Are there any centers today who wouldn't get beaten into submission by Ben Wallace?

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Re: Are there any centers today who wouldn't get beaten into submission by Ben Wallace? 

Post#122 » by mattao313 » Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:56 am

Mylie10 wrote:
mattao313 wrote:
Agenda42 wrote:I don't think any current center beats Wallace down low. The problem here is that strength as a low post defender is becoming unimportant as offenses have found more efficient ways to attack.

Wallace would have no hope of matching Draymond Green's game impact. He'd struggle to defend him in space and it's not reasonable to ask Wallace to beat anyone offensively.

Why? Wallace was extremely mobile because of his athleticism and SF size he'd destroy Draymond who is a homeless mans Ben Wallace on defense.


I smell a huge over rate of Wallace and a huge under rate of Draymond.

Homeless man's Ben Wallace on defense? Draymond can guard 1-5......Wallace could not. Wallace however is one of the best rebounders I've seen. Draymond could run an offense from the top, Wallace was inept on the offensive end.

Wallace is one of the best defensive players of all time he could guard anyone on the court.

Ben Wallace>>> Draymond Green
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Re: Are there any centers today who wouldn't get beaten into submission by Ben Wallace? 

Post#123 » by dhsilv2 » Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:05 pm

Kabookalu wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
Kabookalu wrote:
You know, I gave you the benefit of the doubt but I always suspected you've never watched the players in question play before, your assessment of them is so horribly off, and now you come up with this crap when given the chance to support your argument in a cordial manner.


You're disagreement is in what we mean by great defense or good defense. Everything for example that you said about prince is correct. He was still a very good to great defender.

Hamilton being 6'7 left me rather confused enough. Though with height whatever. He was very fast (close out speed) but you're right was not ideal against quicker players off the dribble, lateral quickness was not a strength nor a weakness for him. He however was a marathon runner of the league and just never stopped which made him again an above average defender as long as you kept him out of the post against stronger players.

But again you responded by nitpicking and basically saying because they weren't the elite you were crapping on them. So yeah their elbows are too pointy.


Hamilton.was.not.fast. That's not nitpicking, it's correcting something that isn't true. He wasn't very fast in anything, not in closeout speed, not in lateral quickness, not in anything relative to what "fast" is defined on the NBA level. His end to end speed was average at best. Him being a marathon runner has nothing to do with whether or not he's fast. Like I said you're just coming off across as someone who's only watched 2 minutes of YouTube highlights of the Pistons.

It doesn't matter what our definitions of "great" here is. You're saying that Ben Wallace is overrated and that everyone around him is great, and then admitting that the Pistons are an all time great team defensively. My arguing in here is how foolish that is to say that Prince and Billups are anymore responsible for that juggernaut of a defense than they really are and diminishing Ben's contribution to it. Billups wasn't even the best point guard defender on his own team back in 2004, that belonged to Lindsey Hunter who was his generation's Patrick Beverly.


Believe what you will. Wallace is an all time great defender and overrated by many around here. And everyone knows who freaking lindey hunter is! Though odd you bring up 04 when he missed nearly the whole year and played 11 minutes a game in the playoffs.
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Re: Are there any centers today who wouldn't get beaten into submission by Ben Wallace? 

Post#124 » by dhsilv2 » Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:32 pm

BDM22 wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
Maybe we don't agree on the term great?

Prince was a top 10 wing defender in the league. I think top 10 is pretty great. Yeah of course he was great because of his long arms. he did struggle against say Lebron, but so what? Billups was slow, but he was big and strong enough to rotate to shooting guards and Hamilton who I left off, was fast enough to guard points.

3 legit all nba level defender (wallaces and prince) along with a better than average defender in billups and not a great but not a bad guy in hamilton. That's an all time great team defensively.



This is ignoring the fact that none of these guys were on the Pistons when Ben won his first DPOY, and led this horrific group to a 50 win season....

Victor Alexander
Chucky Atkins
Dana Barros
Jon Barry
Brian Cardinal
Michael Curry
Damon Jones
Mikki Moore
Zeljko Rebraca
Clifford Robinson
Jerry Stackhouse
Ratko Varda
Ben Wallace
Rodney White
Corliss Williamson

Also, neither Rip nor Chauncey had reputations of being even decent defensive guys until they played with Ben. Tayshaun came into the league with big question marks defensively because of his lack of foot speed and strength. None of them looked nearly as good once Ben left... Sheed was the only main guy with a good reputation on that end.



Let me take a step back. I pointed out Hamilton was a guy they could use against points and shooting guards. He was a passable defender, nothing more. The other poster started attacking me description of him being fast which was used to imply fast enough and we went off the the races. By no means do I think Hamilton is or was more than at best an average defender. Chauncey is interesting here. The thing with him is that he as a player looked like a draft bust before going to Detroit. It hardly seems crazy to think he just got better on both ends once he found a role, fit, coach for him? Now was en an elite defender? Not at all, but at his peak I think he absolutely was a value add guy (as point guards go).

Now to your point about Wallace and 02. I didn't say the guy was anything short of a great defender. The overrated part comes from some of his later career DPOY awards along with the narrative that came from their titles.

As for Prince he was declining by 30 as a player.
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Re: Are there any centers today who wouldn't get beaten into submission by Ben Wallace? 

Post#125 » by Kabookalu » Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:43 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:Believe what you will. Wallace is an all time great defender and overrated by many around here. And everyone knows who freaking lindey hunter is! Though odd you bring up 04 when he missed nearly the whole year and played 11 minutes a game in the playoffs.


He was still the best defensive point guard on his team, that doesn't change anything lol. He was always the better defensive player throughout their careers, he was their best defensive point guard in the playoffs too. Now that I think about it, Billups wasn't even the second best defensive point guard on his team, that belonged to Mike James who before being known as the epitome of a one hit wonder was actually a pesky and tough in your face defender.
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Re: Are there any centers today who wouldn't get beaten into submission by Ben Wallace? 

Post#126 » by dhsilv2 » Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:01 pm

Kabookalu wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:Believe what you will. Wallace is an all time great defender and overrated by many around here. And everyone knows who freaking lindey hunter is! Though odd you bring up 04 when he missed nearly the whole year and played 11 minutes a game in the playoffs.


He was still the best defensive point guard on his team, that doesn't change anything lol. He was always the better defensive player throughout their careers, he was their best defensive point guard in the playoffs too. Now that I think about it, Billups wasn't even the second best defensive point guard on his team, that belonged to Mike James who before being known as the epitome of a one hit wonder was actually a pesky and tough in your face defender.


I'm fine with hunter being the better point guard defender, doesn't really matter with the discussion either way. Though when I think of hunter I think of him with Grant Hill, not ben wallace. I can't remember what value he added for them in the 04 run.
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Re: Are there any centers today who wouldn't get beaten into submission by Ben Wallace? 

Post#127 » by Kabookalu » Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:02 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
Kabookalu wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:Believe what you will. Wallace is an all time great defender and overrated by many around here. And everyone knows who freaking lindey hunter is! Though odd you bring up 04 when he missed nearly the whole year and played 11 minutes a game in the playoffs.


He was still the best defensive point guard on his team, that doesn't change anything lol. He was always the better defensive player throughout their careers, he was their best defensive point guard in the playoffs too. Now that I think about it, Billups wasn't even the second best defensive point guard on his team, that belonged to Mike James who before being known as the epitome of a one hit wonder was actually a pesky and tough in your face defender.


I'm fine with hunter being the better point guard defender, doesn't really matter with the discussion either way. Though when I think of hunter I think of him with Grant Hill, not ben wallace. I can't remember what value he added for them in the 04 run.


He was their best defender at the point guard position, that's the value he added.
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Re: Are there any centers today who wouldn't get beaten into submission by Ben Wallace? 

Post#128 » by dhsilv2 » Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:13 pm

Kabookalu wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
Kabookalu wrote:
He was still the best defensive point guard on his team, that doesn't change anything lol. He was always the better defensive player throughout their careers, he was their best defensive point guard in the playoffs too. Now that I think about it, Billups wasn't even the second best defensive point guard on his team, that belonged to Mike James who before being known as the epitome of a one hit wonder was actually a pesky and tough in your face defender.


I'm fine with hunter being the better point guard defender, doesn't really matter with the discussion either way. Though when I think of hunter I think of him with Grant Hill, not ben wallace. I can't remember what value he added for them in the 04 run.


He was their best defender at the point guard position, that's the value he added.


in 11 minutes a game...
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Re: Are there any centers today who wouldn't get beaten into submission by Ben Wallace? 

Post#129 » by tong po » Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:14 pm

Sheed would be a better matchup defensively against a true center than Wallace. He was the superior interior man defender.

Wallace played defense more like a mini-Camby. He was not some Mutombo or Mourning down low that people seem to be romanticizing him as.
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Re: Are there any centers today who wouldn't get beaten into submission by Ben Wallace? 

Post#130 » by Kabookalu » Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:18 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
Kabookalu wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
I'm fine with hunter being the better point guard defender, doesn't really matter with the discussion either way. Though when I think of hunter I think of him with Grant Hill, not ben wallace. I can't remember what value he added for them in the 04 run.


He was their best defender at the point guard position, that's the value he added.


in 11 minutes a game...


:roll: he was extremely valuable in the time he played, especially against the Lakers in the finals where he made it hell for their guards to do anything.
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Re: Are there any centers today who wouldn't get beaten into submission by Ben Wallace? 

Post#131 » by Johnny Firpo » Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:47 pm

Jokic wouldn't "beat him up", well, at least not literally. He'd just put up 25/10/5 on his behind, on 60%TS. What Jokic does, you can't really defend that, Wallace would have a much better chance against someone like Towns, who actually uses his body as a weapon. Jokic would just flip shot over the afro of Wallace with those ridiculous one handed water polo shots, or just shoot the three or mid range, like he does. There is nothing Wallace can do to disrupt that. Well, other than fouling him, but that would kind of defeat the purpose.
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Re: Are there any centers today who wouldn't get beaten into submission by Ben Wallace? 

Post#132 » by CodyB_ » Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:53 pm

Retroactive Ben Wallace Circlejerking... eek

The guy played in probably the worst offensive era of all time. This was during the Point Guard and Big Man drought. Literally of the best players in the league, save for Shaq and Jason Kidd were stacked in the swingman and powerforward position. The game really **** sucked at this point in terms of fluidity and it was often a grindfest.

That Detroit Team was GREAT. It was the epitome of grind-it-out defensive basketball and there was very little emphasis on offence at all. It was basically Chauncey Billups isos and Rip Hamilton running off screens. Ben Wallace didn't have any offensive commitment at all. He barely touched the ball and when he did it was a quick hand off or an open dunk. There's no doubt he was one of the most intriguing players in the history of the sport, but he was a product of his team. He was an all time great defender on the Detroit teams but after he left for Chicago and Cleveland he was far less effective.

The man inspired the scheme, but the scheme made the man. Detroit did for Ben Wallace what the Spurs did for Tony Parker. Both are great players that played for great organisations that accentuated their strengths and hid their weaknesses.

I cringe every time he is compared to Draymond Green. Defensively Ben Wallace might have an edge but it's not as significant as people let on and offensively Draymond's on another planet.
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Re: Are there any centers today who wouldn't get beaten into submission by Ben Wallace? 

Post#133 » by afarmenian » Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:06 pm

CodyB_ wrote: He was an all time great defender on the Detroit teams but after he left for Chicago and Cleveland he was far less effective.
.


surprising since so many players peak in their mid 30s
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Re: Are there any centers today who wouldn't get beaten into submission by Ben Wallace? 

Post#134 » by CodyB_ » Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:16 pm

afarmenian wrote:
CodyB_ wrote: He was an all time great defender on the Detroit teams but after he left for Chicago and Cleveland he was far less effective.
.


surprising since so many players peak in their mid 30s


Age absolutely comes into it, but without the organisation and emphasis on defence that Detroit had Ben Wallace looked like a completely different player. He amassed rebounds, blocks and steals like he always had but something was missing. His offensive liabilities were all the more apparent, especially around the 2009/2010 time the grind it out era came to a fairly abrupt end after the abolition of hand checking.
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Re: Are there any centers today who wouldn't get beaten into submission by Ben Wallace? 

Post#135 » by afarmenian » Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:42 pm

CodyB_ wrote:
afarmenian wrote:
CodyB_ wrote: He was an all time great defender on the Detroit teams but after he left for Chicago and Cleveland he was far less effective.
.


surprising since so many players peak in their mid 30s


Age absolutely comes into it, but without the organisation and emphasis on defence that Detroit had Ben Wallace looked like a completely different player. He amassed rebounds, blocks and steals like he always had but something was missing. His offensive liabilities were all the more apparent, especially around the 2009/2010 time the grind it out era came to a fairly abrupt end after the abolition of hand checking.


Well all I can say is I watched Ben Wallace with the Cavs and compared to Ben Wallace with the Pistons he looked a step in a half slower and was still a very good Defender for us. This is just my opinion but I think if the Cavs had prime Ben Wallace they could have won a championship in one of those two years that he was on the team

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