the refs, blowing whistles by expectation

[MagicFan3]

I record every Wolves game I watch, including tonight's. Just so I can re-live the horror.

Highlight the mistakes and send the tapes to the league office.

[ambiglight]

I think the refs "ineptitude" is overrated in general. Watching all different levels of basketball confirms that basketball is one of the toughest sports to call. That said, I really do think they need to evaluate some of the calls. Mostly in regards to impediment, by which I mean, how much a foul effected the shot, dribble, pass etc... not necessarily doing things like removing cheap off the ball contact fouls. This still has issues (aka fouls that only get called in a shot is missed/made) but in general I believe the calls are fairly consistent (relative to basketball).

great post.
nba refs are actually pretty good given the speed of the game.
they are going to miss call and make mistakes.
thats just a given.
what you dont want is for them to make game breaking bad calls.
i dont see that very often.
in truth a lot of teams are way to dependent on the refs to begin with.
win convincingly and you dont have to worry about refs.

[Phil Jackson]

[amcoolio]

-= original quote snipped =-



great post.
nba refs are actually pretty good given the speed of the game.
they are going to miss call and make mistakes.
thats just a given.
what you dont want is for them to make game breaking bad calls.
i dont see that very often.
in truth a lot of teams are way to dependent on the refs to begin with.
win convincingly and you dont have to worry about refs.

You must be a fan of a big market team or a team that has a marketable superstar or the Pistons, because all of that is true - for your team.

Teams without starts and/or in small market get sh%%ted on by the NBA constantly, its not even funny. Teams like Charlotte, who has lost 3 games because of the refs making horribly wrong "judgment calls" at the end of games because we don't have a Tracy McGrady, have to pull more than their weight to get by in today's NBA.

I mean, the evidence is there, go look at the games. The Rockets-Bobcats game where Wallace was called for the offensive foul with 4 seconds left, there is no way that would be an offensive foul if he was Lebron, Wade, or anyone else that the NBA thinks they can market. Or the Pistons-Bobcats game, where Emeka was called for offensive goaltending that would have won the game at the buzzer in OT. If that was the Pistons making that play, I GUARANTEE you that it would have been a legal tip.

Its obvious that the NBA is trying to protect its teams and marketable stars and the order is probably handed down by Stern himself. Thats what makes the NFL a much much more cleaner sport, because all 32 teams know they will get equal treatment from refs, whereas in the NBA, listen to this, you have to WORK for equal treatment, and some just receive better treatment automatically.

I mean, give me a break. Can you imagine Tony Romo getting away with intentional grounding because he is a star? Or A-Rod getting half the size of the strike zone because of his star power? Its totally unfair, and whats worse, Stern is openly embracing it, and saying nothing is wrong.

[FGump]

uh
they call em like they see em?

They call em like they're paid to call em. But Donaghy taught us that you never know who is their primary employer, and the calls make it even more uncertain..

[Egg Nog]

Watch every away game for the Wolves, it would be more than enough tape to show how badly the wolves get killed by the refs.

Hate to break it to you dude, it's not the refs.

[Showtime:Part2]

what they should do is deduct 10 dollars from a reffs salary for every bad call he makes. that would lend credibility to the system.

[DEEP3CL]

Theres only been one ref that been fired for making a bad call or having a personal vendetta against a player and that man is Jake O'Donnell.

For some reason he couldn't stand Clyde Drexler and would you know it , it was a call he make in the playoffs against Drexler that got him axed.

He actually fouled Drexler out of a key playoff game. There have been a number of refs fired but the league doesn't reveal who they are.

[DEEP3CL]

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O'Donnell's retirement marks the end of an era - referee Jake O'Donnell - NBA Report - Column
Sporting News, The, Dec 18, 1995 by Shaun Powell

The regular referees are back and all except one grabbed a whistle.

Jake O'Donnell, who never hesitated to make a tough call in 28 seasons, gave the NBA a double-technical and automatic ejection from his life.

In any other season, O'Donnell's retirement would simply be a passing of an era. O'Donnell was the last of the truly great referees, a man who belongs in the company of Mendy Rudolph, Norm Drucker, the late Earl Strom and Richie Powers. They had personality and presence.

However, O'Donnell picked a bad time to quit if only because of his last game.
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[Nutty Nats Fan]

The last play where Al was going for the rebound and it got knocked away, it's off Al? Everyone knew it wasn't off him, yet the refs don't give a ****, they like to kick teams when they are down. The wolves deserved this game, too bad the refs have Nugget jerseys under the jail suit.

LOL, you really don't watch any Nuggets games do you? They usually get it up the butt good from the refs too. One example, earlier this week AI was clearly shoved out of bounds, a ref was standing right there too, and called him for a TO. Next play, AI is bumped out of bounds, again he is called for TO.

[Muzzleshot]

Its obvious that the NBA is trying to protect its teams and marketable stars and the order is probably handed down by Stern himself.

Either that or unrealistic fans of losing teams are always bitching about how the refs are screwing them over. The Bobcats just aren't very good, deal with it.

[Pinot love]

The problem with NBA referees is they think they should be part of the game, they want attention. The best refereed games are those in which the referees go unnoticed.

[ldnk]

What's even worse in my eyes is the reactionary calls. You know, the ones where a player takes a shot, there was a tiny bit of contact but it was more or less one of those, just let them play type of things. The refs watch the shot, make sure it doesn't go in AND THEN call a foul. It isn't even like they are bang-bang plays. Some of those shots take 1-2 seconds before the ref blows the whistle. Those calls are the ones that bother me a lot more than the perception calls.

[cucad8]

[quote="amcoolio"][/quote]

So you've never watched baseball before then, have you? You don't think a good pitcher generally has an extra inch or three on the corners over some rookie pitcher? If you say no, then you're delusional. I'm a Braves fan, and have watched for the past decade or more as Glavine, Maddux, and Smoltz nibbled on corners that didn't exist.

As for the NBA, while I agree that overall the refs aren't all that great, I feel a lot more of the judgments we as fans make on calls are how they affect our team. Sure, there are those where everyone know they are obvious, but the smaller fouls, a Charlotte fan might see it one way, and a Pistons fan the opposite. Look at these boards after a loss. Every team just about blames it on the refs. At least most of the boards I have read. The refs are apparently trying to keep EVERYONE down. If that's the case, then how can they have an agenda? They don't. They just miss calls. And it's frustrating as hell, but to act like they are intentionally targeting specific teams, that's ridiculous. Yeah, Stern is controlling everything. No team in the NBA has played bad this year, according to their fans, it's just that the refs kept them from winning.

[Birth of the Cool]

I don't know how anyone can argue for NBA ref's. NHL Ref's used to be awful but NHL Leadership took a serious look at it & they are far better. Now I consider NBA ref's the worse of the major sports.

NBA Leadership (Stern) doesn't think anythings wrong. Remember his TV conference regarding the scandal and he called it an isolated incident (yeah & so is steroids in baseball) and then went out of his way to state that the NBA Ref's are the best ref's in major sports so the status-quo seems to work for Stern & Co.

Leo Rautins (Raptors announcer) always states that aggressive players gets calls (RJ of the Nets stated this also) but it's this type of thinking that shows that NBA Ref's are blowing their whistle due to the name on your back or your 'rep' and not just the letter of the law...to me, a foul's a foul period.

so,
- fouls based on offensive players reputations
- fouls based on defensive players reputations
- fouls based on if the ball goes in or not (the classic 'late call')
- fouls that reward defensive flopping (the 'charge')
- fouls that reward offensive flopping (the 'jive turkey')
- inconsistent fouls (1st quarter allows hand checking, 4th quarter whistles
in pockets)
- ref's that can't even properly toss a ball on jump balls.
- ref's giving players T's for 'dissing' them
- ref's making calls on what they expect to happen & not what actually
happens

and I almost never complain about Ref's in a game (I've done it once when Nets played Detroit) but that is usually because Ref's are so incompetent overall that the negatively affect both teams & the viewing pleasure of fans. When T-Mac says a game (Dallas vs Heat finals) was funny & that his friend's thought it was 'funny' and when a ref gets caught gambling & a ref throws out Duncan for smiling at him & on & on it is a tarnish on the game but $$ talks & Stern isn't willing to deal with it except on a purely superficial level.

[amcoolio]

-= original quote snipped =-



So you've never watched baseball before then, have you? You don't think a good pitcher generally has an extra inch or three on the corners over some rookie pitcher? If you say no, then you're delusional. I'm a Braves fan, and have watched for the past decade or more as Glavine, Maddux, and Smoltz nibbled on corners that didn't exist.

As for the NBA, while I agree that overall the refs aren't all that great, I feel a lot more of the judgments we as fans make on calls are how they affect our team. Sure, there are those where everyone know they are obvious, but the smaller fouls, a Charlotte fan might see it one way, and a Pistons fan the opposite. Look at these boards after a loss. Every team just about blames it on the refs. At least most of the boards I have read. The refs are apparently trying to keep EVERYONE down. If that's the case, then how can they have an agenda? They don't. They just miss calls. And it's frustrating as hell, but to act like they are intentionally targeting specific teams, that's ridiculous. Yeah, Stern is controlling everything. No team in the NBA has played bad this year, according to their fans, it's just that the refs kept them from winning.

No, im pretty sure that the NBA is the only American sport where the players, coaches, refs, AND COMMISSIONER openly say players get calls based on reputation. I mean, what the hell is that? You get calls based on how the NBA markets you or your play? Thats ridiculous. And you can't say they aren't targeting specific teams if you have watched any basketball in the past 5 years. There are teams that ALWAYS gets the calls bounced their way. Just look at Miami's phantom playoff run a few years ago.

[theGreatRC]

-= original quote snipped =-


LOL, you really don't watch any Nuggets games do you? They usually get it up the butt good from the refs too. One example, earlier this week AI was clearly shoved out of bounds, a ref was standing right there too, and called him for a TO. Next play, AI is bumped out of bounds, again he is called for TO.

Or how about when Al saved the ball, and when the ball went into McCant's hands, they called a whistle that Al was out of bounds; LATE AS HELL CALL.

Or when Camby made that one shot with around 4:12 to go and he got an AND1? LMAO, yeah...A Camby fade away with a shorter dude standing there gets called for the foul, just because Camby is long and looked like they were touching.

I don't watch the Nuggets, why would I? Nuggets shot 30+ more Free throws and didn't deserve some of those calls.

The only call the Wolves got was Marko called for the block when he ran into Iverson, your Nuggets won, but the refs were in the game too.

[drummerrob26]

I read on here some people saying that this is just fans of a bad team complaining and trying to make up excuses for their bad team. Let me just say that I am a huge wolves fan and I never expected them to be superstars this early on in their careers. What i didnt expect though is that if we were going to lose games, that we would lose based on playing bad or getting outplayed by better teams. I have seen games like that such as a sunday afternoon game where we got destroyed by the Mavericks. They beat us fair and square and we played horrible no ifs ands or buts about it. On the flipside I have been to games where the wolves have been up by a large amount and all it has taken is a few bad calls in a row to take away a young teams moral. One example I keep running through my mind was when I was at a hawks game. We were dominating the Hawks by 20+. We started to lose our composure and looked like we might lose our lead but we hung in there. Then of course the refs had to take over. On 2 consecutive plays we had 2 blown calls. The first was Marko Jaric I believe driving in to the lane and he gets called for a charge when the other player wasnt set at all. Then on the other end Craig Smith is set by a mile I mean it is a by the book charge and what is the call? of course a block. There we have a four point swing, we are demoralized and thats the end of that. This has been the story of numerous wolves games this year in fact. We are a young team with very little veteran support to back us and when we get upset and frustrated by the refs there is no coming back generally.

There was another post on here saying that if you just got a big enough lead then and just played your best then you shouldnt have to worry about refs so its your bad teams fault. Clearly you have never used your brain before. Take a second and think about that especially if you watched the Wolves game last night. We are not as good as the Nuggets and that is obvious. So in order for an underdog to win generally a lot of thngs have to go your way to win and you really have to play your heart out. You dont generally see a lot of blowouts by underdogs. You dont normally see the wolves, heat, or sonics beating the celtics, or dallas, or spurs or phoenix by 20 points or double figures at all. Well that means that a win could be the difference of only a couple of points. That means that 1 or 2 blown calls( like the jefferson call, and the iverson travel no call last night) can make or break your game. This season if it came down to it yes we do suck on some nights and we arent going to win a lot of games but there have been numerous bad calls and we are better than our record shows, maybe not by a lot, but by enough that we wouldnt look record wise like one of the worst teams ever.

[Hypz]

90% of calls on Bargnani are terrible.

[deeney0]

-= original quote snipped =-



Hate to break it to you dude, it's not the refs.

Just because the Wolves might still be 5-32 does not mean that the Wolves games have been reffed poorly - last night at Denver might've been only the first or second game this season that the Wolves lost due to poor reffing, the the poor reffing has been ever-present.



I think the calls have gotten so bad this season that something will have to be done. Call me an optimist, but I have confidence that we will see improvement over the next 2-3 years, even if it means clearing house.