Garnett and Kidd vs. Dirk and Nash in today's NBA

[canada_dry]

Bill isn't a big KG fan. He's also not a good sports analyst. The problems with the Celtics was a terrible offensive system designed by Doc. Not KG not being able to score. They were running KG through the post when his natural game is much more predicated on face up. And yet he still managed to win a title in the very role you're questioning.

You always blame others. But hes never shown the ability regardless of where he's playing.


And Yes bill is. Voted him for mvp in 08. To this day is one of his biggest supporters in media. Loves him as a Celtic.

What he said about him in the clutch and late in games ive been saying for YEARS as have others. Its the big thing that holds him back.

Not being a great #1 option is one thing. His scoring not having the playoff resiliency needed is also one thing. But being a shook one late in games? Thats a sin too far. It's very very hard to build around that and win. And kidds not solving that problem on the team.

Thats when you need a superteam to win.


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There's nothing more useless than those who constantly use the word "blame" when discussing what happens. Doc's offense was simply not very good.

The 2008 Celtics who you're calling a "super team" had the 10th best offense in the league that year. That hardly sounds like any kind of super team, especially given Pierce was an average to solid defender and Allen by that point in his career wasn't even that. He was a fairly big negative.

Meanwhile the offense was +7.7 in the regular season and +10.9 in the playoffs with him. They would have been 20th in offense in those minutes without KG.

Meanwhile, you and I both know in 2025 that the least efficient offensive play is the post and we both know in 2025 having watched decades of basketball that KG wasn't his best in the post. And we both saw that Doc felt the need to give KG more post touches in the playoffs, especially in 4th quarters.

So the writing of Bill, who isn't a KG fan at all, is just hammering home harder that Bill in the moment didn't understand what he was seeing and as a result didn't write it in a way that would hold up. Which is fine. Bill's average read had a 6th or 7th grade reading level and his core reader doesn't understand the game well. But please go on about how Bill is a fan...the guy who loves to actually claim he is a KG fan, before doing the same bad takes he's done for years because he doesn't really get it.

Now that I've covered context, AGAIN. We saw KG as the go to scorer win a title. In 2004 with an offense better suited for his game, he lost in one of the greatest individual performances of all time to the Lakers in the conference finals. After putting on a master class showing to beat the Kings in 7.

Yes, we 100% have evidence to support that KG can win as the go to scorer.

And nobody was blamed here. There's a difference in blaming others and explaining what actually was happening.

Call it what you want but there have been multiple threads about kg now over time that you've taken part in and not once have you even kind of sort of conceded that kg has any responsibility whatsoever for any of his shortcomings come the playoffs. its always the teams his teammates his coaches management etc etc. Never some of his own legitimate shortcomings as a player.

Bill simmons simply put to words what a lot of us have been seeing with our eyes. He's a player who's already infamously sweaty during games and he gets somehow sweatier late in close games. Its no surprise his teams had success when he was paired with players who could take control late in games like casell and pierce . In fact playing that role is what won pierce fmvp. You can say that he wrote at a 7th grade level but hes had the most listened to sports podcast in the world and at the time he had many people in basketball media at the time saying the exact same thing. And i can prove it. It wasn't just him. It was the narrative on him and had been throughout his wolves stint as well.

Its just hard to win with guys like that. That's all im saying. Im not saying he wasn't great or elite.

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[canada_dry]

KG is the smallest guy of everyone you listed by a good bit. He wasn't built to play in the post. He shared the floor often with other big men. So yeah...he mostly played in the mid range because thats' where his game was. And you're contining to ignore my point about maximizing his passing game. You'd rather get slightly less effective shooting from KG while getting better shots for others from his passing.

16-<3 KG was 45% and Dirk was 47%
10-16 KG 45% Dirk 47%

And Dirk took 14% of his shots from 0-3.

From a scoring perspective KG was much more similar to Dirk than to the comps you're using. KG is an elite lob threat. He's pretty good off the dribble and in pick and roll. But in general...KG isn't a post or power player inside. Dirk's strength was he's a better shooter and faster decision maker. KG's strength was he was quicker with a better handle and a better pass. From TS% you wouldn't expect KG to be elite. But at his best he was very effective. But he combined that with really elite big man passing (well elite before Jokic changed the term).

The post isnt the only way to get inside the paint...he could use his handle to DRIVE the ball as the face up forward he was.

But hes so thin and weak he gets pushed off his line consistently by stronger guys that it wasnt a consistent thing he could turn to. So he was more RELIANT on his jumper than any of these guys and its a big reason his scoring didn't have playoff resiliency. The shot has high variance even for kg. Especially in the playoffs. We've seen that again and again.

You're trying to convince us kg was this perfect specimen but its just not true. He had way too many holes offensively.

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If you aren't even going to read what's said. Don't respond dude. Let alone with tapatalk...

Its true. You're trying to convince us he's damn near dirk offensively while being bill Russell defensively.

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[canada_dry]

The post isnt the only way to get inside the paint...he could use his handle to DRIVE the ball as the face up forward he was.

But hes so thin and weak he gets pushed off his line consistently by stronger guys that it wasnt a consistent thing he could turn to. So he was more RELIANT on his jumper than any of these guys and its a big reason his scoring didn't have playoff resiliency. The shot has high variance even for kg. Especially in the playoffs. We've seen that again and again.

You're trying to convince us kg was this perfect specimen but its just not true. He had way too many holes offensively.

KG was pretty skinny and it's definitely true that this held him back as a rim pressure scorer. He's not high up on the list of guys who can force volume scoring. I think it's totally fair to point out the main weakness in his game.

But people get carried away. KG with elite power/strength is probably the best basketball of all-time. Every player has a weakness. I think haters get a little too rabid about KG's. Jokic is slow, Steph is small, MJ doesn't have a 3-ball, Lebron doesn't have amazing shooting touch, Kareem wasn't a great ball handler, Duncan didn't have amazing ball skills, Dirk wasn't a good vertical defender. They're all still great, and so is KG.

And pointing out the weakness is all im doing. He was far from a perfect player.

Ive never said he wasn't great or elite or an all time great. I just don't want what the narrative around his whole career to be lost in time. Which has happened on real gm.

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[canada_dry]

Kidd went to two finals as one and KG won a title and lost in a conference finals as one. That's really great success my guy.

So you too want to pretend like kg taking the most shots on the team went well in 08(on a superteam) and not that they stuggled tremendously against teams in the playoffs they had no business struggling with like the hawks n cavs? 18 ppg on 17 shots in the finals is good and very capable?

I'd also refer you to this article written mid playoff run by one of the biggest kg fans in media who also voted kg for mvp when he started seeing first hand what a playoff offense with kg taking the most shots actually looks like and why a guy unreliable late in games is tough to win with. It didn't show "very capable " it showed needs a superteam with a big 3 and a star perimeter player taking the clutch shots to work.(something kidd is not) Context is everything.

https://www.espn.com/espnmag/story?id=3403820



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I don't really see how the 2008 Celtics struggles were KG's fault. When he was on the floor, they destroyed opponents by 10.55 points per 100 possessions. When he was off the floor, they lost those minutes by -10.71.

It's not a starters vs. bench thing. Pierce, Ray, and Rondo all had negative scores results whenever KG sat. He anchored a dominant defense (100 Drtg, which fell to 109.8 without him) and a very strong offense (109 Ortg, fell to 99.1 without him).

2008 Celtics playoff relative ratings:
With KG: +3.7 rOrtg, -6.78 rDrtg
W/o KG: -8.24 rOrtg, +2.4 rDrtg

You can blame KG for only playing 38 minutes instead of the full 48, I guess.

I've never argued offenses were better with him off the floor or that ges not a positive impact on his teammates.

My criticism has been just his own ability to put the ball in the hoop at any type of efficient level even on a superteam.

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[canada_dry]

You always blame others. But hes never shown the ability regardless of where he's playing.


And Yes bill is. Voted him for mvp in 08. To this day is one of his biggest supporters in media. Loves him as a Celtic.

What he said about him in the clutch and late in games ive been saying for YEARS as have others. Its the big thing that holds him back.

Not being a great #1 option is one thing. His scoring not having the playoff resiliency needed is also one thing. But being a shook one late in games? Thats a sin too far. It's very very hard to build around that and win. And kidds not solving that problem on the team.

Thats when you need a superteam to win.


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There's nothing more useless than those who constantly use the word "blame" when discussing what happens. Doc's offense was simply not very good.

The 2008 Celtics who you're calling a "super team" had the 10th best offense in the league that year. That hardly sounds like any kind of super team, especially given Pierce was an average to solid defender and Allen by that point in his career wasn't even that. He was a fairly big negative.

Meanwhile the offense was +7.7 in the regular season and +10.9 in the playoffs with him. They would have been 20th in offense in those minutes without KG.

Meanwhile, you and I both know in 2025 that the least efficient offensive play is the post and we both know in 2025 having watched decades of basketball that KG wasn't his best in the post. And we both saw that Doc felt the need to give KG more post touches in the playoffs, especially in 4th quarters.

So the writing of Bill, who isn't a KG fan at all, is just hammering home harder that Bill in the moment didn't understand what he was seeing and as a result didn't write it in a way that would hold up. Which is fine. Bill's average read had a 6th or 7th grade reading level and his core reader doesn't understand the game well. But please go on about how Bill is a fan...the guy who loves to actually claim he is a KG fan, before doing the same bad takes he's done for years because he doesn't really get it.

Now that I've covered context, AGAIN. We saw KG as the go to scorer win a title. In 2004 with an offense better suited for his game, he lost in one of the greatest individual performances of all time to the Lakers in the conference finals. After putting on a master class showing to beat the Kings in 7.

Yes, we 100% have evidence to support that KG can win as the go to scorer.

And nobody was blamed here. There's a difference in blaming others and explaining what actually was happening.

Call it what you want but there have been multiple threads about kg now over time that you've taken part in and not once have you even kind of sort of conceded that kg has any responsibility whatsoever for any of his shortcomings come the playoffs. its always the teams his teammates his coaches management etc etc. Never some of his own legitimate shortcomings as a player.

Bill simmons simply put to words what a lot of us have been seeing with our eyes. He's a player who's already infamously sweaty during games and he gets somehow sweatier late in close games. Its no surprise his teams had success when he was paired with players who could take control late in games like casell and pierce . In fact playing that role is what won pierce fmvp. You can say that he wrote at a 7th grade level but hes had the most listened to sports podcast in the world and at the time he had many people in basketball media at the time saying the exact same thing. And i can prove it. It wasn't just him. It was the narrative on him and had been throughout his wolves stint as well.

Its just hard to win with guys like that. That's all im saying. Im not saying he wasn't great or elite.

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Its also funny how he was all time great vs the lakers except for the 100th time in his career he has a poor elimination game as he scores 22 points on 20 shots and 2 assists to 8 turnovers and fouling out in a close game on top of that. All time great stuff with the chips on the line. Right.

Listen we get you really really really like kg. Im actually a fan of his too. And maybe he was having an all time series before the last game but no series that ends like that gets to be called an all timer. It doesn't work like that





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[cupcakesnake]

The post isnt the only way to get inside the paint...he could use his handle to DRIVE the ball as the face up forward he was.

But hes so thin and weak he gets pushed off his line consistently by stronger guys that it wasnt a consistent thing he could turn to. So he was more RELIANT on his jumper than any of these guys and its a big reason his scoring didn't have playoff resiliency. The shot has high variance even for kg. Especially in the playoffs. We've seen that again and again.

You're trying to convince us kg was this perfect specimen but its just not true. He had way too many holes offensively.

KG was pretty skinny and it's definitely true that this held him back as a rim pressure scorer. He's not high up on the list of guys who can force volume scoring. I think it's totally fair to point out the main weakness in his game.

But people get carried away. KG with elite power/strength is probably the best basketball of all-time. Every player has a weakness. I think haters get a little too rabid about KG's. Jokic is slow, Steph is small, MJ doesn't have a 3-ball, Lebron doesn't have amazing shooting touch, Kareem wasn't a great ball handler, Duncan didn't have amazing ball skills, Dirk wasn't a good vertical defender. They're all still great, and so is KG.

And pointing out the weakness is all im doing. He was far from a perfect player.

Ive never said he wasn't great or elite or an all time great. I just don't want what the narrative around his whole career to be lost in time. Which has happened on real gm.

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I think one of the main reasons people talk up KG nowadays (here on realgm and beyond) is exactly because the "narrative around his whole career" was so flawed.

For every KG supporter, there are 100 people who still criticize him for his time in Minnesota, or users who only want to talk about his one real relative weakness. It's calling the kettle black to complain about the other side of the argument, because KG discussion has always been dominated by negativity. There are a few nerds who look at the statistical evidence of how good he was, or make functional (film based, scouting report style) arguments for why KG was so good.

I don't really get why you (and others) get so fixated on KG's lack of scorin resiliency, when he consistently boosts his teams offenses overall, in a big way. There are more resilient scorers than KG that don't have the same impact. KG did it with playmaking, spacing, and finishing, while also adding a super hard-to-guard fadeaway that he consistently knocked down.

His playoff numbers suffer partially because he played on bad teams, against really good teams, who were able to key on everything he did. The Wolves were overly reliant on him, and didn't have ways to punish defenses for overplaying KG. Like I've said, he also wasn't strong enough to force the issue against every kind of defender. KG for his one healthy year in Boston, was excellent in the playoffs. He didn't have a great finals series on offense, and that's most credit to Lamar Odom playing excellent defense. KG was still great in that series, completely shutting down the paint against a Lakers team that had been winning with size. 2004 is the only other year we get an extended look of prime KG in the playoffs.

He was a player who played in extreme circumstances, relative to other all-time greats, and it heavily affects discussion about him. I'm pretty bored of defending him, tbh, but as long as people are going to insist on repeating the negativity, I'll probably continue to respond with why I think KG was way better than those people think.

[og15]

Garnett yes but I don't see Kidd scoring 20-25 ppg in today's game at all.

Kidd didn't have an impressive pull up game or a particularly good inside game, modern era isn't going to change that. So yes, if Kidd is scoring 20-25 ppg, he would likely have to do some forcing of offense and his relative efficiency would be pretty bad.

I don't think the pro Kidd/KG argument here would be that Kidd becomes a 20-25 ppg scorer, it's other things, but not that.

20 for Kidd with today's pace and Kidd's transition play isn't a wild take for what he might do some years if these two played 5-6 years together.

Of for sure, I'm not saying he can't do it, but that if the teams situation requires Kidd to be scoring 20-25 ppg, I'm not sure that is a pro argument for how good a Kidd/KG offense would be.

[dhsilv2]

Dirk and kidd

Prime dirk and Nash would prolly fail like their earlier attempts kuz Nash would be a liability on D and he would be better to run a run and gun offense where he has a more athletic big to throw it down to or throw alleys to

Dirk n kidd vs Garnett n Nash prolly a better question

I think Nash and KG is too good. The synergy would be insane. One of the best offensive players with one of the best defensive players ever, and their strengths accentuate each others and mask each others weaknesses. In my opinion, Nash is probably the best possible guard for KG, and KG might be the best possible big to put next to Nash. When I imagine different pairings of top 30 all-time types, Nash and KG seems like one of the best possible synergies. It's up there with Lebron/Bird and Giannis/Joker. Simply a perfect match that makes both players their best possible selves.

We saw prime Dirk play with post-prime Kidd. They won a championship, and they were many ways they really complimented each other. When I picture a younger (prime) Kidd (faster, more athletic, more transition scoring), it would be even better, but I don't think massively so. J-Kidd wasn't some probing ball handler who would unlock pick & pop looks. Dirk paired best with aggressive attacking guards, where he could use his gravity to unlock their scoring. Kidd's defense was super helpful next to Dirk, and so was his basketball iq, helping Dallas execute around Dirk.

How would you see a Kobe or even a Wade KG combo vs Nash? I think many here are thinking it would be better to have a resilient scorer with KG. Obviously, we saw that as guards were better with KG, KG's output got better. But none were really scorers so I'm not sure we ever got to see a strong scoring guard (Pierce is the most similar but I don't think that was the ideal combo) paired with him.

[dhsilv2]

You always blame others. But hes never shown the ability regardless of where he's playing.


And Yes bill is. Voted him for mvp in 08. To this day is one of his biggest supporters in media. Loves him as a Celtic.

What he said about him in the clutch and late in games ive been saying for YEARS as have others. Its the big thing that holds him back.

Not being a great #1 option is one thing. His scoring not having the playoff resiliency needed is also one thing. But being a shook one late in games? Thats a sin too far. It's very very hard to build around that and win. And kidds not solving that problem on the team.

Thats when you need a superteam to win.


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There's nothing more useless than those who constantly use the word "blame" when discussing what happens. Doc's offense was simply not very good.

The 2008 Celtics who you're calling a "super team" had the 10th best offense in the league that year. That hardly sounds like any kind of super team, especially given Pierce was an average to solid defender and Allen by that point in his career wasn't even that. He was a fairly big negative.

Meanwhile the offense was +7.7 in the regular season and +10.9 in the playoffs with him. They would have been 20th in offense in those minutes without KG.

Meanwhile, you and I both know in 2025 that the least efficient offensive play is the post and we both know in 2025 having watched decades of basketball that KG wasn't his best in the post. And we both saw that Doc felt the need to give KG more post touches in the playoffs, especially in 4th quarters.

So the writing of Bill, who isn't a KG fan at all, is just hammering home harder that Bill in the moment didn't understand what he was seeing and as a result didn't write it in a way that would hold up. Which is fine. Bill's average read had a 6th or 7th grade reading level and his core reader doesn't understand the game well. But please go on about how Bill is a fan...the guy who loves to actually claim he is a KG fan, before doing the same bad takes he's done for years because he doesn't really get it.

Now that I've covered context, AGAIN. We saw KG as the go to scorer win a title. In 2004 with an offense better suited for his game, he lost in one of the greatest individual performances of all time to the Lakers in the conference finals. After putting on a master class showing to beat the Kings in 7.

Yes, we 100% have evidence to support that KG can win as the go to scorer.

And nobody was blamed here. There's a difference in blaming others and explaining what actually was happening.

Call it what you want but there have been multiple threads about kg now over time that you've taken part in and not once have you even kind of sort of conceded that kg has any responsibility whatsoever for any of his shortcomings come the playoffs. its always the teams his teammates his coaches management etc etc. Never some of his own legitimate shortcomings as a player.

Bill simmons simply put to words what a lot of us have been seeing with our eyes. He's a player who's already infamously sweaty during games and he gets somehow sweatier late in close games. Its no surprise his teams had success when he was paired with players who could take control late in games like casell and pierce . In fact playing that role is what won pierce fmvp. You can say that he wrote at a 7th grade level but hes had the most listened to sports podcast in the world and at the time he had many people in basketball media at the time saying the exact same thing. And i can prove it. It wasn't just him. It was the narrative on him and had been throughout his wolves stint as well.

Its just hard to win with guys like that. That's all im saying. Im not saying he wasn't great or elite.

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The Celtics won the nba title in 2008.

But you're right that Bill and many other's don't understand what they're watching. The game is 48 minutes, but fans will place almost all the value on the final couple of minutes. What I've done with you is explain why you and Bill saw more issues than the data would indicate. And that has to do with bad play calls in the 4ths in close games where the Celtics seemingly moved away from what worked into more post action with KG.

Now as to KG needing a wing/guard as a scorer? I don't see why we are even discussing a given fact. I've said that over and over again here. I've even given examples of teams in the modern era where if we remove two guys and add KG and Kidd they'd excel. Big men never do well without strong offensive guards. The only remote example I can even think of is perhaps Hakeem (who also had Cassel) in his first title run.

Kareem - Oscar and Magic
Wilt - West Greer Walker
Duncan - Manu Leonard
Shaq - Kobe Wade
Russell - Hondo, Cousy and so on

Guys who never won
Ewing - he had Starks
Robinson - He had what Sean Elliot?

Even Jokic who's among the best offensive players, not just big men, ever needed great offensive play from Murray.

Having an solid volume scoring guard has been a requirement of nearly every NBA champion ever. So why would I be critical of KG for needing that, like everyone else? I certainly have agreed and said he would be best with a scoring guard here in this thread and anywhere else where it was posed. But that's not a valid criticism.

Just like Bill Simmons isn't a valid basketball x's and o's source. He's a nice historian who's more informed about Real World on MTV than how a team wins a basketball game.

TL/DR - I'm explaining why KG was a leader of effective offenses that were good enough to make conference finals and win NBA titles. If someone were on here posting that KG today could average 30 a game on a championship team I'd laugh at them. But nobody ever does that. Instead people drill into that KG's championship team went to too many game 7's. They want to some how ignore his 2004 run because they lost. Lets ignore than the 2004 Wolves at the 5th best offense in the NBA that year. And if you're going to tell me that's all because of a 1 time allstar in Sam Cassell, really think about this for a minute. I think Sam's wildly underrated and likely deserved more awards than he got. But please don't tell me he's some offensive savant who dragged KG to a top 5 offense.

[dhsilv2]

Kidd didn't have an impressive pull up game or a particularly good inside game, modern era isn't going to change that. So yes, if Kidd is scoring 20-25 ppg, he would likely have to do some forcing of offense and his relative efficiency would be pretty bad.

I don't think the pro Kidd/KG argument here would be that Kidd becomes a 20-25 ppg scorer, it's other things, but not that.

20 for Kidd with today's pace and Kidd's transition play isn't a wild take for what he might do some years if these two played 5-6 years together.

Of for sure, I'm not saying he can't do it, but that if the teams situation requires Kidd to be scoring 20-25 ppg, I'm not sure that is a pro argument for how good a Kidd/KG offense would be.

Me being likely overly technical here, but 50 guys averaged 20 a game last year. Kidd should be able to do that pretty easy as part of a great offense. 13 guys were over 25. Kidd getting closer to 25 suddenly is a serious concern. I know 5 points isn't a lot but in that context I think it's a huge difference.

[dhsilv2]

There's nothing more useless than those who constantly use the word "blame" when discussing what happens. Doc's offense was simply not very good.

The 2008 Celtics who you're calling a "super team" had the 10th best offense in the league that year. That hardly sounds like any kind of super team, especially given Pierce was an average to solid defender and Allen by that point in his career wasn't even that. He was a fairly big negative.

Meanwhile the offense was +7.7 in the regular season and +10.9 in the playoffs with him. They would have been 20th in offense in those minutes without KG.

Meanwhile, you and I both know in 2025 that the least efficient offensive play is the post and we both know in 2025 having watched decades of basketball that KG wasn't his best in the post. And we both saw that Doc felt the need to give KG more post touches in the playoffs, especially in 4th quarters.

So the writing of Bill, who isn't a KG fan at all, is just hammering home harder that Bill in the moment didn't understand what he was seeing and as a result didn't write it in a way that would hold up. Which is fine. Bill's average read had a 6th or 7th grade reading level and his core reader doesn't understand the game well. But please go on about how Bill is a fan...the guy who loves to actually claim he is a KG fan, before doing the same bad takes he's done for years because he doesn't really get it.

Now that I've covered context, AGAIN. We saw KG as the go to scorer win a title. In 2004 with an offense better suited for his game, he lost in one of the greatest individual performances of all time to the Lakers in the conference finals. After putting on a master class showing to beat the Kings in 7.

Yes, we 100% have evidence to support that KG can win as the go to scorer.

And nobody was blamed here. There's a difference in blaming others and explaining what actually was happening.

Call it what you want but there have been multiple threads about kg now over time that you've taken part in and not once have you even kind of sort of conceded that kg has any responsibility whatsoever for any of his shortcomings come the playoffs. its always the teams his teammates his coaches management etc etc. Never some of his own legitimate shortcomings as a player.

Bill simmons simply put to words what a lot of us have been seeing with our eyes. He's a player who's already infamously sweaty during games and he gets somehow sweatier late in close games. Its no surprise his teams had success when he was paired with players who could take control late in games like casell and pierce . In fact playing that role is what won pierce fmvp. You can say that he wrote at a 7th grade level but hes had the most listened to sports podcast in the world and at the time he had many people in basketball media at the time saying the exact same thing. And i can prove it. It wasn't just him. It was the narrative on him and had been throughout his wolves stint as well.

Its just hard to win with guys like that. That's all im saying. Im not saying he wasn't great or elite.

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Its also funny how he was all time great vs the lakers except for the 100th time in his career he has a poor elimination game as he scores 22 points on 20 shots and 2 assists to 8 turnovers and fouling out in a close game on top of that. All time great stuff with the chips on the line. Right.

Listen we get you really really really like kg. Im actually a fan of his too. And maybe he was having an all time series before the last game but no series that ends like that gets to be called an all timer. It doesn't work like that





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Just to be clear, I am not a fan of KG. I hated him as player more than people who don't turn off their tapatalk signature and insist on cluttering up every discussion with it.

But there's more to basketball than the box score.

[dhsilv2]

The post isnt the only way to get inside the paint...he could use his handle to DRIVE the ball as the face up forward he was.

But hes so thin and weak he gets pushed off his line consistently by stronger guys that it wasnt a consistent thing he could turn to. So he was more RELIANT on his jumper than any of these guys and its a big reason his scoring didn't have playoff resiliency. The shot has high variance even for kg. Especially in the playoffs. We've seen that again and again.

You're trying to convince us kg was this perfect specimen but its just not true. He had way too many holes offensively.

KG was pretty skinny and it's definitely true that this held him back as a rim pressure scorer. He's not high up on the list of guys who can force volume scoring. I think it's totally fair to point out the main weakness in his game.

But people get carried away. KG with elite power/strength is probably the best basketball of all-time. Every player has a weakness. I think haters get a little too rabid about KG's. Jokic is slow, Steph is small, MJ doesn't have a 3-ball, Lebron doesn't have amazing shooting touch, Kareem wasn't a great ball handler, Duncan didn't have amazing ball skills, Dirk wasn't a good vertical defender. They're all still great, and so is KG.

And pointing out the weakness is all im doing. He was far from a perfect player.

Ive never said he wasn't great or elite or an all time great. I just don't want what the narrative around his whole career to be lost in time. Which has happened on real gm.

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Well heck, if you want to talk narratives. There were guys talking about how KG just played too hard in the regular season and didn't have another gear for the playoffs like the all time greats. Lets ignore that KG had to play that hard to get his team where he got them. Nobody here has forgotten those narratives. They get brought up constantly. But early 2000's basketball analysis was trash. Lets try and improve ALL our takes from the early 2000's and come up with good ones.

Weirdly, I think a huge change would be that KG was actually a near perfect player. Nobody is perfect. Other than maybe Jordan or Lebron. But in terms of being a complete package, KG was a monster. Yes, at the highest of levels he was flawed, like everyone. The problem is that some people so massively over value iso scoring that they miss how minor that "flaw" is on a team constructed remotely well.

[og15]

20 for Kidd with today's pace and Kidd's transition play isn't a wild take for what he might do some years if these two played 5-6 years together.

Of for sure, I'm not saying he can't do it, but that if the teams situation requires Kidd to be scoring 20-25 ppg, I'm not sure that is a pro argument for how good a Kidd/KG offense would be.

Me being likely overly technical here, but 50 guys averaged 20 a game last year. Kidd should be able to do that pretty easy as part of a great offense. 13 guys were over 25. Kidd getting closer to 25 suddenly is a serious concern. I know 5 points isn't a lot but in that context I think it's a huge difference.

Yeah, certainly depends on who else is taking shots. 5 points consistently every game is a lot, I don't think you should dismiss it, depending on the player and their scoring skills and acumen, adding 5 points every game can be a big difference.

[LockoutSeason]

Why is anybody taking Nash/Dirk?

We already saw them play together and they didn’t even fit that well. Both of them got better when they separated. Nash is a ball dominant PnR PG and Dirk is the iso king.

Just because they’re both white and shoot well doesn’t mean they fit together.

[dhsilv2]

Why is anybody taking Nash/Dirk?

We already saw them play together and they didn’t even fit that well. Both of them got better when they separated. Nash is a ball dominant PnR PG and Dirk is the iso king.

Just because they’re both white and shoot well doesn’t mean they fit together.

Dirk had superstar years where he had the ball in his hands less than 2 minutes a game...some well under. Iso king?

The two didn't get to keep doing what they were doing together long enough. Both peaked when you'd expect a player to peak based on age.

[ShootersShoot]

20 for Kidd with today's pace and Kidd's transition play isn't a wild take for what he might do some years if these two played 5-6 years together.

Of for sure, I'm not saying he can't do it, but that if the teams situation requires Kidd to be scoring 20-25 ppg, I'm not sure that is a pro argument for how good a Kidd/KG offense would be.

Me being likely overly technical here, but 50 guys averaged 20 a game last year. Kidd should be able to do that pretty easy as part of a great offense. 13 guys were over 25. Kidd getting closer to 25 suddenly is a serious concern. I know 5 points isn't a lot but in that context I think it's a huge difference.

Kidd did average 19.6 and 20.1ppg respectively in the two playoff finals runs, including 19.7 and 20.8ppg in both finals series. Yea he was playing a lot of minutes (per 36 is 17.2ppg) and was not very efficient, but the precedence is there for him to boost his scoring and have it help the team. Also he was an mvp candidate averaging 18.7ppg in 03.

[dhsilv2]

Of for sure, I'm not saying he can't do it, but that if the teams situation requires Kidd to be scoring 20-25 ppg, I'm not sure that is a pro argument for how good a Kidd/KG offense would be.

Me being likely overly technical here, but 50 guys averaged 20 a game last year. Kidd should be able to do that pretty easy as part of a great offense. 13 guys were over 25. Kidd getting closer to 25 suddenly is a serious concern. I know 5 points isn't a lot but in that context I think it's a huge difference.

Kidd did average 19.6 and 20.1ppg respectively in the two playoff finals runs, including 19.7 and 20.8ppg in both finals series. Yea he was playing a lot of minutes (per 36 is 17.2ppg) and was not very efficient, but the precedence is there for him to boost his scoring and have it help the team. Also he was an mvp candidate averaging 18.7ppg in 03.

Those nets teams weren't getting there off their offense. So I certainly see the concerns of Kidd being a volume scorer. But that was a very different era in terms of pace. And Kidd was exceptional in transition.

[ShootersShoot]

Me being likely overly technical here, but 50 guys averaged 20 a game last year. Kidd should be able to do that pretty easy as part of a great offense. 13 guys were over 25. Kidd getting closer to 25 suddenly is a serious concern. I know 5 points isn't a lot but in that context I think it's a huge difference.

Kidd did average 19.6 and 20.1ppg respectively in the two playoff finals runs, including 19.7 and 20.8ppg in both finals series. Yea he was playing a lot of minutes (per 36 is 17.2ppg) and was not very efficient, but the precedence is there for him to boost his scoring and have it help the team. Also he was an mvp candidate averaging 18.7ppg in 03.

Those nets teams weren't getting there off their offense. So I certainly see the concerns of Kidd being a volume scorer. But that was a very different era in terms of pace. And Kidd was exceptional in transition.

Yea but if the argument is can kidd up his scoring and not hurt the team by doing so..I think the precedence is there. I agree that ideally on a contender kidd shouldnt be a 20+ scorer.

[cupcakesnake]

Dirk and kidd

Prime dirk and Nash would prolly fail like their earlier attempts kuz Nash would be a liability on D and he would be better to run a run and gun offense where he has a more athletic big to throw it down to or throw alleys to

Dirk n kidd vs Garnett n Nash prolly a better question

I think Nash and KG is too good. The synergy would be insane. One of the best offensive players with one of the best defensive players ever, and their strengths accentuate each others and mask each others weaknesses. In my opinion, Nash is probably the best possible guard for KG, and KG might be the best possible big to put next to Nash. When I imagine different pairings of top 30 all-time types, Nash and KG seems like one of the best possible synergies. It's up there with Lebron/Bird and Giannis/Joker. Simply a perfect match that makes both players their best possible selves.

We saw prime Dirk play with post-prime Kidd. They won a championship, and they were many ways they really complimented each other. When I picture a younger (prime) Kidd (faster, more athletic, more transition scoring), it would be even better, but I don't think massively so. J-Kidd wasn't some probing ball handler who would unlock pick & pop looks. Dirk paired best with aggressive attacking guards, where he could use his gravity to unlock their scoring. Kidd's defense was super helpful next to Dirk, and so was his basketball iq, helping Dallas execute around Dirk.

How would you see a Kobe or even a Wade KG combo vs Nash? I think many here are thinking it would be better to have a resilient scorer with KG. Obviously, we saw that as guards were better with KG, KG's output got better. But none were really scorers so I'm not sure we ever got to see a strong scoring guard (Pierce is the most similar but I don't think that was the ideal combo) paired with him.

I think Nash being able to optimize KG in all kinds of screening action is the separator here. KG loved to float around actions and swoop in with his athleticism. Imagine that action being Nash's paint probes. I think we see a level of scoring production from KG that's on a higher level than anything that happened in his career. The variety of 2-man actions you could run with this much passing and shooting in a guard/big combo feels unlimited.

I think with Kobe (assuming it's in LA in the triangle), KG would just be Pau. I think that would look very similar. You'd run a lot of action through KG, but overall I think his scoring role gets minimized next to Kobe for better or worse. Wade is a fun one, because you can use KG's spacing to optimize Wade's drives, and Wade is good enough as a lob passer to feed KG a little.