Should Toronto still want Kawhi?

[Snakebites]

What's really changed since they made the trade to begin with from their perpsective? Just proof of what was already apparent. You gotta figure they probably made the trade under the assumption the allegations were correct.

I always thought them welcoming him back was weird. But I don't think this should stop them now if it didn't stop them then.

[disoblige]

Can't tell if trolling but I'll bite

No one forced a gun to Ballmers head to begin paying players under the table. The players can ask for whatever they want. Max contracts, houses, reach arounds, whatever. The owners are the ones who sign the checks and the ones who wield the power, so the bottom line its all entirely up to them.

Article XIII — Circumvention

Section 2(a)(ii) prohibits an agreement involving compensation or anything of value provided to the player by a Team or Team Affiliate, unless permitted by the CBA.

Section 2(b) then says:

“it shall be a violation of this Section 2 for any Team (or Team Affiliate) or any player (or any person or entity controlled by, related to, or acting with authority on behalf of, such player) to attempt to enter into or to intentionally solicit any agreement, transaction, promise, undertaking, representation, commitment, inducement, assurance of intent, or understanding that would be prohibited by Section 2(a) above.”

"Leonard, through Robertson acting on his behalf, violated the circumvention rules by pressuring the Clippers to assist him in obtaining off-court income opportunities, successfully obtaining those opportunities, and failing to reimburse certain personal expenses paid by the Clippers" -nba report

[Tor_Raps]

What's really changed since they made the trade to begin with from their perpsective? Just proof of what was already apparent. You gotta figure they probably made the trade under the assumption the allegations were correct.

I always thought them welcoming him back was weird. But I don't think this should stop them now if it didn't stop them then.

Gotta assume everyone thought nothing major was going to happen from this incident when multiple teams trying ot pursue Kawhi. While Kawhi still got a slap on the wrist, everyone else got pretty big punishments to the point Kawhi's overall brand has taken a hit from this too.

Then you have the SEC investigating Darktronics where no one knows how Kawhi will be involved punishment wise and there are still obvious concerns/risks. Most of us still want to trade for Kawhi but there definitely are concerns that werent there beforehand.

[clippertown]

Can't tell if trolling but I'll bite

No one forced a gun to Ballmers head to begin paying players under the table. The players can ask for whatever they want. Max contracts, houses, reach arounds, whatever. The owners are the ones who sign the checks and the ones who wield the power, so the bottom line its all entirely up to them.

[1] Section 2. No Unauthorized Agreements.

(a) At no time shall there be any agreements or transactions of any kind (whether disclosed or undisclosed to the NBA), express or implied, oral or written, or promises, undertakings, representations, commitments, inducements, assurances of intent, or understandings of any kind (whether disclosed or undisclosed to the NBA), between a player (or any person or entity controlled by, related to, or acting with authority on behalf of, such player) and any Team (or Team Affiliate)
........
..........
"...it shall be a violation of this Section 2 for any Team... or any player (or any person or entity controlled by, related to, or acting with authority on behalf of, such player) to attempt to enter into or to intentionally solicit any agreement, transaction, promise, undertaking, representation, commitment, inducement, assurance of intent, or understanding that would be prohibited by Section 2(a) above."

And here is the definition of "Team Affiliate" in the same document. Show me where it says Aspiration or Daktronics?

From Article I, Section 1 (Definitions) of the 2023 NBA-NBPA Collective Bargaining Agreement (effective July 1, 2023):(ttt) “Team Affiliate” means:
(i) any individual or entity who or which (directly or indirectly) holds an ownership interest in a Team (other than ownership of publicly-traded securities constituting less than five percent (5%) of the ownership interests in a Team) (a “Team Owner”);
(ii) any individual or entity who or which (directly or indirectly) controls, is controlled by or is under common control with, or who or which is an entity affiliated with or an individual related to, a Team;
(iii) any individual or entity who or which (directly or indirectly) controls, is controlled by or is under common control with, or who or which is an entity affiliated with or an individual related to, an individual or entity described in Section 1(ttt)(i) or (ii) above; or
(iv) any entity as to which (x) a Team Owner, or (y) an individual or entity that holds (directly or indirectly) an ownership interest in an entity described in Section 1(ttt)(ii) above, either (a) holds (directly or indirectly) more than five percent (5%) of its ownership interests, or (b) participates in or influences its management or operations.

For the purposes of this Section 1(ttt): an individual shall only be deemed to be “related to” a Team or another individual or entity if such individual is an officer, director, trustee, or executive employee of such Team or entity, or is a member of such individual’s immediate family; and “controls” or “is controlled by” shall include (without limitation) the circumstance in which an individual or a Team or entity has or can exercise effective control

[lonzo_pelota]

Drake is from toronto and he's ChickenSh*t based on the way he now treats Demar Derozan and Lebron James, Kawhi is also chickensh*t as he is lying saying he had no knowledge of the circumvention or the shenanigans and sheisty transactions his uncle dennis did on his behalf, so why not reunite up in Canada were injures to his opponents allowed him to win a Chip

[AreBe]

Note these three extremely important facts:
1,TORONTO IS AN EVENT TOWN, NOT A SPORTS TOWN. KAWHI MAKES THE RAPTORS AN EVENT; THE ARENA WILL BE SOLD OUT. NON- FANS WILL FILL THE PLACE AND CHEER ON EVERY 3-POINT FIELD GOAL, DEMAND A POWER PLAY WHEN A RAPTOR GETS FOULED, AND BE PARTICULARLY CONCERNED ABOUT THE FOOD AND DRINKS OFFERINGS
2, , TORONTO IS AN EVENT TOWN, NOT A SPORTS TOWN. KAWHI MAKES THE RAPTORS AN EVENT; THE ARENA WILL BE SOLD OUT. NON- FANS WILL FILL THE PLACE AND CHEER ON EVERY 3-POINT FIELD GOAL, DEMAND A POWER PLAY WHEN A RAPTOR GETS FOULED, AND BE PARTICULARLY CONCERNED ABOUT THE FOOD AND DRINKS OFFERINGS
3 , TORONTO IS AN EVENT TOWN, NOT A SPORTS TOWN. KAWHI MAKES THE RAPTORS AN EVENT; THE ARENA WILL BE SOLD OUT. NON- FANS WILL FILL THE PLACE AND CHEER ON EVERY 3-POINT FIELD GOAL, DEMAND A POWER PLAY WHEN A RAPTOR GETS FOULED, AND BE PARTICLRLY CONCNERED ABOUT THE FOOD AND DRINKS OFFERINGS

That is to say: The Raptors need this trade to fill the arena at full -pop prices. And now the non- fans and the casual fans will sell the place out.

[MrBigShot]

100% worth it. With Ingram they are a team that can put up a fight but probably get bounced in the first round. With Kawhi they are a much more formidable team.

[Slim Charlez]

They almost made the 2nd round without Kawhi. I see them with a real chance at making the ECF.

The East looks better this season than last. They are now at Cleveland's level though which is that tier just below the elite teams in the East.

Right, so the Raptors (without Ingram and IQ) who took Cleveland to 7 games last year are on the same level as Cleveland after adding Kawhi.

Yeah around that level. I don't think they're anywhere near the Knicks or Philly and I'd have Miami slightly ahead as well. They're closer to Cleveland/Indiana than the Knicks or Philly

[durden_tyler]

It's not like they are a real threat in the East even with Kawhi... So yeah, they should go ahead and their choice if they want to suffer in this drama rest of year...

[Dominator83]

Note these three extremely important facts:
1,TORONTO IS AN EVENT TOWN, NOT A SPORTS TOWN. KAWHI MAKES THE RAPTORS AN EVENT; THE ARENA WILL BE SOLD OUT. NON- FANS WILL FILL THE PLACE AND CHEER ON EVERY 3-POINT FIELD GOAL, DEMAND A POWER PLAY WHEN A RAPTOR GETS FOULED, AND BE PARTICULARLY CONCERNED ABOUT THE FOOD AND DRINKS OFFERINGS
2, , TORONTO IS AN EVENT TOWN, NOT A SPORTS TOWN. KAWHI MAKES THE RAPTORS AN EVENT; THE ARENA WILL BE SOLD OUT. NON- FANS WILL FILL THE PLACE AND CHEER ON EVERY 3-POINT FIELD GOAL, DEMAND A POWER PLAY WHEN A RAPTOR GETS FOULED, AND BE PARTICULARLY CONCERNED ABOUT THE FOOD AND DRINKS OFFERINGS
3 , TORONTO IS AN EVENT TOWN, NOT A SPORTS TOWN. KAWHI MAKES THE RAPTORS AN EVENT; THE ARENA WILL BE SOLD OUT. NON- FANS WILL FILL THE PLACE AND CHEER ON EVERY 3-POINT FIELD GOAL, DEMAND A POWER PLAY WHEN A RAPTOR GETS FOULED, AND BE PARTICLRLY CONCNERED ABOUT THE FOOD AND DRINKS OFFERINGS

That is to say: The Raptors need this trade to fill the arena at full -pop prices. And now the non- fans and the casual fans will sell the place out.

How many nights a year is he going to be making Raptors home games an "event" by sitting on the bench in street clothes?

Also, while in 2019 Kawhi was the lead ingredient, there were also other crucial ingredients to making that gourmet meal. Paskal Siakam isn't walking thru that door. Fred Van Vleet isn't walking thru that door. Kyle Lowry isn't walking thru that door.

This team led by Kawhi isn't as good as that last one.

[babyjax13]

If I were them I would back out of the deal - wouldn't want to extend him at all with his injuries and off-court demands.

[maverick_41]

If Toronto need some success in November or January, why not. But if they plan to win a playoff series, they might be interested in players who are available April - June.

[Duffman100]

The East looks better this season than last. They are now at Cleveland's level though which is that tier just below the elite teams in the East.

Right, so the Raptors (without Ingram and IQ) who took Cleveland to 7 games last year are on the same level as Cleveland after adding Kawhi.

Yeah around that level. I don't think they're anywhere near the Knicks or Philly and I'd have Miami slightly ahead as well. They're closer to Cleveland/Indiana than the Knicks or Philly

Philly is being vaulted too high too quickly. We don't know how they'll mesh, we don't know if Embiid will be healthy when it matters. To me, they're in the giant 2nd tier that has like 5-6 teams including Toronto.

It's Knicks in tier 1. Then,

Philly
Toronto
Cleveland
Boston
Miami
Indiana

All grouped into a bloodbath tier.

[Black Jack]

why should Toronto fans/franchise care about Ballmer paying Kawhi $30M to plant a tree?

I mean maybe they are still a little salty he left them after the title? but other than that...

[jordb2k7]

why should Toronto fans/franchise care about Ballmer paying Kawhi $30M to plant a tree?

I mean maybe they are still a little salty he left them after the title? but other than that...

You're ALMOST there....

[dhsilv2]

Kawhi got paid under the table, he didn't murder someone. Y'all need to get a grip

Should Kawhi be made to live on top of a mountain peak, have his heart devoured by an eagle, only for it to regrow for the eagle to eat again tomorrow, for all of eternity?

Seems reasonable. Who do we pay for that?

[dhsilv2]

I never understood the price they were willing to pay. Brandom Ingram and two unprotected firsts for a 35 year old version of a player who has been one of the least reliably available of all major superstars over the past seasons. Ingram was their volume scorer. Without him, do they really think they have offensive punch to contend even with Kawhi? They can't just rest him 1/4 of the season and use their depth to arrive at the playoffs in good shape for the playoffs. And even then - when he was 27 and rested a lot - he still looked like he was barely making it through the playoffs. I thought he looked like he was wearing out by the end of the Finals and looked less effective than earlier. Was it smalls ample size randomness, I don't know. But I wouldn't trust him to hold up to a long playoff run at this age. Heck, he hasn't won a playoff series since 2021.

Anyway, even though I think he's still a better player than Brandon Ingram, trading Ingram and 2 unprotected firsts for him at 35 when you don't look like you're one piece away from a Championship is insane to me.

Kawhi at this point is still a better offensive punch than Ingram, who got locked up in the playoffs by Dean Wade (which was a key reason as to why they lost that series). You're not locking up Kawhi, at least not in the fashion Ingram was to the point where he was basically unplayable in the postseason. Even if Kawhi can't get you the offensive production he once could, he could still get you great defense as well if he commits to that end.

My big issue with this isn't getting rid of Ingram. It's getting rid of the two first rounders. Toronto is not in a position where they can go all in, at least not yet. And even if they could, I do agree that I don't think Kawhi is the answer. And the question marks regarding his health are a serious issue. If he's not able to go in the playoffs, that's another easy first round exit for them.

Leanard hasn't played a full playoffs since 2020. Ingram at least plays.

[The Laker Kid]

Yes. It wasn't him, it was uncle Dennis.

[ATLTimekeeper]

I never understood the price they were willing to pay. Brandom Ingram and two unprotected firsts for a 35 year old version of a player who has been one of the least reliably available of all major superstars over the past seasons. Ingram was their volume scorer. Without him, do they really think they have offensive punch to contend even with Kawhi? They can't just rest him 1/4 of the season and use their depth to arrive at the playoffs in good shape for the playoffs. And even then - when he was 27 and rested a lot - he still looked like he was barely making it through the playoffs. I thought he looked like he was wearing out by the end of the Finals and looked less effective than earlier. Was it smalls ample size randomness, I don't know. But I wouldn't trust him to hold up to a long playoff run at this age. Heck, he hasn't won a playoff series since 2021.

Anyway, even though I think he's still a better player than Brandon Ingram, trading Ingram and 2 unprotected firsts for him at 35 when you don't look like you're one piece away from a Championship is insane to me.

Kawhi at this point is still a better offensive punch than Ingram, who got locked up in the playoffs by Dean Wade (which was a key reason as to why they lost that series). You're not locking up Kawhi, at least not in the fashion Ingram was to the point where he was basically unplayable in the postseason. Even if Kawhi can't get you the offensive production he once could, he could still get you great defense as well if he commits to that end.

My big issue with this isn't getting rid of Ingram. It's getting rid of the two first rounders. Toronto is not in a position where they can go all in, at least not yet. And even if they could, I do agree that I don't think Kawhi is the answer. And the question marks regarding his health are a serious issue. If he's not able to go in the playoffs, that's another easy first round exit for them.

Leanard hasn't played a full playoffs since 2020. Ingram at least plays.

Ingram was injured for the last game and a half of last year's playoffs when they lost in 7. He was also awful earlier on in the series, and couldn't score on Sam Merrill because he was playing through his injury. I'll take Kawhi, happily.

[dhsilv2]

Kawhi at this point is still a better offensive punch than Ingram, who got locked up in the playoffs by Dean Wade (which was a key reason as to why they lost that series). You're not locking up Kawhi, at least not in the fashion Ingram was to the point where he was basically unplayable in the postseason. Even if Kawhi can't get you the offensive production he once could, he could still get you great defense as well if he commits to that end.

My big issue with this isn't getting rid of Ingram. It's getting rid of the two first rounders. Toronto is not in a position where they can go all in, at least not yet. And even if they could, I do agree that I don't think Kawhi is the answer. And the question marks regarding his health are a serious issue. If he's not able to go in the playoffs, that's another easy first round exit for them.

Leanard hasn't played a full playoffs since 2020. Ingram at least plays.

Ingram was injured for the last game and a half of last year's playoffs when they lost in 7. He was also awful earlier on in the series, and couldn't score on Sam Merrill because he was playing through his injury. I'll take Kawhi, happily.

Fair enough on Ingram. But at least there's a chance he'll play. A full playoff series from Leonard doesn't seem possible. Anyone doing the math on this trade has to almost assume there's no chance you have Leonard in the playoffs and you really should discount him playing at all after this coming year.