Already in the HOF?

[Warspite]

The HoF believes your NCCA career is = to NBA and that INT play is > to NBA carreer.

So we should expect Christian Laettner to be inducted?

The HoF is much more impressed by VCs Sydney Olympics than his NBA PPG. Gold medals are important than NBA titles.

A player like Hedo is much closer to HoF than a Ray Allen. Okur is closer to the HoF than Ben Wallace and Darko is closer than Amare

Do some research... read an article....

The one last yr about the HoF wanting to limit American NBA players and be more "inclusive" even an outright ban of NBA players was talked about. Don Nelson, Pat Riley, Fitch, and Motta cant even get a vote.


Christian is elgible yet he hasnt been retired long enough.

[Mr. Savage]

Wade is in the bubble with T-Mac? Come on, Wade single handedly beat Dallas, he will get into the HOF for that performance.

No, they already admitted Bennett Salvatore into the HOF for beating Dallas.

[Doctor MJ]

Christian is elgible yet he hasnt been retired long enough.

I really don't think Christian's going to get in man. Can you point to examples of other great college players who busted in the pros who made it in the Hall? I mean Ralph Sampson's not in, and he was better on both levels than Laettner and has been eligible for quite a while.

[eloper]

It's important to note that Basketball-Reference's HOF probability calculation does not reward players for longevity or totals. By that logic there is no difference between Dikembe putting up 10-10-3 over 5 seasons in comparison to him doing the same over 17 years....obviously that isn't the case. It's a fantastic tool in general, but keep in mind that it isn't perfect, and guys like Mutumbo in particular who have been warriors of time are not rewarded by this system as they are likely to be by actual HOF voters. More importantly, it isn't a gauge of who deserves to be in the HOF, but who is more likely to be voted in based on previous entries.

[Warspite]

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I really don't think Christian's going to get in man. Can you point to examples of other great college players who busted in the pros who made it in the Hall? I mean Ralph Sampson's not in, and he was better on both levels than Laettner and has been eligible for quite a while.

Bill Bradley

The NCAA has pulled there support from the HoF and have now built there own HoF. The politics of the HoF will very much go against NCAA greats but my point was simply that the NBA doesnt hold any more weight than any other league or org. Theres plenty of players that are mediocre NBA but are likely HoFers. The Spanish rookie on the Grizz from what I have read is a borderline HoFer now. The star in Greece is a HoFer and he has little chance of ever playing in the NBA.

[wigglestrue]

Warspite, I think the context of international and Olympic criteria for the HOF has changed dramatically in the last decade. And I think the extent to which the HOF considers a college career is that a HOF case for a very, very good NBA player can be made great by including a great college career. Bill Bradley, Bill Walton. But a college career isn't nearly enough by itself, and isn't even remotely close to being on the same level of importance as the NBA. Juan Carlos Navarro is never making the HOF, not in an age when the superstars of Europe have bridged the gap and are proving themselves in the NBA. There are no "what if" players today like there were in the 80's. If you're a great player who happens to have been born in Europe, today you're bound to make it in the NBA sooner than later, and expected to produce there at the same extraordinary pace as any other HOF candidate.

[Doctor MJ]

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Bill Bradley

The NCAA has pulled there support from the HoF and have now built there own HoF. The politics of the HoF will very much go against NCAA greats but my point was simply that the NBA doesnt hold any more weight than any other league or org. Theres plenty of players that are mediocre NBA but are likely HoFers. The Spanish rookie on the Grizz from what I have read is a borderline HoFer now. The star in Greece is a HoFer and he has little chance of ever playing in the NBA.

Pretty good call on Bradley, though I think his place on one of the most beloved teams in history ('70s Knicks) helps quite a bit too.

I'd concede the point though if you weren't exaggerating so much. There's obviously a ton more NBA stars than stars from any other league. To claim NBA isn't given premier treatment is glaringly false.

[basketball royalty]

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Clutchness in the playoffs alone doesn't get you into the HOF. The reason he's on the bubble isn't because of team success. It's because on the court he was a scorer and almost nothing more, and there are plenty of guys who were more prolific scorers who aren't in the HOF. Just to pre-empt any PPS argument, that's what you get for shooting threes as well as he did, more points per shot. But being a high percentage shooter is not enough to get someone off the bubble, being a very good scorer is not enough, being clutch in the playoffs is not enough, being on one team forever is not enough, being a good person is not enough. He's on the bubble.

Agree to disagree? Also, Mutombo is a lock.

[Warspite]

Warspite, I think the context of international and Olympic criteria for the HOF has changed dramatically in the last decade. And I think the extent to which the HOF considers a college career is that a HOF case for a very, very good NBA player can be made great by including a great college career. Bill Bradley, Bill Walton. But a college career isn't nearly enough by itself, and isn't even remotely close to being on the same level of importance as the NBA. Juan Carlos Navarro is never making the HOF, not in an age when the superstars of Europe have bridged the gap and are proving themselves in the NBA. There are no "what if" players today like there were in the 80's. If you're a great player who happens to have been born in Europe, today you're bound to make it in the NBA sooner than later, and expected to produce there at the same extraordinary pace as any other HOF candidate.

Im not so sure but its an interesting thought. What will the voteing be like and will the system stay the same?? After all when talking about players like Darko, LBJ , Melo, Parker we are talking about almost 30 yrs before they will be eligible. Theres a good chance that when/if OJ Mayo is eligible I wont even be alive. 30 yrs ago Pistol was leading the NBA in scoring. In 30 yrs who will even recall Pistol, DrJ, Bird or Magic??

[Pancho_Pantera]

Reggie Bush.

[thefoulness]

Mutumbo simply does not deserve to be in the Hall of Fame, no matter how you slice it. Dude was never even the best player on his own team, or a Top 15 player in the league for even a season, much less over his career.

NO CHANCE.

[basketball royalty]

Mutumbo simply does not deserve to be in the Hall of Fame, no matter how you slice it. Dude was never even the best player on his own team, or a Top 15 player in the league for even a season, much less over his career.

NO CHANCE.

When he was on Atlanta he was the reason they were a winning team. I'd say that would make him their best player. 4 DPOY and a bunch of all star selections, plus he is a great humanitarian. Lock.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Lock is strong word to use, you're saying there's almost no chance he wouldn't get in.
As much as I like him, as much as I think he was better than Ewing in his prime (free to disagree, I know I'm almost alone...), he doesn't have the resume that usually translates in an authomatic HOF.

I have no problem saying he might get in, I'd say 35%. You can argue it's 60%, even 70%. But lock? 90+%?

[penbeast0]

Mutumbo simply does not deserve to be in the Hall of Fame, no matter how you slice it. Dude was never even the best player on his own team, or a Top 15 player in the league for even a season, much less over his career.

NO CHANCE.

WHen Philly made it to the Eastern Conference Finals he was the best player on the team . . . .what, you thought I'd say it was Iverson?

[bjebaz]

It's important to note that Basketball-Reference's HOF probability calculation does not reward players for longevity or totals. By that logic there is no difference between Dikembe putting up 10-10-3 over 5 seasons in comparison to him doing the same over 17 years....obviously that isn't the case. It's a fantastic tool in general, but keep in mind that it isn't perfect, and guys like Mutumbo in particular who have been warriors of time are not rewarded by this system as they are likely to be by actual HOF voters. More importantly, it isn't a gauge of who deserves to be in the HOF, but who is more likely to be voted in based on previous entries.

That's not correct. Basketballreference uses approximate value, which gives a player a value per year based on their statistical contributions and that accumulates.

[tsherkin]

A few things I forgot to address:
* Wade is in the bubble because his career would really be too short to make him a lock. Don't think he'd get in with the Walton's rule (short but terrific prime)

Walton's in as much for his college career as his NBA career, which did include an MVP, a Finals MVP, a ring and a 6MOY as a roleplayer while getting his second ring. But let's not forget that he also had a couple of titles with UCLA and had that 21/22 for 44 points game against Memphis. His rookie season with UCLA, they went undefeated and won by an average of 30 points. He won the James E. Sullivan award, the Naismith College Player of the Year, the USBWA College Player of the Year (the last two three years in a row and he was All-Academic as well).

So if you're looking for justification, mind that Wade doesn't approach Walton in terms of qualifications for the basketball hall of fame, which is (unfortunately the NBA doesn't have its own Hall) not just about NBA basketball but ALL basketball. Walton deserves to be in that HoF because it's not just about the American league.

[tsherkin]

Also, regarding Mutombo.

Let's not forget that this guy was a defensive monster. Let's not forget who he was in favor of being aware of who he is now.

He was the first guy to win more than 2 DPOYs; until Ben Wallace started to get really good for Detroit, Deke had DOUBLE as many DPOYs as the next best guy. He was a thoroughly dominant defender and rebounder and not nigh-incapable of scoring in an iso ala Wallace (also, he wasn't a totally useful boob from the line, either).

Dikembe Mutombo was never a scorer and that made it difficult to garner attention from MVP voters and such and he also spent the majority of his career at the peak of the careers of Michael Jordan and Karl Malone, played in an era with Shaq, D-Rob, Ewing and Dream. A little tough to mark him down for not getting consideration in that vein, don't you think?

More to the point, who here saw that Denver/Seattle series in 93-94?

Who was the best player on the Nuggets that year?

Deke?

Or do you think Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf, LaPhonso Ellis, Reggie Williams, Bryant Stith or Robert Pack were the best players?

C'mon now.

Deke isn't a lock for the HoF but he certainly deserves consideration.

[BirdIsDaKing]

Also, regarding Mutombo.

Let's not forget that this guy was a defensive monster. Let's not forget who he was in favor of being aware of who he is now.

He was the first guy to win more than 2 DPOYs; until Ben Wallace started to get really good for Detroit, Deke had DOUBLE as many DPOYs as the next best guy. He was a thoroughly dominant defender and rebounder and not nigh-incapable of scoring in an iso ala Wallace (also, he wasn't a totally useful boob from the line, either).

Dikembe Mutombo was never a scorer and that made it difficult to garner attention from MVP voters and such and he also spent the majority of his career at the peak of the careers of Michael Jordan and Karl Malone, played in an era with Shaq, D-Rob, Ewing and Dream. A little tough to mark him down for not getting consideration in that vein, don't you think?

More to the point, who here saw that Denver/Seattle series in 93-94?

Who was the best player on the Nuggets that year?

Deke?

Or do you think Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf, LaPhonso Ellis, Reggie Williams, Bryant Stith or Robert Pack were the best players?

C'mon now.

Deke isn't a lock for the HoF but he certainly deserves consideration.

Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf + Dikembe Mutumbo in NBA JAM TE 1994= MONEY