Shaq getting only 1 MVP will....

[MagicMadness]

'94-'95 Magic starting line-up:

Hardaway - 1st Team All-NBA, All-Star Starter
O'Neal - 2nd Team All-NBA, All-Star Starter
Grant - 2nd Team All-Defense
Anderson - 15.8ppg/4.4reb/4.1ast
Scott - 13ppg/43% 3P%, would set new single season 3-point record in '95-'96

Before this thread, I'd never heard anyone ever say Shaq carried a horrible Magic team to the Finals.

Nick Anderson is the team's all-time leading scorer for christ's sake. He averaged 19.9ppg the season before Shaq's arrival. His scoring actually started going down with Shaq/Penny leading the way. Dennis Scott was one of the deadliest 3-point shooters of the '90s - set a single game 3-point record, and also a single season record. Still, even without all that, how could Shaq be carrying a horrible team that had an All-NBA first teamer on it, along with an All-Defense 2nd-teamer? Horace Grant was a highly coveted free agent at the time of his signing, as well as a key member of 3 NBA championship teams. Blah.....

(Not to mention, having Brian Shaw coming off the bench. The Lakers know what I'm talking about - he was part of 3 championship teams in the early 2000's as the Shaw-Shaq Redemption reformed.)

And, the next season, the Magic were even better. However, they met up with the 72-10 Bulls in the ECF and it was all downhill from there...

[_BBIB_]

Steve Nash as a two time MVP is the biggest joke of the award.

By far the least efficient of players who've ever won the award

[TonyMontana]

A good example of the so called B.S MVP ....
Look at Barkley , only one .
Go figure .

[Reks]

You know the more I read topics on RealGM the more i see the ECHO. You know when one person says something then everyone keeps repeating it.
Here it's the MVP is a joke. Who the hell deserved it over Dirk last year?MOST VALUABLE PLAYER!!Hello???I see everyone repeating it yet I don't know if they know what it means. You have to be pretty damn valuable to lead a team to 67 wins... And Nash not deserving his MVPs are bull. What were the Suns without Steve Nash? Now theyre contenders.
If MVP is such a joke then why do people want their favorite players to win it..If Kobe wins or Lebron or shaq won 2 more it wouldn't be a joke? Kobe isnt crap without bynum or pau gasol. Well, he's a great scorer but thats it. What happened the last 3 years?? Bynum and Gasol come along and Kobe is the MVP candidate..Thats a joke...Even though he is valuable, he's not most valuable as he is proving in a comparison from this to last year.

42-40 without Bynum out of his shell or Gasol
45-21 with him riding Bynum or Gasol's jock

Shaq was injured a lot so he didn't deserve MVP. He was healthy in the Finals so he won Finals MVP. If he was healthier i think he would have won more.
But who cares right?? MVP is such a huge joke.And Shaq has 4 rings why does he want an MVP.

Ask T-Mac,Iverson,KG which one they would rather have.

[Doctor MJ]

Steve Nash as a two time MVP is the biggest joke of the award.

By far the least efficient of players who've ever won the award

Do you know "efficient" means?

[TonyMontana]

You know the more I read topics on RealGM the more i see the ECHO. You know when one person says something then everyone keeps repeating it.

Then maybe you should take a look at your own posts , since you do sound like your average Kobe basher ........

Here it's the MVP is a joke. Who the hell deserved it over Dirk last year?MOST VALUABLE PLAYER!!Hello???I see everyone repeating it yet I don't know if they know what it means. You have to be pretty damn valuable to lead a team to 67 wins...

Ya and then get knocked out by the 8th seed in the first round ....

And Nash not deserving his MVPs are bull. What were the Suns without Steve Nash? Now theyre contenders.

Contenders LOLLLL I hope they are , I mean look their roster , Amare, Nash , Diaw , Barb , Matrix etc .
This year , with the addition of Shaq .....
And what are the Suns with Steve Nash ?
The same , correct me if Im wrong ?
Never made it to the finals , they are barley holding on for the playoffs this year ...

Kobe isnt crap without bynum or pau gasol. Well, he's a great scorer but thats it. What happened the last 3 years?? Bynum and Gasol come along and Kobe is the MVP candidate..Thats a joke...Even though he is valuable, he's not most valuable as he is proving in a comparison from this to last year.

Kobe isnt crap .... Again you prove me right you have no clue WTH your talking about .

You prove my point , why Kobe as your example .
But since you did bring up Kobe , well lets compare your Nash MVP to Kobe MVP.
Since we all know the Shaq trade , Kobe has taken a team with no talent to the playoffs every year , we havent missed a playoff game since the 90s .........
Last year just like this year we have had injuries to our key players , just like this year .... Bynum , Ariza , Mihm , and now Pau .
But look at whos still playing his heart out and still carrying this team on his back .....
Name one player in the league today that has accomplished more than Kobe ..........One .
And please dont bring up Duncan .
Duncan hasnt had the garbage around him like Kobe has ,
Kobe not only he deserved the MVP last year but the year before .
And of course he's going to get screw this year too.
Lets face it Kobe will never see an MVP since his Colorado issue thats the only reason , even if he wins a 3 peat on his own .
Its simply cause of people like yourself who look at a MVP from a personal perspective than for the game itself .

42-40 without Bynum out of his shell or Gasol
45-21 with him riding Bynum or Gasol's jock

See what I mean , how old are you 5 ?
So now Kobe is riding Bynum or Gasols Jock ...LOLLLL

Shaq was injured a lot so he didn't deserve MVP. He was healthy in the Finals so he won Finals MVP. If he was healthier i think he would have won more.
But who cares right?? MVP is such a huge joke.And Shaq has 4 rings why does he want an MVP.

Ask T-Mac,Iverson,KG which one they would rather have.

Wait why ask them why dont we ask Nash since he has 2 MVPs and no rings .
Or better yet lets ask Kobe , since he has 3 rings and no MVP .

[Blame Rasho]

Name one player in the league today that has accomplished more than Kobe ..........One .
And please dont bring up Duncan .
Duncan hasnt had the garbage around him like Kobe has

We all know Kobe is great and all but Duncan has always been better than him. You want to compare casts... why don't you look at the casts he has had before 03 before saying such nonsense. TD took the most mediocre cast of players outside of the Dream to a championship and that is something that Kobe will never do. You believe Kobe deserves some hardware... good it isn't blasphemy, but don't go and bash and ignore other players accomplishments.

[High 5]

How has Duncan not accomplished more than Bryant? Just because he hasn't scored as many points? What else does Bryant have on him?

[TonyMontana]

Name one player in the league today that has accomplished more than Kobe ..........One .
And please dont bring up Duncan .
Duncan hasnt had the garbage around him like Kobe has

We all know Kobe is great and all but Duncan has always been better than him. You want to compare casts... why don't you look at the casts he has had before 03 before saying such nonsense. TD took the most mediocre cast of players outside of the Dream to a championship and that is something that Kobe will never do. You believe Kobe deserves some hardware... good it isn't blasphemy, but don't go and bash and ignore other players accomplishments.

Im confused specially seeing this type of reply coming from a global mod ..with all do respect .

Where in my post did I bash Duncan ? Or Ignore other players accomplishments .
If anything when I did bring up Duncan in my comparison I used him as the one and only player as an example that can be compared to Kobes commitment his heart , his I.Q as an all around player ......
Thats why I used him as an example .


Now if we are comparing lets say 2001 Spurs with the 2005 Lakers .

Lets see .
Tim Duncan N# draft pick
The spurs had David Robinson .... One of the best all around centers in the league .
We have Avery Johnson a P.G with the best leadership on and off the court .
Sean Elliot , Malik Rose , Danny Ferry
Terry Porter another Vet with a lot of playoff experience with the Portland.
Steve Kerr won titles with the Bulls.
Derek Anderson First round draft pick 13th pick
Antonio Daniels First round draft pick 4th pick .

And now the Lakers .


Kobe Bryant
Sasha Vujacic
Aaron McKie
Von Wafer
Smush Parker
Shammond Williams
Luke Walton
Vladimir Radmanovic
Lamar Odom
Brian Cook
Ronny Turiaf
Kwame Brown
Chris Mihm

Call me crazy , but to me I think the Spurs had much better talent since Duncan was drafted until now than the Lakers have had in their past 4 years since the Shaq trade .

[Doctor MJ]

Im confused specially seeing this type of reply coming from a global mod ..with all do respect .

Where in my post did I bash Duncan ? Or Ignore other players accomplishments .
If anything when I did bring up Duncan in my comparison I used him as the one and only player as an example that can be compared to Kobes commitment his heart , his I.Q as an all around player ......
Thats why I used him as an example .


Now if we are comparing lets say 2001 Spurs with the 2005 Lakers .

Lets see .
Tim Duncan N# draft pick
The spurs had David Robinson .... One of the best all around centers in the league .
We have Avery Johnson a P.G with the best leadership on and off the court .
Sean Elliot , Malik Rose , Danny Ferry
Terry Porter another Vet with a lot of playoff experience with the Portland.
Steve Kerr won titles with the Bulls.
Derek Anderson First round draft pick 13th pick
Antonio Daniels First round draft pick 4th pick .

And now the Lakers .


Kobe Bryant
Sasha Vujacic
Aaron McKie
Von Wafer
Smush Parker
Shammond Williams
Luke Walton
Vladimir Radmanovic
Lamar Odom
Brian Cook
Ronny Turiaf
Kwame Brown
Chris Mihm

Call me crazy , but to me I think the Spurs had much better talent since Duncan was drafted until now than the Lakers have had in their past 4 years since the Shaq trade .

Duncan won the 2003 title with one of the weakest supporting casts to win it all in history. Was it as weak as Kobe's weakest cast? No. Does that explain away the difference between winning the title and squeaking into the playoffs? C'mon now.

[Blame Rasho]

You said name one player that has accomplished more, and then said don't bring up Duncan. It quite clear to me and others what you meant by that.... Eh whatever.

You know you can spin anything how you want...

Honestly if you want to highlight the suckitude to Kobe's teammates to pimp out Kobe while glorifying the teammates of other players... fine. I just think you are flat out wrong. You can make much better points to show that Kobe Byrant is a great player or MVP worthy. Leading a so so team to the playoffs is nothing to brag about. It isn't a rare accomplishment. It has been done before by other players.

Look at this...

Kobe Bryant -- ....
Sasha Vujacic -- rare tall point guard who can shoot from outside and is a pesky defender.
Aaron McKie-- proven playoff performer and starter with the Sixers
Von Wafer--- a good slasher
Smush Parker--- excellent stealer.
Shammond Williams--- MVP player overseas
Luke Walton-- Son of a Hall of famer who is an ideal role player
Vladimir Radmanovic-- rare big man who can shoot the three
Lamar Odom--- a rare point forward who gets you double doubles
Brian Cook--- big with nice outside touch.
Ronny Turiaf-- ideal hustling big man who doesn't need the ball
Kwame Brown--- number 1 draft pick who showed potential.
Chris Mihm --- number 5 draft pick who has been a starter.

You see...I can pimp out your team. You can overlook our ungodly old,slow and then gimpy team that we would have that would be exposed come playoff time.

Honestly this is Kobe's MVP year... but people still need to say that he was robbed from it last year and the year before that. Why? I don't understand the logic. Dirk was a worthy MVP player, Nash was a worthy MVP player.

[ropjhk]

-= original quote snipped =-



Marcus Camby IS a better defensive player. The amount of swats he collects ALONE proves this point.

You said MVPs play both offense and defense. Dirk doesn't play defense, yet he won an MVP last year. Your logic tells me that Dirk is undeserving of his trophy because he is sucks on D.

If a player's MVP chances are hurt when his team doesn't do well, then shouldn't the same be true about a player's DPOY chances when his team has the most porous defense in the NBA?

Camby have never been considered for DPOY when his Nuggets team constantly ranks amongst the worst defensive teams in the league.

[Blame Rasho]

If a player's MVP chances are hurt when his team doesn't do well, then shouldn't the same be true about a player's DPOY chances when his team has the most porous defense in the NBA?

Camby have never been considered for DPOY when his Nuggets team constantly ranks amongst the worst defensive teams in the league.

Well I think that Camby sucks as a defender and should never be considered for the DPOY given that he at times isn't even the best defender on his team, but the Nuggets aren't a bad defensive team.

http://www.knickerblogger.net/stats/2008/d_de.htm

They just play at an ungodly pace that inflates the overall ppg scored on and plays on the perception that they don't play D.

As of today they are ranked 5th in Points per 100 possessions on D

[Joker]

-= original quote snipped =-



MVP plays offense AND defense

So hypothetically speaking, if a player averaged 40 points and 12 assists on 60% shooting and led his team to 70 wins, but played subpar defence, he would not be MVP-worthy. Interesting...

[youngLion]

Finals MVP > MVP. Shaq has 3.

Good point. I'm sure Shaq cares more about those trophies.

It does sound a bit funny that Nash has 2, Shaq one and Kobe none (though I think this is finally his year), there were good reasons to give Nash his trophies. Not only did he put up a career year with crazy percentages with Phoenix, he turned them from a lottery team into a title contender, basically overnight. He was the perfect player for that team, and he dominated.

In his second season in Phoenix, Nash's stats actually improved across the board, rather dramatically. He didn't do quite so well for the last few weeks of the season, but his stats, particularly his percentages were out of this world for most of the season.

If it had been up to me, I would have given the trophy to Kobe in 05/06 (I will admit my bias though; I'm a Raptor fan ), but I don't think the logic of giving Nash his second MVP was crazy.

[jaypo]

Shaq was not the most domiante player. When you examine season by season you can see why Shaq only has 1 MVP. People overvalue Shaq so think its some kind of horrible thing he has 1 mvp. Shaq is most dominate when

1. He never led the league in rebounding
2. He never led the league in blocks
3.He never was a top candidate for dpoy.
4. I believe only once his team had the best record in the league.
5. Yet most of his career he played with a top 5 guard.

So only someone with those credentials is dominant? How many times has Nash won DPOY? Or led the league in rebounding? Or had the opposing coach prepare a whole different game plan defensively and offensively only when they play his team? Or had coaches and GM's say that he is the most difficult to prepare for offensively and defensively? Or led the league in blocks? Do they keep stats for the most shots altered in a game? Or the most drives prevented in a game? Or how many open shots are created by the double and triple teams he commands? Or how about the most intimidating? Or how about being required to score, rebound, block, and defend? You see how Shaq's rebounds have gone up since he doesn't have to carry the whole load now?

Dominant means more than just the stats can show. He blocked shots without even laying a hand on them. His presence alone in the paint prevented driving and slashing. Watch him play Yao or Dwight and then tell me he is a poor defender. But in all honestly, I think he's probably more proud of the 4 rings and 3 Finals MVP's than he is of his 1 MVP.

[TonyMontana]

You said name one player that has accomplished more, and then said don't bring up Duncan. It quite clear to me and others what you meant by that.... Eh whatever.

You know you can spin anything how you want...

Honestly if you want to highlight the suckitude to Kobe's teammates to pimp out Kobe while glorifying the teammates of other players... fine. I just think you are flat out wrong. You can make much better points to show that Kobe Byrant is a great player or MVP worthy. Leading a so so team to the playoffs is nothing to brag about. It isn't a rare accomplishment. It has been done before by other players.

Look at this...

Kobe Bryant -- ....
Sasha Vujacic -- rare tall point guard who can shoot from outside and is a pesky defender.
Aaron McKie-- proven playoff performer and starter with the Sixers
Von Wafer--- a good slasher
Smush Parker--- excellent stealer.
Shammond Williams--- MVP player overseas
Luke Walton-- Son of a Hall of famer who is an ideal role player
Vladimir Radmanovic-- rare big man who can shoot the three
Lamar Odom--- a rare point forward who gets you double doubles
Brian Cook--- big with nice outside touch.
Ronny Turiaf-- ideal hustling big man who doesn't need the ball
Kwame Brown--- number 1 draft pick who showed potential.
Chris Mihm --- number 5 draft pick who has been a starter.

You see...I can pimp out your team. You can overlook our ungodly old,slow and then gimpy team that we would have that would be exposed come playoff time.

Honestly this is Kobe's MVP year... but people still need to say that he was robbed from it last year and the year before that. Why? I don't understand the logic. Dirk was a worthy MVP player, Nash was a worthy MVP player.

T.D I agree with you a 100% but lets be honest here , as far as the Laker squad you mentioned , they cant even come close to what Duncan's cast was at that time . Not even close .
We're talking about Vets that had the heart and desire to win ( D.R , Sean.E , Porter , Kerr , A.Johnson ) those names alone carried history and commitment to winning .
Also the fact that these players have played along side of one and another for a lot of years .
Throw in a N#1 darft pick ( Duncan ) then you have an automatic contender .
If it wasnt because of the Lakers ( Shaq/Kobe company ) standing in the Spurs way , the Spurs would have definantly had the 3 peats the Lakers had in those years .
Honestly you think if we switched players and I know your a Spurs/Duncan fan but honestly can you sit here and tell me if Duncan was on the same Laker Squad they would have made it in the Finals and won the Chip , I doubt that .
Now lets take Kobe on the other hand , with the same line up the Spurs had when they won the Chip , would the Spurs win back to backs ...
I would say most definantly .
All Im trying to point out is Kobe wont and he will never get the MVP respect as other S.Stars do .
Its simple , he is by far one of the best players today and for a long time to come , but his rep has been tarnished since the Colorado incident , and that alone is going to stop him from becoming an MVP , since we all know its not his game .

Again I think by far the best player in the league that have a shot becoming MVPs at this point and time are players like K.G , CP3 , Lebron , Kobe , TMac but does Kobe have a fair shot at it ?
I would have to say No.
Ever true basketball fan/player knows that .
Thats all Im trying to say .

[conleyorbust]

TonyMontana, I don't understand what you are trying to say but I'll try.

Kobe will probably win the MVP award this season. The reason the didn't give it to him in the past is because voters don't want to give the MVP award to a guy who's team doesn't have 50 wins. Now that his team is good, he will probably win the award unless his team falters without Pau or one of the other contenders has a huge closing stretch (personally I think KG should take it home but he probably won't). We know this because most members of the media call Kobe the front runner and the members of the media are the ones that vote.

As far as the Duncan - Kobe debate. I'm not sure but I think you are saying that Ducnan couldn't have won a title with the Lakers but Kobe could have won back-to-back titles with the Spurs. Why? That makes no sense. Duncan has always keyed in the best defense in the league and thats why his team wins in the playoffs. You can build a winning team around Duncan with role players, this is the first season you have seen a winning team built around Kobe and it features a dominant center, a double double SF with great passing skills, and an all-star FC in his prime who has led a team to 50 wins without any other stars. There is no evidence to support your claim that Kobe would be more effective at leading a team to a championship with little or no help.

[Blame Rasho]

Hell, i think it is beyond silly* for any fan to say that the Spurs with him (Kobe) would win a back to back titles. Hell, when you have to resort to hypotheticals in your own mind you lose the arguement.

I think it is just silly and quite ludicrous to do the whole " woe is me angle with Kobe" . Look they media hates him, he doesn't have a fair shot, wah wah wah... The fact is that other MVP's had better seasons... deal with it.

[Optimus_Steel]

The people who say that Shaq was not the most dominant: did they just start watching basketball? Are you judging him on his last few years or because of his attitude?

In his prime, Shaq was the most dominant player in the league. He had the most impact of any player. He made his teamates much better because of his precense and attention other teams gave him becuse he was unstopable inside. Plus he was an excellent passer. There is a reason he won 4 titles, and he took 3 different teams to the finals.