obviously they had Ray for the 05 series, but it's not like that was a titanic squad, either. So if you want to let 11 games define him, that's your business, but the 7 years from 01-07 positioned him as a very good player, and he was trending up as he developed himself into a 20+ ppg scorer, and he was indeed much better in 09 and 2010.

Orlando was a good example of better deployment, no doubt, but Rashard was a second option. That's exactly the sort of player which benefits more from context than a proper first option. It doesn't diminish his ability at all. That he wasn't a perennial All-Star isn't an indictment of his utility or ability, and he certainly wasn't made by the context of the Orlando roster and Dwight.

It’s so weird how you jump into a discussion not even properly reading my post but continue on and on of something that’s not even related to the OP.

He’s like a Desmond Bane level player that’s just not an average second banana on a finals team.

[tsherkin]

He’s like a Desmond Bane level player that’s just not an average second banana on a finals team.

Playoff stats for second options on Finals teams going back to 2009:

2025: Jalen Williams (21.4 ppg on 94 TS+; injured); Pascal Siakam (20.5 ppg on 104 TS+)
2024: Jaylen Brown (23.9 ppg on 102 TS+); Kyrie Irving (22.1 ppg on 98 TS+)
2023: Jamal Murray (26.1 ppg on 101 TS+); Bam Adebayo (17.9 ppg on 91 TS+)
2022: Jaylen Brown (23.1 ppg on 103 TS+); Klay Thompson (19.0 ppg on 97 TS+)
2021: Khris Middleton (23.6 ppg on 96 TS+); Chris Paul (19.2 ppg on 102 TS+)
2020: Anthony Davis (27.7 ppg on 118 TS+); Goran Dragic (19.1 ppg on 97 TS+)
2019: Pascal Siakam (19.0 ppg on 96 TS+); by volume, Steph Curry (28.2 ppg on 111 TS+) [KD/Steph, major outlier]
2018: KD/Steph; Kevin Love (14.9 ppg on 92 TS+)
2017: KD/Steph; Kyrie (25.9 ppg on 104 TS+)
2016: Klay (24.3 ppg on 109 TS+); Kyrie (25.2 ppg on 106 TS+)
2015: Klay (18.6 ppg on 103 TS+); Kyrie (19.0 ppg on 107 TS+, obviously missed 7 games)
2014: Duncan (16.3 ppg on 105 TS+); Wade (17.8 ppg on 104 TS+)
2013: Duncan (18.1 ppg on 98 TS+); Wade (15.9 ppg on 93 TS+)
2012: Wade (22.8 ppg on 100 TS+); Westbrook by volume, but a KD/Russ pick 'em
2011: Wade (24.5 ppg on 105 TS+); Jason Terry (17.5 ppg on 112 TS+)
2010: Pau Gasol (19.6 ppg on 110 TS+); KG by volume (15.0 ppg on 98 TS+)
2009: Pau Gasol (18.3 ppg on 114 TS+); Rashard Lewis (19.0 ppg on 105 TS+)


In no way does Rashard Lewis stand out as "below average" compared to the second option performances over the last 16 years. He wasn't as explicitly efficient and awesome as Pau Gasol or Anthony Davis, but those guys were outlier-level performers, literally two of best on the list apart from KD/Steph (depending on who you consider the 2nd option) and 2016 Klay. "Below average" guys were scoring below playoff league-average efficiency all series, and scoring notably less than he did by volume.

[Optms]

If the Lakers could handle the Celtics big 3, OKC is beatable. I rank the KG/Pierce/Allen Celtics a tick higher than OKC.

If they got past the Thunder, East would be a breeze.

[tsherkin]

If the Lakers could handle the Celtics big 3, OKC is beatable. I rank the KG/Pierce/Allen Celtics a tick higher than OKC.

If they got past the Thunder, East would be a breeze.

The question is, how we they defend OKC. They might be able to squeak their way to a reasonable ORTG, but they'd need considerable time to learn how to manage the kind of offense OKC runs. It's a tough call, and the set parameters of when and how they meet would play in rather heavily. No adjustment? OKC obliterates them because those Lakers have never seen an offense like that ever before. Given more than just time in series to prepare for the average contemporary offense and understanding the new floor geometry as a result of 3PAr and stretch forwards being more prevalent, that's a bit of a different story, of course.

[ciueli]

They don't have enough 3pt shooting. Period. Their perimeter D would be problematic too.

It's like people have forgotten how they went out after Phil Jackson came back for one last kick at the can to make certain there wasn't one more title left in them.

They were beaten in 4 games by the Dallas Mavericks, so many on here criticize LeBron for losing to that team but they conveniently forget that the Mavs swept the Lakers that season so brutally that the Lakers players were acting out and trying to injure opposing players out of frustration in game 4, it was one of the low points of the franchise, a 122-86 loss in a must win game.

A big part of it was lack of 3 point shooting on the part of the Lakers, they shot 19.7% from 3 as a team in that series, the Mavs shot 46.2% from 3, it was ugly and clear if you watched the games that the Lakers had no idea how to defend a team like the Mavs that could score from the perimeter with such efficiency.

[tsherkin]

They don't have enough 3pt shooting. Period. Their perimeter D would be problematic too.

It's like people have forgotten how they went out after Phil Jackson came back for one last kick at the can to make certain there wasn't one more title left in them.

They were beaten in 4 games by the Dallas Mavericks, so many on here criticize LeBron for losing to that team but they conveniently forget that the Mavs swept the Lakers that season so brutally that the Lakers players were acting out and trying to injure opposing players out of frustration in game 4, it was one of the low points of the franchise, a 122-86 loss in a must win game.

A big part of it was lack of 3 point shooting on the part of the Lakers, they shot 19.7% from 3 as a team in that series, the Mavs shot 46.2% from 3, it was ugly and clear if you watched the games that the Lakers had no idea how to defend a team like the Mavs that could score from the perimeter with such efficiency.

Well, there's that. And that it was their 4th consecutive deep postseason run. And of course with Dallas, they were a heavily-underrated defensive team. Beyond that, the Lakers were incapable of guarding Dirk or Jason Terry. It's worth remembering that those two combined to shoot 21/30 from 3, and both shot over 57% from the field, and that the corpse of Peja Stojakovic in his final season punished them as well. Even scored 21 points... on 7 shots... in game 4.

Pau shanked it in that series. Artest was terrible in the 3 games he did play. They had no bench of value and Kobe just didn't have the legs to carry them forward. I don't think 3pt shooting was their primary issue. It certainly hurt them, but even if they had a better spread to the floor, they were toast just on the way they couldn't keep up with how well the Mavs were scoring. Dirk put down 25.3 ppg on 67.3% in that series, and Terry posted 19.8 ppg on 75.7% TS.

Read that again: it wasn't a typo.

[ciueli]

They don't have enough 3pt shooting. Period. Their perimeter D would be problematic too.

It's like people have forgotten how they went out after Phil Jackson came back for one last kick at the can to make certain there wasn't one more title left in them.

They were beaten in 4 games by the Dallas Mavericks, so many on here criticize LeBron for losing to that team but they conveniently forget that the Mavs swept the Lakers that season so brutally that the Lakers players were acting out and trying to injure opposing players out of frustration in game 4, it was one of the low points of the franchise, a 122-86 loss in a must win game.

A big part of it was lack of 3 point shooting on the part of the Lakers, they shot 19.7% from 3 as a team in that series, the Mavs shot 46.2% from 3, it was ugly and clear if you watched the games that the Lakers had no idea how to defend a team like the Mavs that could score from the perimeter with such efficiency.

Well, there's that. And that it was their 4th consecutive deep postseason run. And of course with Dallas, they were a heavily-underrated defensive team. Beyond that, the Lakers were incapable of guarding Dirk or Jason Terry. It's worth remembering that those two combined to shoot 21/30 from 3, and both shot over 57% from the field, and that the corpse of Peja Stojakovic in his final season punished them as well. Even scored 21 points... on 7 shots... in game 4.

Pau shanked it in that series. Artest was terrible in the 3 games he did play. They had no bench of value and Kobe just didn't have the legs to carry them forward. I don't think 3pt shooting was their primary issue. It certainly hurt them, but even if they had a better spread to the floor, they were toast just on the way they couldn't keep up with how well the Mavs were scoring. Dirk put down 25.3 ppg on 67.3% in that series, and Terry posted 19.8 ppg on 75.7% TS.

Read that again: it wasn't a typo.

That's what I'm talking about though, their entire team was built around going huge with Bynum and Gasol at C and PF and even Lamar Odom at SF and using their size to dominate the boards, I mean Bynum was an All-Star and made All-NBA 2nd team that year! That type of non-3 point shooting slow footed big lineup doesn't work against a top level modern NBA offence built around 3 point shooting, it forced those slow footed bigs to come out on the perimeter and contest shots creating mismatches and giving up wide open 3s, those players are incapable of help and recover and a smart offence can exploit that to make the entire defence collapse.

That Mavs/Lakers series was one of the first examples of what modern NBA basketball is today, it was definitely an inflection point, moreso when they subsequently beat a poor 3 point shooting Heat team loaded with stars, no one thought that was possible either. It caused ripples throughout the NBA, it's not a coincidence that the Spurs almost immediately pivoted to playing Duncan at C in the Tyson Chandler role and surrounded him with 3 point shooting after that title win, they created a new offence called pace and space and suddenly were back in the title hunt even though they hadn't won anything since 2007 with the same Duncan/Ginobili/Paker core.

[tsherkin]

That's what I'm talking about though, their entire team was built around going huge with Bynum and Gasol at C and PF and even Lamar Odom at SF and using their size to dominate the boards, I mean Bynum was an All-Star and made All-NBA 2nd team that year! That type of non-3 point shooting slow footed big lineup doesn't work against a top level modern NBA offence built around 3 point shooting, it forced those slow footed bigs to come out on the perimeter and contest shots creating mismatches and giving up wide open 3s, those players are incapable of help and recover and a smart offence can exploit that to make the entire defence collapse.

They 100% had trouble with that lineup defensively, I agree. Now, individually, either would be fine today, but running Pau and Bynum was a problem. Bynum was playing almost 34 mpg, and they did win the rebounding battle at either end. But they shot so poorly that it ultimately didn't matter. You can't have Dirk and Jason Terry shooting at Shaq-like percentages and expect to win a series, for sure.

And before I am mistaken, I am a large fan of that 2011 Mavs team. I don't mean to make excuses. They had very strong perimeter defenders, a good rim protector who could defend a bit in space and they had easy, breezy perimeter offense. And Jason Terry had the best series of his entire life.

That Mavs/Lakers series was one of the first examples of what modern NBA basketball is today, it was definitely an inflection point, moreso when they subsequently beat a poor 3 point shooting Heat team loaded with stars, no one thought that was possible either.

The irony of Dallas doing to Lebron what Golden State and the Wade/Shaq Heat had done to him is not lost on me. xD Not quite the same, but they definitely did something similar, which prompted more development of James' off-ball and back-down game.

It caused ripples throughout the NBA, it's not a coincidence that the Spurs almost immediately pivoted to playing Duncan at C in the Tyson Chandler role and surrounded him with 3 point shooting after that title win, they created a new offence called pace and space and suddenly were back in the title hunt even though they hadn't won anything since 2007 with the same Duncan/Ginobili/Paker core.

Mmmm. They were kind of already doing that in 2010 when Parker was healthy. And they'd added Matt Bonner as early as 07, and Danny Green in 2011. And you can't overlook that they'd drafted Kawhi ahead of the 2012 season, who started all postseason. And they acquired Boris Diaw in 2012.

So it wasn't really Dallas doing that which prompted San Antonio, it was a process they'd begun almost a half-decade prior, adding more shooting and reinventing themselves offensively. Letting the perimeter initiate and Duncan acting more as a decoy. Meantime, you can see a shift in his game as early as 2004 in terms of starting to take more and more shots above the FT line, which accelerated in 2009 and again in 2011 during the RS.

[ciueli]

It caused ripples throughout the NBA, it's not a coincidence that the Spurs almost immediately pivoted to playing Duncan at C in the Tyson Chandler role and surrounded him with 3 point shooting after that title win, they created a new offence called pace and space and suddenly were back in the title hunt even though they hadn't won anything since 2007 with the same Duncan/Ginobili/Paker core.

Mmmm. They were kind of already doing that in 2010 when Parker was healthy. And they'd added Matt Bonner as early as 07, and Danny Green in 2011. And you can't overlook that they'd drafted Kawhi ahead of the 2012 season, who started all postseason. And they acquired Boris Diaw in 2012.

So it wasn't really Dallas doing that which prompted San Antonio, it was a process they'd begun almost a half-decade prior, adding more shooting and reinventing themselves offensively. Letting the perimeter initiate and Duncan acting more as a decoy. Meantime, you can see a shift in his game as early as 2004 in terms of starting to take more and more shots above the FT line, which accelerated in 2009 and again in 2011 during the RS.

They were all in on Duncan playing PF before that, because they offered us Tony Parker for Jonas Valanciunas right before Dallas won the title:
https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2011/6/22/2236999/tony-parker-trade-nba-draft-rumors-jonas-valanciunas-san-antonio-spurs

Obviously BC said no even though it was clear we desperately needed a PG at the time, it shows just how completely wedded the league as a whole still was at the time to the idea of the traditional big man centre, if the Spurs move Parker for Val at that point they likely never recover, Parker was a critical piece for their team implementing the pace and space offence, I don't know how they would have replaced him and it would have meant continuing to play Duncan at PF in a lineup similar to the Lakers Bynum/Gasol.

[tsherkin]

[
Obviously BC said no even though it was clear we desperately needed a PG at the time, it shows just how completely wedded the league as a whole still was at the time to the idea of the traditional big man centre, if the Spurs move Parker for Val at that point they likely never recover, Parker was a critical piece for their team implementing the pace and space offence, I don't know how they would have replaced him and it would have meant continuing to play Duncan at PF in a lineup similar to the Lakers Bynum/Gasol.

My point was more what they were actually doing on the court. They squared away with the idea of spacing fairly quickly, and then as they were playing Duncan less and less, he was playing more and more away from the basket. Nothing about what Dallas was doing with Chandler and Dirk was really a major factor because it was all part of incremental change the Spurs had been working through for quite a while, was my point.