What exactly is John Paxson doing?

[RoyceDa59]

He's been lacking a set of a testicles for some time now. Over the past 2 years, Kevin Garnett, Pau Gasol, Elton Brand and Jermaine O'Neal have changed teams while Paxton has stood still. He just doesnt have the balls to make a high risk high reward trade.

[richboy]

Krause traded Brand because he wanted the Curry/Chandler duo and David Falk made hints that he wasn't going to resign.

Not good enough reason to let Brand go.

Gooden got us 14/9 last year, he's not KG, but he's solid, and Tyrus will definitely get more time and will make an impact.

Gooden should be a teams 3rd or 4th big. Your not going to win much with Gooden as your best big man.

Last year the Grizz wanted Deng+Gordon last year. We didn't have an expiring this year.

I believe its been said that the Bulls had a deal in place with Memphis with Chicago if they would sign PJ Brown to a 1 year deal. JR said no because he has no plans on paying the luxury tax.

Our interest, if any ended when we got the #1 pick. It meant we were taking a 19 year old that could be special, and changed the direction of the team. We're not looking to win so trading for a injury prone big that shoots the same as our shooting guard, and makes 20M+ didn't make sense.

Thats the whole point. They keep changing the direction of the franchise. This time last year Bull fans were on this board saying Gordon is equal to Ray Allen. Deng is comparable to Paul Pierce. Hinrich was looking like fringe all-star and about to be Billups. They were one big away from being as good as anyone in the NBA. One bad year they are back in rebuild mode. Why?

There is no reason for the Bulls to be thinking rebuild. Hinrich, Gordon, Deng is just some big men away from doing something. Beasley would have been a nice 4. Then trade TT and Noc for a center. That should be good enough to challenge about anyone.

Instead they take Rose and now everyone else needs to be dumped because all things need to be perfect for Rose. Gordon may be too small to play in same backcourt so they probably trade him. Thanks to his BYC status they likely won't get much in return but more picks. Down the line they probably look to move Hinrch for a real SG. If Rose doesn't work out they probably go on total rebuild again.

There are many teams that don't want Randolph. There's a reason Portland had to settle for Steve Francis' contract and Channing Frye. So what if he puts up 20/10 if he stops the offense, plays absolutely no defense and hurt team chemistry.

Drew Gooden is pretty much poor man version of Zach Randolph. All what you said is what people have said about Gooden for years.

We offered Deng, Chandler and the #2 for KG during the summer of 06. McHale declined that and other deals because he wasn't available at the time. The year he was traded we no longer had the same assets or expirings.

The Bulls had assets. Problem is they wouldn't throw Kirk Hinrich in the deals. Last year everything had to have Ben Wallace in it. No one wanted him.

People are forgetting if we had Aldridge he would contribute as much as Joe Smith did possibly even less. With Skiles it was hard to develop players it was they had to play in his system and is a task master, Skiles would've destroyed Aldridge's confidence and have another Tyson Chandler on our hands. IRC Skiles stared down Aldridge and punked him during dinner. Pax finally got a player coach and a staff that can actually develop players and let them play through their faults. The Bulls also have to consolidate the roster because their is way too many players who need development. As far as Rose go, he went for what he thought would be a future all-star and he became the concensus number 1 pick a few weeks before the draft so I can't blame him.

That's all opinion. Anytime someone passes on a better player in the draft we get the he wouldn't have done thta with us argument. If Aldridge can play with Nate McMillan he can just about play with anyone. As bad as you think Skiles is Nate is probably the toughest couch to play for.

People are forgetting if we had Aldridge he would contribute as much as Joe Smith did possibly even less. With Skiles it was hard to develop players it was they had to play in his system and is a task master, Skiles would've destroyed Aldridge's confidence and have another Tyson Chandler on our hands. IRC Skiles stared down Aldridge and punked him during dinner. Pax finally got a player coach and a staff that can actually develop players and let them play through their faults. The Bulls also have to consolidate the roster because their is way too many players who need development. As far as Rose go, he went for what he thought would be a future all-star and he became the concensus number 1 pick a few weeks before the draft so I can't blame him.

I didn't even get to your post and I was just typing that same thing. Every time a team passes on a player I hear how so and so would not be doing that on this team. Whats funny is Nate is definitely not the coach to say that about. Nate prides himself as a Jerry Sloan type of coach. If Aldridge can play for Nate he can play for just about anyone.

[richboy]

Yeah that pretty much doesn't make any sense. He's improved his mid-range game so that defenders will have to respect his shot - thereby making his faceup game more effective. I like how you did that though, thats neat. The way you were corrected and then tried to turn it around as though the original point you were trying to make was different even though it wasn't. You're tricky, I'm going to have to keep my eye on you.

Tyrus improved some on his mid range jumper but lets not get carried away. Tyrus Thomas shot 35% on jump shots last year. 82 games considers some post moves jump shots. Meaning he probably barely shot 30% on actually jump shots.

[Magilla_Gorilla]

He's been lacking a set of a testicles for some time now. Over the past 2 years, Kevin Garnett, Pau Gasol, Elton Brand and Jermaine O'Neal have changed teams while Paxton has stood still. He just doesnt have the balls to make a high risk high reward trade.

God help us all.


He offered Deng, Chandler and the #2 for KG. What Pax didn't have to offer was a 18 & 10 low post beast like Jefferson. If he did he wouldn't have needed to trade for KG.

The Bulls offered up a combination of players among Deng, Gordon, Thomas, Noah, Nocioni, and Smith. What they didn't have was expiring contracts which Memphis wanted, and the Bulls weren't willing to pay the lux tax for Gasol - thank Reinsdorf, not Paxson.

Elton Brand was a FA, the Bulls didn't have cap room so I'm not sure why you even mentioned him.

Jermaine O'neal is hot garbage because he can't stay healthy.



This is why Bulls fans are responding, because crap like this keeps getting perpetuated.

[Magilla_Gorilla]

Yeah that pretty much doesn't make any sense. He's improved his mid-range game so that defenders will have to respect his shot - thereby making his faceup game more effective. I like how you did that though, thats neat. The way you were corrected and then tried to turn it around as though the original point you were trying to make was different even though it wasn't. You're tricky, I'm going to have to keep my eye on you.

Tyrus improved some on his mid range jumper but lets not get carried away. Tyrus Thomas shot 35% on jump shots last year. 82 games considers some post moves jump shots. Meaning he probably barely shot 30% on actually jump shots.

Actually according to NBA.com, he shot 32% which when you consider he shot 24% his rookie year would constitute a significant improvement. Which is what we have been talking about.

Oh, and Tyrus also improved his FT percentage by 14% - which is pretty significant improvement as well.

Oh, and he also cut his turnover ratio nearly in half - significant.

And nearly doubled his assist ratio - also significant.

[coldfish]

Tyrus improved some on his mid range jumper but lets not get carried away. Tyrus Thomas shot 35% on jump shots last year. 82 games considers some post moves jump shots. Meaning he probably barely shot 30% on actually jump shots.

I thought he had no post moves?

[bullzman23]

But even fans of other teams (like myself) can look at Tyrus Thomas and see a player with limited posting skills.. Has poor footwork on the block, doesn't have a high release, zero go-to moves on the block, and has no comfort zone in terms of shots extending from the FT line..

That's fine. You're right. He is a limited post player. But so what? That's not the end all of the discussion. Being a better post player doesn't mean you're the better player. There was a stat his rookie season...I don't remember the exact numbers, but it was something like the Bulls went 25-4 when Thomas played 20 or more minutes. The guy has a huge positive impact on winning when he gets a chance. He isn't a polished scorer, but he's a true stat stuffer.

Look, Bulls didn't draft for team need, they drafted who they felt was going to be the best big man. As a fan, I'm glad that they have that mentality.

For what it's worth, Paxson asked Skiles if he'd be okay with adding a bigman coach to their staff. Skiles said he didn't want that. Since Skiles left, the Bulls hired a big man coach and Thomas has joined forces with David Thorpe and his staff. According to reports, Thomas is making significant progress.

You can't run anytime of pick and pops with him, you can't hand him the ball in the post and ask him to operate with his back to the basket etc...

That's actually pretty false. Thomas took huge leaps on improving his jump shot, and towards the end of the season was hitting it with regularity. Based on summer league play (which he himself asked if he could be apart of, not Bulls management), it looks like his jumper has gotten even better.

However, he's not a guy worthy of double teaming on the block, or is feared in the post, or is feared leaving open for a jumper...

There's something about Thomas. He has this "it" quality. The Bulls were seen as a "nice guy" group that just played the right way and stayed out of trouble. He's different. He's the only player on the Bulls that plays with anger. Despite all his rawness, the way the entire atmosphere of the game changes when he enters the court is uncanny. He's arrogant. He doesn't care if KG or Duncan is guarding him...he wants to dunk on them. He puts his stamp on the game. He gets in players' head (ask Richard Hamilton), he dunks on people to embarrass them, and he makes some of the most skilled offensive players nervous about coming in the paint. Thomas isn't a scorer (yet), but he has an attitude that is just different than your typical player.

You may have not seen it when you saw your several games after the trade. But that was because Jim Boylan sucked the life out of our team. Take my word for it, Thomas is a special player.

And it was easy to see this when he was at LSU....

And yet, he helped lead his team to victory.

[bullzman23]

At least Hawes has offensive potential. Noah and TT will never work. They both are horrible offensive players.

How much offensive potential does he have? More than Gooden? You're reaching if you have to bring up Hawes. Thus far, Noah is clearly the superior player, and at the very least has much more trade value.

Why anyone in the world would take Noah and TT in the draft and give a big contract to Ben Wallace.

You're timing is off. The Bulls drafted Thomas and then signed Wallace. They had no way of knowing that Wallace would actually leave the Pistons. In retrospect it's easy to blast the signing, but the signing of Wallace was mostly seen as an incredible move and helped make the Bulls seem like contenders.

Its like the Bulls decided that scoring was not a important part of playing basketball.

It's an issue for sure, but what team doesn't have it's issues?

Oh yeah Tyson Chandler better than all 3 of those guys.

Yes, thus far that has sucked.

Oh yeah they got rid of him and JR smith for pretty mch nothing. Yet they complain that Ben Gordon is not big enough.

Who complains? Paxson? You?

I didn't like getting rid of JR Smith either, but he wasn't going to play ahead of Gordon and the development of Sefolosha was seen as a more important priority. Still, the way we handled Smith is one of my biggest criticisms of Paxson.

[Cliff Levingston]

Look, nobody never said he didn't have talent... He just doesn't have the skills to play that position consistently...I saw several Bulls games last year, and most of the games I saw were after the trade games, so I watched with a vested interest to see the Bulls with Drew and Larry...

See, he does have skills. He's got a very good handle for his position, good passing instincts, good form on his shot and could be one of the best defenders (especially help/off the ball) at that position in the league. His problem is that he doesn't know how to apply them in-game effectively due to lack of experience. He's one of those guys who never played AAU ball; he pretty much hit a growth spurt in high school and was able to use his athleticism to make an impact. Most guys in the NBA have been playing since they were elemementary school kids; Tyrus started in high scool.

Everyone knew he was raw coming out of college and would take time to develop, which is why it's stupid to conclude that he'll never be more than average after two years especially considering he's played less minutes in two years than most top 10 rookies from last year's draft played their rookie season. He was a better player than P.J. during the second half of his rookie season but didn't get as much PT as he should have, and he was much better than Ben Wallace last year and compareable to Joe Smith in terms of overall impact and still didn't get playing time. He didn't handle it well and lashed out at the coaching staff, but then again, many other players did as well. That should tell you something about how brutal the coaching was last season and why it was rightly replaced.

Cliff Levingston places a heavy amount of blame on Pax for Tyrus' development though. Pax knew that Tyrus would take some time, and god help the Bulls if he didn't know that Tyrus would only get truly better with actual playing time, yet he still re-signed Nocioni to a long-term deal and brought in Joe Smith to play his position as well. Where's the commitment to your (basically) 2nd overall pick? Maybe if the commitment was there from the beginning Tyrus would be further along in his development.

Cliff Levingston doesn't ever think Tyrus will be a good low post, back to the basket scorer, and that's fine. He'll be able to get a few points there by facing up and drawing fouls. Where he can be lethal is off the pick and roll, where if he keeps improving his jumper (it looked further improved in the summer league), it'll make defenses respect him which will open the lane up for him. From there, he's got a deadly first step and a good enough handle to put the ball on the floor and get to the rim.

His biggest problem is finishing at the rim. He used to go for two handed dunks every time his rookie season, then started to try to do finger rolls and floaters last year. He needs to improve that quite a bit to be truly effective as a scorer, but the rate he draws fouls at is very good and he's improved his free throw shooting a lot as well.

Bottom line is that Tyrus has a lot of good skills for a 4 that could make him deadly on both sides of the floor, he just needs to be able to put them all together. It finally looks like the organization is committed to developing him, so hopefully we'll see him start to learn how and when to use those skills effectively against NBA competition. If he gets adequate and consistent playing time, ICLO you'll see a pretty damn good player by the end of this season.

[richboy]

Yeah that pretty much doesn't make any sense. He's improved his mid-range game so that defenders will have to respect his shot - thereby making his faceup game more effective. I like how you did that though, thats neat. The way you were corrected and then tried to turn it around as though the original point you were trying to make was different even though it wasn't. You're tricky, I'm going to have to keep my eye on you.

Tyrus improved some on his mid range jumper but lets not get carried away. Tyrus Thomas shot 35% on jump shots last year. 82 games considers some post moves jump shots. Meaning he probably barely shot 30% on actually jump shots.

Actually according to NBA.com, he shot 32% which when you consider he shot 24% his rookie year would constitute a significant improvement. Which is what we have been talking about.

Oh, and Tyrus also improved his FT percentage by 14% - which is pretty significant improvement as well.

Oh, and he also cut his turnover ratio nearly in half - significant.

And nearly doubled his assist ratio - also significant.

Seriously are you betting your future on this. TT needs to improve 2 more levels just to become a good NBA offensive player.

How much offensive potential does he have? More than Gooden? You're reaching if you have to bring up Hawes. Thus far, Noah is clearly the superior player, and at the very least has much more trade value.

Noah is older and what he does will come easier. All they ask is rebounding and defense for the most part. Hawes skill set is much higher than Noah overall. With a team that already had Thomas, and Ben Wallace Hawkes ability to shoot and play in the post would have been a nice compliment.

You're timing is off. The Bulls drafted Thomas and then signed Wallace. They had no way of knowing that Wallace would actually leave the Pistons. In retrospect it's easy to blast the signing, but the signing of Wallace was mostly seen as an incredible move and helped make the Bulls seem like contenders.

If you take Thomas why is Ben Wallace even on your radar. In reality I know because they completely overrated TT offensive ability. I don't remember many saying how great the Bulls would be because they had Wallace. Many said they would be improved but questioned if he was much better than Tyson Chandler.

Everyone always complains about Ben Gordon size at SG. Here the Bulls are given a 6'6 version of Ben Gordon and they just pass him to the Nuggets. Its like they just read the reports of JR in New Orleans and said well we don't want that on our team and tossed him to the side. The Bulls attitude with players IMO is pretty ridiculous. I don't think any team in pro sports puts players in the dog house faster than Chicago. It would not shock me this time next year Gordon and Hinrich are playing with new teams.

Whats with the love affair with Thabo. He looks

[bullzman23]

Seriously are you betting your future on this. TT needs to improve 2 more levels just to become a good NBA offensive player.]

Sometimes, there's no winning with people. Thomas took significant step forwards despite being completely mishandled. Everyone including Gordon, Hinrich, and Deng took step backwards on the team. I've seen people mention that Hinrich just had an off year, yet they don't give Thomas the same pass. Take it from all of us Bulls fans, Jim Boylan poisoned the Chicago Bulls. Thomas' progression would have been even greater with a good coach.

Noah is older and what he does will come easier. All they ask is rebounding and defense for the most part. Hawes skill set is much higher than Noah overall. With a team that already had Thomas, and Ben Wallace Hawkes ability to shoot and play in the post would have been a nice compliment.

Let's drop this for now. As of now, Noah is superior. If anything changes, then so be it, but right now Paxson got the better player.

If you take Thomas why is Ben Wallace even on your radar.

Because it legitimized the Bulls. When a possible Hall of Famer, and a guy who was then regarded as the heart of the Pistons, falls into your lap you take it. It's due diligence. The Bulls had capspace and talked to the best free-agent available. Why would you criticize them for that?

Plus, the Bulls came off a promising playoff series against the Heat in which Tyson Chandler failed miserably. This move, not only immediately upgraded their center position, but it seemingly weakened the Pistons and gave the Bulls a guy to help them get past Shaq. It worked wonderfully for the first year, but unfortunately Wallace declined faster than anyone could have predicted.

In reality I know because they completely overrated TT offensive ability.

Oh you know this do you? How do you know this? This is utter bullcrap. No one ever talked about Thomas' offensive ability. Hell, Thomas wasn't even supposed to be in the equation the first year. He was a project. He was drafted as a project. Damn the move if it still looks bad after this season, but my God give it a fair chance first.

I don't remember many saying how great the Bulls would be because they had Wallace. Many said they would be improved but questioned if he was much better than Tyson Chandler.

I'm a Bulls fan. I remember. A ton of people on ESPN predicted that this team would make it to the ECF or Finals before Boston was assembled. Paxson must be doing something right.

The Bulls attitude with players IMO is pretty ridiculous. I don't think any team in pro sports puts players in the dog house faster than Chicago.

I agree. That, and how we handled Tim Thomas pissed me off too.

Whats with the love affair with Thabo. He looks

Looks what? Promising? He's an absolute stud defensively, and made some strides this season. He still has a lot of work to do, but he's an absolute elite rebounder for a guard. In 22 starts this season he averaged 12 points, 6 rebounds, and 3 assists.

On an unrelated note, non-Bulls fans need to realize one thing. There's little from this season that can be used to analyze the Chicago Bulls. 2007-2008 might as well be erased. Boylan ruined everything.

[richboy]

Sometimes, there's no winning with people. Thomas took significant step forwards despite being completely mishandled. Everyone including Gordon, Hinrich, and Deng took step backwards on the team. I've seen people mention that Hinrich just had an off year, yet they don't give Thomas the same pass. Take it from all of us Bulls fans, Jim Boylan poisoned the Chicago Bulls. Thomas' progression would have been even greater with a good coach.

I spend a lot of time on the Bulls board and they are many fans on the verge of calling him a bust. His level of improvement is coming from a level that he couldn't get much worse.

The reality is his level of improvement is debatable. He shot 42% from the year before his TS went below 50%. You could say he took steps backward on the defensive end. All numbers went down and didn't play nearly as well defensively.

Let's drop this for now. As of now, Noah is superior. If anything changes, then so be it, but right now Paxson got the better player.

Noah being better doesn't change the fact that your just duplicating talent. Joakim and Tyrus do not compliment each other at all.You pretty much have 2 players that have close to the same strengths and weaknesses. Even if you don't take Hawes,YOung, Julian Wright, Thornton, Stuckey all would have atleast provided something new on the table. Well perhaps Thaddeus has many similarities to Luol Deng.

Because it legitimized the Bulls. When a possible Hall of Famer, and a guy who was then regarded as the heart of the Pistons, falls into your lap you take it. It's due diligence. The Bulls had capspace and talked to the best free-agent available. Why would you criticize them for that?

Plus, the Bulls came off a promising playoff series against the Heat in which Tyson Chandler failed miserably. This move, not only immediately upgraded their center position, but it seemingly weakened the Pistons and gave the Bulls a guy to help them get past Shaq. It worked wonderfully for the first year, but unfortunately Wallace declined faster than anyone could have predicted.

Wallace was on the decline in Detroit. I don't feel it gave the Bulls any legitimacy as a contender. My issue is not with the signing of Wallace. Just the combination of drafting TT, signing Wallace and pretty much throwing Tyson Chandler away. The Bulls had the resources that they should have a dynasty in place and instead they are running in place or even take steps backward. No reason to draft TT if you even think you might go after Wallace. Even if you fail to get Wallace LA and Tyson would have been a much better frontline.

Oh you know this do you? How do you know this? This is utter bullcrap. No one ever talked about Thomas' offensive ability. Hell, Thomas wasn't even supposed to be in the equation the first year. He was a project. He was drafted as a project. Damn the move if it still looks bad after this season, but my God give it a fair chance first.

No one ever talked about his offense? On draft day all they kept saying was more athlete Shawn Marion. Tyrus was going around saying he was a SF and that he pulled in his perimeter offense for the sake of team basketball. No question his defense and rebounding were put well ahead of his offense. I have no doubt that the Bulls never thought TT was going to be this level of a project on the offensive end. I was on the board then saying TT game was maybe alittle higher than Bo Outlaw. Bulls fans ripped me saying wait till you see his jumper and face up game.

I'm a Bulls fan. I remember. A ton of people on ESPN predicted that this team would make it to the ECF or Finals before Boston was assembled. Paxson must be doing something right.

Thats because people didn't realize the Bulls have always been a pretender. The Bulls more than just about any team took advantage of their schedule. I had a post just on this subject a couple of days ago. IMO the Bulls season had as much to do with teams that they had a lot of success against improving than there actual players getting worse.

Simply put the East is much stronger. If your living on those 49 wins in the past then your likely looking at disappointment. Here some thoughts.

Bulls 4-0 against the Hawks
Bulls 3-0 against the Celtics
Bulls 3-1 against the Pistons
Bulls 4-0 against the Bucks
Bulls 3-1 against Miami
Bulls 3-1 against Washington
Bulls 3-1 against the Knicks
Bulls 3-1 against Indiana
Bulls 2-1 against Phili
Bulls 2-1 against the Cats

not to mention they beat up on some of the West week

4-0 against Portland and NO

They went 34-7 games against 12 teams. Think about that for a minute. They won 34 games of there 49 games against just over 1/3 the league. 15-26 against the rest of the NBA. At that time they were as good if not better than all those teams except the Pistons. I don't see the Bulls repeating these performances against any of these teams. Right now I would say the Bulls would have to work to get 20 wins against those same teams. How are they going to make up those 14 wins. What teams have gotten worse. Not to many. They couldn't do it last year.

Bulls 2-2 against Hawks
Bulls 0-4 against Celtics
Bulls 3-1 against Pistons
Bulls 2-2 against Indiana-
Bulls 3-1 against Milwaukee
Bulls 2-1 against Heat
Bulls 1-2 against Washington
Bulls 1-3 against Phili
Bulls 2-2 against Knicks
Bulls 3-1 against Charlotte

0-4 against Portland and NO

19 wins against those same teams last year. 15 less wins from the previous year. The Bulls record was 16 games worse. You think the Bulls season last year had to do with them or the fact most of those teams they beat on the previous year improved. 19-23 against those teams and I'll be hard pressed seeing them go 3-1 against the Pistons for a third straight year. 3-1 against the Bucks who have added Scott Skiles and RJ so far. Don't see that happening again either. The Bulls played equal to the rest of the league as they had in the previous year. They played much worse against the most improved ball teams

I agree. That, and how we handled Tim Thomas pissed me off too.

I'll tell you right now if TT doesn't have a breakout season he will be in the dog house.

[jax98]

This is the second time I checked this thread hoping to add something of value. But everything I want to say has already been covered by Cliff Levingston.. Many times!

It's painfully obvious that at least half the people bashing Paxson and the Bulls decisions have back up their opinions with absolutely no back-ground knowledge on the Bulls. I mean zero. Nada. Nul.

It's so very important to keep in mind our owner does not want to enter the luxury tax. This has limited our possible moves. We had expiring contracts for well over $13M in 06/07. At that time Memphis wanted both Deng & Gordon for Gasol. We could at that time offer them $13M in expirings (one of those expirings were Nocioni, who they had interest in) as well as a possible future pick. Memphis wouldn't hear of it.

Only problem with doing the deal in 07/08 was that Deng & Gordon were looking for new deals. Hinrich had just received his, and Wallace was making well over $15M. Jerry Reinsdorf did not want to shell out the big future bucks to acquire Pau Gasol. We could easily have worked out a S&T for Michael Sweetney or whoever this past season to lure Memphis. But JR wasn't interested in paying.

Remember who the boss is. Paxson does all the legwork (and quite well, actually) but is often shut down by JR. These conditions are not easy to work under. Especially when you have that many young players. There's no doubt Chicago could have a franchise player right now (looking aside Derrick Rose) but we just didn't want our butts raped.