OJ Mayo: The Next One?

[DelaneyRudd]

My prediction:

2 All-star games consecutively while playing for a non-playoff team
14 year career 7 teams, though one will be for 6 years.

Save this for 14 years and tell me how I did.

[fallentimes]

Google and archive.org will never let you escape your predictions!

[jefe]

God, I still can't believe almost half the people here think he'll be an all star. Statistically, it just isn't likely. Most draft picks are busts/role players/edge starters...even lottery ones.

Statistically, it's almost impossible to become an NBA player.

[ballerblogger]

"What few people know about Mayo is that he scored a 29 on his ACT, a number that placed him in the 95th percentile. The NCAA was among the doubters. It asked Mayo for a handwriting sample. He supplied it, and the NCAA supplied him with an apology."

http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister/sports/college/abox/article_1754225.php

[ballerblogger]

As for Mayo the player, I think the Chicago Bulls are going to be very sorry that they passed up on OJ AND Beasley.

[memgrizzlies]

Well, I think it might take Rose a little bit for him to look like an Allstar. But this for this year and next year, I think they will be pretty sorry they didn't pick up either Beasley or Mayo. But in about 4-5 years, I think they will be very happy with picking Rose.

[TonyMontana]

You are a joke. Watch OJ Mayo play before commenting please.

1) Baron Davis has a ridiculous 1st step but I don't think he far exceeds Mayo in athleticism
Get your facts straight. And if you didnt watch more than 2 USC games you shouldn't even bother to respond.

The only 1st step O.J Mayo has is the one when he was using running out of South Coast Plaza when the clerk realized that the credit card he was using on his shopping spree actually belonged to a nonprofit organization which happened to belong to the National Organization of Sickle Cell Prevention and Awareness Foundation.

But no I dont think he will be an allstar any time soon, specailly when he hasnt even played A game in the NBA.

[Roger Murdock]

I think Mayo will be one of the best sidekicks in the league. I dont see a team with him as the best player ever being elite though. Somewhere around 3-7 allstar games, never a 10 player.

[Chubby Chaser]

Two words.... Steve Francis

[Harry Heinous]

Yes, OJ's primary athletic trait is not his quickness. But again, athleticism is more than just linear and lateral speed, it incorporates vertical leaping ability, strength and coordination as well. You can even mention stamina, too. Physical traits, we're talking about, and the package thereof a player possesses

And all of these other things except for leaping ability, Davis is better at than OJ. You pretty much admit this throughout the rest of your post.

I don't want you to admit OJ could beat Baron in a footrace, that's not relevant to the discussion. The purpose of me mentioning Mayo's on-ball speed was only to note that he happens to move pretty well in transition and that Davis is not significantly beyond Mayo in that category; Baron's quickness is mostly the first-step explosion type, though he moves pretty well laterally when he wants to. Obviously, there's something to be said about his footwork and fluidity in motion while dribbling but that's more trained skill than it is native athletic ability.

Once again - tomato, tomahto - its the only argument you have. I think OJ Mayo is good at shooting because he's coordinated, not because he's good at putting the ball in the net.

I was recalling from memory as much as that; I watched him play, I watched him produce significant offense and I watched Golden State take that series more on the strength of its outside shooting than on the basis of Baron's explosiveness. He was exceedingly dangerous going to the rim, of course, but he was also going against the paper-thin perimeter defense of Jason Terry half the time, and Devin Harris was flat-out too weak to handle him (and not as athletic, Baron was indeed faster than him, more explosive out of triple-threat or a casual dribble).

But you're trying to compare Davis' quickness to that of Chris Paul, which is why I was downplaying that comment and focusing on other areas; Davis is unequivocally not as quick in any aspect of the game as is Paul. Paul's shorter, lighter and faster, period.

So its just a coincidence that in your recalling from memory you mention nothing that couldn't be gleaned from a 30 second glance over the series box scores? Hmm...

Davis dominated, no question, I'm pointing out that it wasn't primarily on the basis of his athleticism (or rather, not founded on the basis of Paul-esque explosion) that made that possible.

Yes, he created lanes and pockets for his teammates, but the brutally efficient outside shooting that his teammates managed definitely opened things up for Davis as much as did his penetration for them, or at least near to it. Discussing this at length overvalues the spacing to the point where it sounds like he was overly reliant on them to open things up for him and I'm not saying that, but not recognizing that the shooting of his teammates made it possible for him to be more effective is just foolish.

Where did you get the idea that I'm not recognizing the shooting of his teammates?

But craft masks athleticism, that's the point. Baron is quick on and after the initial move but he looks quicker because he's usually hung his defender somehow, either on a screen or a hesitation move or something. That changes the reaction time by putting the defender on his heels or maybe even moving in entirely the wrong direction, giving him more time to get past the guy. And again, he's strong, so the partial recoveries that are so often effective against other penetrators don't usually work on him because he'll just muscle past you and jump to the hoop.

You are the type of person who can argue anything if you put your mind to it. I get that.

But the reality is that athleticism's primary perimeter manifestation can be found in the ability to get by your opponent. You claim there are tons of things that make up athleticism above, but call Baron's lightning quick hands and reflexes that allow him to handle the ball so well and explode by his man, "craft". If this isn't an example of hypocritical, fallacious debate, I don't know what is.

He can clearly get up high enough to dunk on anyone, the only remaining question is whether or not he can advance his perimeter attack skills to the point where he has the chance to get to that takeoff point; attacking his dunking ability is fruitless because EVERYONE can see that he's got elite leaping ability. That's a big mistake on your part; the Hilton Armstrong dunk may not be a stunning example of taking someone off-balance, but the elevation he gets on the dunk is certainly spectacular.

Like I said, when he starts doing it on a regular basis, you let me know. He's not an elite-caliber dunker and likely never will be. He'll never hold a torch to Baron Davis and you know it.

So pair it down to Francis, Paul, Conley and Ford then, guys who were clearly point guards. Those guys are all much quicker than Baron and have comparable or superior leaping ability. Francis is the only one with comparable physical stature of course, so he (as you note) is the most applicable.

You can even add Raymond Felton into the discussion because, while short, he has a broad frame and is incredibly quick.

Raymond Felton never gets to the basket. Period. He isn't in the discussion. He's in the discussion of top track athletes that happen to get to the basket. You can pretty much make the same case for Conley at this stage. In terms of applicable athleticism, he's not in Davis' league. Track athlete, sure. Basketball athlete? You're joking...actually you are really, really stubborn and probably think I'll eventually go away. That's not going to happen.

This is a meaningless comment because all of the players I mentioned have athletic talents that cause that issue; their quickness makes it nigh-impossible to stay in front of them and they have the leaping ability to attack the rim as well. Felton's inefficiency is more a product of his bad decision-making and weak perimeter jumper, but his athletic talents allow him to get to pretty much whatever spot he wants. I'd agree that Baron is a more imposing physical package because of his height, I'm merely saying Ray is a guy in the discussion. Even Nate Robinson is in the discussion; he's very quick and an incredible leaper with good handles. He's really short though, so obviously that limits his physical capacity (thought height is not an athletic trait). There are tons of guys who were quicker (Jason Terry, Kenny Anderson, etc, etc), so we'll leave those guys alone for now because we've both agreed that Baron isn't the quickest at his position, just the quickest at his size.

What's meaningless about meaningful athleticism? Only in some fantasy world where you get to change the rules as you go along is applied athleticism meaningless..

"Most athletic point guard of all-time" is still too hasty because there isn't anything to separate Davis from Francis... except that Francis was a higher leaper while remaining comparably quick and being the same height (Davis is stronger, of course).

I didn't say Baron Davis was the most athletic PG of all time.

And Davis is still a much more effective penetrator that Francis. But this is because of that athleticism that you've decided to call craft so you can continue this argument. Got it...

And again, it all depends on how you value the athleticism present; there is a long list of players at the 1 who could blow past Davis without even blinking simply because they are that much faster than him; how do you weight the value of his strength, height and the width of his shoulders against the elite speed he does not possess compared to a guy like Ford? Does that gap not make up, at least in part, for the advantages Davis has in other categories?

Does TJ Ford apply his athleticism as well as Davis on the basketball court? If you even have to think about this question, you're not worth discussing the issue with...

And you are still assuming that beating someone off the dribble is a sign of athletic ability and not talent as well. Davis' most important traits in that regard are his ability to shoot from outside, his handle, his usage of screens and his build rather than his quickness.

Up above when you are defending Mayo, you mention "coordination" and "strength" as parts of athleticism. But somehow, now they aren't. Did you have a life-changing experience before getting to this part of the post? And no, telling me about the difference between "coordination" and "handle", and "strength" and "build", isn't going to fly.

That would imply that I'm saying he's unathletic, ignoring the athletic traits that he does possess; YOU, however, are undervaluing other athletic traits just as you accuse me of doing in the above statement.

I'm undervaluing athletic traits that don't provide value on a basketball court. Crazy, I know..

You are 100% correct. I really can't believe it's trying to be argued that OJ Mayo is a better athlete than Baron Davis. That's ludicrous.