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Post#21 » by nate33 » Wed Mar 26, 2008 4:25 am

PapooseKN wrote:he's going to phoenix for the MLE...yup.

every article i read regarding his free agency in 08 talks about him leaving...but I can't see to find a better fit than Washington

Show me one article.

He has never said a single word about leaving. He is the leader of the team and a perfect fit in EJ's system. Now that he's actually playing defense too, he's become an indispensable player.

The Wizards will resign him. Of that I am absolutely certain.

Besides, nobody has the cap room to go after him. Memphis is in rebuilding mode and won't spend $8-10M on a 32-year-old forward. Philly might consider it, but I'm sure they'd rather go after Brand or a younger guy like Josh Smith or Okafor. Nobody else has cap room.
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Post#22 » by Spykes » Wed Mar 26, 2008 4:51 am

I wish Jamison was a little bit younger and that the Blazers had enough cap space for him this summer. I've always really liked his game and he'd be a great SF for Portland.
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Post#23 » by Texas Longhorns » Wed Mar 26, 2008 5:04 am

Reggie Miller is the best shooter of all-time.
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Post#24 » by legacyinthemakin89c » Wed Mar 26, 2008 5:10 am

nate33 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-


You've got it backwards. If anything, it's BETTER to shoot exclusively 3-pointers at a 33% clip than it is to shoot exclusively 2-pointers at a 50% clip. Both players will have an eFG% of 50%, but the guy who shoots threes will give his team more opportunities for offensive rebounds.

Consider a 3-point chucker who goes 4-12. That's 12 points on 12 shots. But that's also 8 missed shots. Teams grab the offensive board 30% of the time so his teammates would grab almost 3 of those misses.

If 2-Point Shooter goes 6-12, he also scores 12 points on 12 shots. But his teammates get only 6 opportunities for offensive boards. They'll grab slightly less than 2 of them. Ergo, 3-point Chucker ended up providing his team with one additional possession over the course of the game.


Just want to say that is quite possibly the best analysis I've seen in a long time, did you find the statistics somewhere, or did you figure it out yourself?
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Post#25 » by mistatwo mayn » Wed Mar 26, 2008 6:16 am

I would love if he pulled a Webber and returned to the Warriors.
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Post#26 » by lukeridenour » Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:08 am

sarah42 wrote:i don't hate the dude miller.

but i doubt he really likes his percentages.
at the same time, other dudes shoot at the PF and are around 50% for the year.

thank god the wizards are in the east.

he's obviously their mvp this year with gilbert out.


the traditional PF should shoot a high percentage. you are absolutely right there.

however, how many PF would you take over jamison? just because he shoots 44% doesnt mean hes not a top 10 pf in the league. hes one of 5 players to average 20-10. Its great to have a pf that shoots 50% but just because they dont doesnt mean that they are not effective.

IMO these are the top PF in the league right now:
TD
KG
Amare
Dirk
Boozer
Bosh
Jamison
Gasol
Al Jefferson
David West
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Post#27 » by cdubbz » Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:34 am

cwebb was a great powerfoward for many many many years. He was elite. He could do it all...dribble, pass, post up, jumper, solid defense. What a talented player...his kings days were his glory days and he was amazing.
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Post#28 » by BRINGTHEPAIN » Wed Mar 26, 2008 12:38 pm

How about Jermaine O'Neal, that guy shoots 44% and doesn't even attempt threes. Whats his story? Very easy to shoot a high% with him on NBA LIVE video games.
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Post#29 » by Ryoga Hibiki » Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:19 pm

Jamison is not very efficient no matter what formula you use, .522 ts% for a volume scorer is low, doesnt matter what position he plays.
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Post#30 » by BrooklynBulls » Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:29 pm

nate33 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-


You've got it backwards. If anything, it's BETTER to shoot exclusively 3-pointers at a 33% clip than it is to shoot exclusively 2-pointers at a 50% clip. Both players will have an eFG% of 50%, but the guy who shoots threes will give his team more opportunities for offensive rebounds.

Consider a 3-point chucker who goes 4-12. That's 12 points on 12 shots. But that's also 8 missed shots. Teams grab the offensive board 30% of the time so his teammates would grab almost 3 of those misses.

If 2-Point Shooter goes 6-12, he also scores 12 points on 12 shots. But his teammates get only 6 opportunities for offensive boards. They'll grab slightly less than 2 of them. Ergo, 3-point Chucker ended up providing his team with one additional possession over the course of the game.


I disagree with this line of thinking. The logic is sound, but incomplete. You do not consider the defensive impact of shooting 3-pointers. While it is true that shooting 3's generate offensive rebounds, they also generate long rebounds, and more of them, than do 2 point misses. The effect is an easy transition bucket. While these buckets do not happen at every missed three point opportunity, they are prevalent enough to matter. 2 point shots go in more frequently, meaning that the transition is likely stopped, given sound defense.

What good is it to provide one additional possession, when you have given the opposing team a free two points on the break?

Not only that, but 2 point shots are more likely to draw fouls.

The defensive effect of course does not cancel out the benefit of shooting 3's, but rather mitigates it. The ramifications are that yes, it is better to shoot 3's than long 2's, but it is likely better to shoot close 2's than 3's.
Basically, your argument is flawed in that you do not consider defense or the likelihood of foul shots per type of shot.

I do agree with you that taking two steps back and shooting the 3 is likely a better option that being an 18-foot jump shooter.
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Post#31 » by nate33 » Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:22 pm

BrooklynBulls wrote:I disagree with this line of thinking. The logic is sound, but incomplete. You do not consider the defensive impact of shooting 3-pointers. While it is true that shooting 3's generate offensive rebounds, they also generate long rebounds, and more of them, than do 2 point misses. The effect is an easy transition bucket. While these buckets do not happen at every missed three point opportunity, they are prevalent enough to matter. 2 point shots go in more frequently, meaning that the transition is likely stopped, given sound defense.

What good is it to provide one additional possession, when you have given the opposing team a free two points on the break?

Not only that, but 2 point shots are more likely to draw fouls.

The defensive effect of course does not cancel out the benefit of shooting 3's, but rather mitigates it. The ramifications are that yes, it is better to shoot 3's than long 2's, but it is likely better to shoot close 2's than 3's.
Basically, your argument is flawed in that you do not consider defense or the likelihood of foul shots per type of shot.

I do agree with you that taking two steps back and shooting the 3 is likely a better option that being an 18-foot jump shooter.

Those are all good points. I don't really disagree with any of them. There are definitely some intangible factors where 2-point attempts provide an edge over 3-point attempts.

My only real point is that, all other things being equal, a 33% 3-point shooter gives his team an advantage over a 50% two point shooter. At the starting point of the analysis, you must acknowledge the mathematics of the situation. Then you can study the intangibles to see if the 2-point shooter can make up the difference.

I think you overrate the impact of long rebounds leading to fast breaks. I recall a study somewhere that showed that the marginal increase in fast breaks generated from 3-point misses is negligible.

The strongest argument in favor of 2-pointers is the additional FT's generated and the likely increase in TS% (as well as causing the defense to get into foul trouble). I also think 2-point attempts generally make the defense work a little harder.

On the other hand, having a good 3-point shooting big man has other positive ramifications other than the improved eFG%. Specifically, the floor spacing makes things much easier for teammates. Effectively, a good 3-point shooter helps his team on every possession, even when he doesn't touch the ball. Jamison's incredible on/off differential is a testament to this. A perimeter big man also draws out opposing big men, making it easier for guards to get their shots off in the lane.

There are ten big men in the league who shoot at least .333 from 3-point range and have made more than 50 of them so far this season. Here are their on/off differentials on offense:

bargnani,andrea +3.3
harrington,al +2.6
jamison,antawn +13.8
kleiza,linas +4.6
marion,shawn +3.3 (+1.2 with Miami)
murphy,troy +3.3
nowitzki,dirk +14.4
okur,mehmet +3.8
radmanovic,vladi +8.8
wallace,rasheed +2.1

I just looked this up this myself, and even I'm surprised by the results. It's truly remarkable. In EVERY SINGLE CASE, whenever a big man can shoot 3's with respectable frequency and accuracy, he helps out his team's offense, sometimes dramatically. Nowitzki and Jamison rank 5th and 6th in the league in offensive on/off differential. Radmanovic is 15th.
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Post#32 » by nate33 » Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:34 pm

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:Jamison is not very efficient no matter what formula you use, .522 ts% for a volume scorer is low, doesnt matter what position he plays.

True. His true shooting percentage isn't all that great. But once you factor turnovers, he compares much more favorably.

There are 31 players averaging 20 points per game or more. Their average turnover rate is 2.7. Jamison's is 1.4. Effectively, Jamison's is saving his team 1.3 possessions per game relative to his peers by avoiding turnovers. That's equivalent to shaving off 1.7 missed field goal attempts from his average (after accounting for the chances of offensive rebounds).

If you recalculate his TS% but shave off an additional 1.7 missed FGA's, his TS% comes out to .571.

He is getting 21.7 points per game with the equivalent TS% of .571 as the one of only two legit scorers on his team (and the ONLY legit scorer when Butler was hurt). As a Wizards' fan, I have no complaints.
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Post#33 » by amcoolio » Wed Mar 26, 2008 4:43 pm

Jamison has said multiple times he wants to finish his career in Charlotte, plus he works out in the offseason with the Bobcats.

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Post#34 » by FARMERMAN10 » Wed Mar 26, 2008 5:31 pm

amcoolio, whats the cats' cap situation for this next season?

If I remember correctly, the Richardson and Mohammed trades leave us with only a couple million under the cap am I right?

it would be intriguing though, Jamison maintains a home right near my place in the Weddington area, so he definitely likes North Carolina.
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Post#35 » by celticfan42487 » Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:23 pm

edit: Nevermind I see my response had already been said.

edit again: Nate where did you get the statistic that PF shooting a 3 pointer leads to offensive rebounds 30% of the time? It seems pretty high, but that just means I'd be pissed off at my team 30% of the time :lol:
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Post#36 » by BrooklynBulls » Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:25 am

nate33 wrote:I think you overrate the impact of long rebounds leading to fast breaks. I recall a study somewhere that showed that the marginal increase in fast breaks generated from 3-point misses is negligible.

The strongest argument in favor of 2-pointers is the additional FT's generated and the likely increase in TS% (as well as causing the defense to get into foul trouble). I also think 2-point attempts generally make the defense work a little harder.

On the other hand, having a good 3-point shooting big man has other positive ramifications other than the improved eFG%. Specifically, the floor spacing makes things much easier for teammates. Effectively, a good 3-point shooter helps his team on every possession, even when he doesn't touch the ball. Jamison's incredible on/off differential is a testament to this. A perimeter big man also draws out opposing big men, making it easier for guards to get their shots off in the lane.

There are ten big men in the league who shoot at least .333 from 3-point range and have made more than 50 of them so far this season. Here are their on/off differentials on offense:

bargnani,andrea +3.3
harrington,al +2.6
jamison,antawn +13.8
kleiza,linas +4.6
marion,shawn +3.3 (+1.2 with Miami)
murphy,troy +3.3
nowitzki,dirk +14.4
okur,mehmet +3.8
radmanovic,vladi +8.8
wallace,rasheed +2.1

I just looked this up this myself, and even I'm surprised by the results. It's truly remarkable. In EVERY SINGLE CASE, whenever a big man can shoot 3's with respectable frequency and accuracy, he helps out his team's offense, sometimes dramatically. Nowitzki and Jamison rank 5th and 6th in the league in offensive on/off differential. Radmanovic is 15th.


I actually agree with you on these points, I only thought that the other side of the equation deserved mention, as you hadn't referred to the benefits of 2pt fgs. I think your analysis is just great, thanks for putting the work in.

The ability of the bigman to open up the interior with his outside shooting is pretty eye-opening. Some good stats there. The only unfortunate part is that there seems to be an inverse correlation between outside-shooting bigs and interior defensive presence.
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Post#37 » by nate33 » Thu Mar 27, 2008 1:26 am

celticfan42487 wrote:edit: Nevermind I see my response had already been said.

edit again: Nate where did you get the statistic that PF shooting a 3 pointer leads to offensive rebounds 30% of the time? It seems pretty high, but that just means I'd be pissed off at my team 30% of the time :lol:
It's not specifically that a PF shooting a 3-pointer leads to offensive boards. It's just that any shot has a 30% chance of leading to an offensive rebound.

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