Wade Finals PER = 40.25, rest of team = 44.74

[markjay]

Kobe averaged 44 points against the 06 mavs in the reg season!

How do I explain this?

Say you've got a player who averages 35 PPG. In any given group of 3 games, you expect him to score 35 PPG. If in one of those 3 games instead he scores 60, with the other two being roughly average games, then you would expect that the average over 3 games would be just about 44 points per game.

This is not at all the same as a player consistently putting up 44 points against an opponent, and certainly not the same as doing it in the playoffs.

So now you are taking into account standard deviations when calculating players' scoring? That's interesting, because I've never seen you or anybody else do that before. It's nice to see how you pull new tricks out of your hat to try to denigrate Kobe.

And, as for the differences between the regular season and the playoffs, did Dallas become a better defensive team in the playoffs? Do star players tend to play fewer minutes in the playoffs?

[markjay]

Averaging 35.4 PPG on adequate but not impressive efficiency is not at all the same as regularly scoring 60 PPG. Credit him for scoring a lot, but implying that he'd blaze through any team in a series at the 40+ level is unreasonable.

Kobe didn't embarrass the league. I mean, AI scored 33, LeBron scored 31. Kobe wasn't that much of an outlier and his team barely won more than it lost. None of this means I find it ridiculous if you think Kobe was the best player that year, but just don't get carried away with ideas that he would do better in all situations than a player in a different mold like Wade.

Kobe averaged 44 points against the 06 mavs in the reg season!

Ya'know how Kobe put 81 on the Raptors that season? In the other game against them he dropped 11 on them...total...92 divided by 2 = 46 ppg....aka 1 big game skewing the entire results aka he almost assuredly wouldn't avg 44 in a 7 game series against anyone.

Superstars have huge games sometimes, that doesn't mean its their average, no matter who its against.

So, let me see what you are saying. Averaging 44 per game with a couple of monster games is less impressive than averaging 44 per game without those monster games? I've never heard that argument before (well, before someone else made it upthread.) Usually, in fact, it's the opposite--we celebrate players' scoring averages AND their high scoring games, instead of pitting one against the other.

[schematics]

Yes, Wade has been a better finals performer than Kobe, but the sample sizes are not really comparable. Wade has had two finals series--both against Dallas teams that weren't particularly strong defensively at SG. Kobe has had seven final series, including against defensive powerhouses such as Boston, Detroit, etc.

So yes, so far Wade has been one of the top finals performers of all time. After Wade completes his 7th final series, let's look at the numbers again.

What if he for some reason does not get back to the Finals, then what?

[Flynt Flossy]

It's always funny to me when people drop known names as if they were good players at the time...and then use a double standard. What I mean is this:

People argue that Duncan in '03 won with a lot of help (and then name Ginobili Parker and Robinson, as if they were anywhere near their prime). People argue that Wade won with lots of help by naming Zo/Shaq...when they're nowhere near their prime.

But when you use the same argument for the '04 Lakers....guess what argument you hear? "They were nowhere near their primes!! :("

It's just funny to me.

[Doctor MJ]

So now you are taking into account standard deviations when calculating players' scoring? That's interesting, because I've never seen you or anybody else do that before. It's nice to see how you pull new tricks out of your hat to try to denigrate Kobe.

And, as for the differences between the regular season and the playoffs, did Dallas become a better defensive team in the playoffs? Do star playoffs tend to play fewer minutes in the playoffs?

Just using common sense dude, and I'll note that you're bringing the statistical term in not me. Your term is not inaccurate, but it is misleading in terms of my intentions. All I'm saying is that one big game can seriously skew averages when you're talking about a 3 game average. I don't understand how any objective would even debate me on that.

Re: playoffs. Generally teams do play tougher defense in the playoffs actually, but looking at my statement before I think I wasn't clear. It's a heck of a lot tougher turn burn the same team the same way over and over again over a series where they adjust every game than it is to have a big game against them among many other games against other teams.

[Doctor MJ]

So, let me see what you are saying. Averaging 44 per game with a couple of monster games is less impressive than averaging 44 per game without those monster games? I've never heard that argument before (well, before someone else made it upthread.) Usually, in fact, it's the opposite--we celebrate players' scoring averages AND their high scoring games, instead of pitting one against the other.

Actually, you've got a point that people do tend to celebrate them for their biggest games.

However, if you're preparing for a player, you're what you're concerned about is what's likely to happen, not what could conceivably happen. How often have you heard someone say "We'll live with him making shots like those"? It's because stars tend to go through streaks where they make exceptionally difficult shots, but it typically doesn't last. Far more disconcerting is when a player is able to get easy shots over and over again.

[sweet daddy]

Just an incredible performance so far. I mean, everybody is talking about Dirk, and I'm happy for that, but Wade has played brilliantly. I am still shocked that we are up 3-2 ... wth?

[Day in the Life]

Finals PER of 40.25....and they're down 3-2 against the same team from 06. And playing with 2 number one options, a more than capable bench with Haslem and Chalmers stepping up and leading a team that threw the series away blowing a 15 point lead with 5 minutes left in game 2 is "incredible."

I can't wait for the series to end. Lol.

[orangeparka]

Lmao. Shaq was hardly a factor and Zo was a decent backup at best. Wade took a past prime team of White Chocolate and Antoine Walker to a championship.

[Ballamy]

Defenses Kobe & Wade have faced since 2001....

Kobe:
2001 76ers - 98.9 DRtg (#5)
2002 Nets - 99.5 DRtg (#1)
2004 Pistons - 94.1 DRtg (#2)
2008 Celtics - 98.9 (#1)
2009 Magic - 101.9 DRtg (#1)
2010 Celtics - 103.8 DRtg (#5)

Wade:
2006 Mavs - 105.0 DRtg (#12)
2011 Mavs - 105.0 DRtg (#7)

So basically, Kobe has had to face Top 5 defenses every year(including three #1 defenses), and all have been under 103.8 DRtg. In fact, 4 of them were sub 100 DRtg.. While Wade has never faced a Top 5 defense, nor a sub 105 DRtg defense.

Hard to compare the two when they have played under very different circumstances.

This is true if we look at the teams Wade has played in the Finals, but failing to acknowledge the great defenses Wade has torched is dangerously close to implying that Wade might not even manage the same stats Kobe did under similar circumstances, which runs contrary to the data we have.

Defenses Dwyane Wade has faced and his series stats against them:
1. 2004 Pacers - 97.2 (#3) (Pacers in 6)
21PPG (56.7TS%) 5.7APG 4RPG 1.3SPG .5BPG 4.5TOPG
2. 2007 Bulls - 99.6 (#1) (Bulls in 4)
23.5PPG (47.9TS%) 6.3APG 4.8RPG 1.3SPG .5BPG 5.8TOPG
3. 2011 Celtics - 100.3 (#2) (Heat in 5)
30.2PPG (61.6TS%) 4.8APG 6.8RPG 2SPG .6BPG 3.0TOPG
4. 2011 Bulls - 100.3 (#1) (Heat in 5)
18.8PPG (49.8TS%) 2.2APG 6.4RPG 1.6SPG 1.2BPG 4TOPG
5. 2005 Pistons - 101.2 (#3) (Pistons in 7)
25.8PPG (51.9TS%) 4.3APG 4.5RPG 1.7SPG 1BPG 2.8TOPG
6. 2006 Nets - 102.4 (#3) (Heat in 5)
27.6PPG (60TS%) 6.6APG 6RPG 2.4SPG .6BPG 3.6TOPG
7. 2004 Hornets - 102.4 (#12) (Heat in 7)
15.4PPG (48.7TS%) 5.6APG 4RPG 1.3SPG .1BPG 3.9TOPG
8. 2005 Nets - 103.1 (#6) (Heat in 4)
26.3PPG (58.4TS%) 8.8APG 6.3RPG 1.8SPG 1BPG 5TOPG
9. 2006 Pistons - 103.1 (#5) (Heat in 6)
26.7PPG (68.4TS%) 5.5APG 5.2RPG 1.8SPG 1.5BPG 4.7TOPG
10. 2006 Bulls - 103.4 (#7) (Heat in 6)
24.7PPG (54TS%) 7.2APG 4.5RPG 2SPG 1.3BPG 3.7TOPG
11. 2010 Celtics - 103.8 (#5) (Celtics in 5)
33.2PPG (65TS%) 6.8APG 5.6RPG 1.6SPG 1.6BPG 5.2TOPG
12. 2006 Mavericks - 105.0 (#12) (Heat in 6)
34.7PPG (57.2TS%) 7.8RPG 3.8APG 2.7SPG 1BPG 3.7TOPG
13. 2011 76ers - 105.0 (#8) (Heat in 5)
22.2PPG (52.7TS%) 5.2APG 8.4RPG 1.4SPG 2BPG 2.8TOPG
14. 2011 Mavericks - 105.0 (#7) (Mavericks lead 3-2)
28.4PPG (64.3TS%) 5APG 6.8RPG 1.6SPG 1.4BPG 2TOPG
15. 2005 Wizards - 107.5 (#20) (Heat in 4)
31PPG (60.1TS%) 8APG 7RPG 1.3SPG 1.5BPG 6.3TOPG
16. 2009 Hawks - 107.6 (#12) (Hawks in 7)
29.1PPG (56.5TS%) 5.3APG 5RPG .9SPG 1.6BPG 3.6TOPG

It should be no surprise that Wade has faced weaker defenses in the Finals than Kobe. Aside from the fact that 4 of Kobe's 7 finals appearances came in the non-handchecking era (in the 5 years before 2005, the average league defensive rating hovered around 103, but since then, it has hovered around 107), you would be wise to note that Wade plays in the East, and as it would turn out, when a team in the Eastern Conference reaches the finals, it necessarily plays a team from the Western Conference, and aside from the Spurs and to a degree the Rockets, there have not been any consistently great defensive teams out West. The crux of your argument punishes the player for his conference, which should be almost entirely irrelevant to individual success. The Celtics, Pistons, and Nets teams that Wade has faced and dominated were better defensively than essentially everyone Kobe has faced out West in the playoffs during the non-handchecking era. Seriously, Wade has put up TS%'s that Kobe can only dream of, against outstanding defensive teams. Perhaps that's why Kobe's fizzled out by the Finals these past few years - because he hasn't had to compete against an Eastern Conference defense on his road to the Finals. Now granted, Wade has had issues with the Bulls over the years, not just due to definite injury (2007) and possible injury (2011), but also because he's just never played well in Chicago, regular season or playoffs. He even had some issues with the 2005 Pistons after he hurt his rib in Game 5. But he's torched basically every other defensive stalwart he's faced, and there's no reason to believe that he wouldn't have done exactly that, even if you had changed the name of the "Eastern Conference Finals" to the "NBA Finals".

great post

Wade is a true beast. And every time he and Kobe had similar supporting casts in their careers, Wade totally outperformed him. All 4 times.

In Kobe's career he's had the benefit of having championship caliber rosters for 85% of his career. He is a very overrated player in my mind, and there's many reasons for it. Let's also not forget that the Lakers breezed in the Western playoffs in recent years because western teams didn't have any great front courts. The Lakers front court of Bynum.Gasol.Odom was just too much for any western team to handle. All those bigs can rebound, are very versatile, all can pass (a very important dimension that is very hard for teams that don't have good front courts to contend with, etc)

Now this year Dallas adds Tyson Chandler to Haywood, to go along with dirk up front... VOiLA ! a very good front court. The Lakers faced them and got swept. Kobe got exposed for what he is after he couldn't rely on a dominant front court anymore to cover up for all his mistakes and sub par play.,

The Lakers would have lost to OKC as well after they added Perkins and Mohammad to go with ibaka upfront. And i am certain that the Celtics would have won the title last year if Perkins didn't get injured when they were up 3-2. As soon as Perk got hurt the Lakers front court took over and boston had very little to no chance. Kobe = under 30% shooter in the 4th quarters in his last 2 finals.

IMO Kobe Bryant is the most overrated player in NBA history.

[qm22]

I'm surprised Wade has a better PER now than 06 since he is getting to the line much less and how good he was overall. I expect him to keep up this level of play. It will be a ridiculous accomplishment if the Heat end up winning.

[Chosen01]

Yea I can imagine he gets more calls in game 6, his PER will escalate.

[brownsmith89]

kobe bryant is a better 3-pt and ft shooter and is taller.

but it looks like wade has a stronger upper body, so he can take contact better in the paint?

it also seems that wade is less selfish, while kobe has a "me-first" attitude.

[Gongxi]

If the Heat win, Kobe Vs Wade becomes an argument. Thats two rings that he won on his own as the best player on the team just like Kobe. And if the Heat win multiple titles as expected its going to be close. I mean Ive always felt like those two have been very very close. But even Kobe hasnt dominated in the finals like this.

No! Judging basketball players is not done by counting up how many rings and Finals MVPs or some **** they have. If you think Kobe and Wade are close, then it doesn't matter if the Heat win or not. If you think Kobe and Wade aren't close, it also doesn't matter if the Heat win or not.

JUDGE THEM BASED UPON HOW THEY PLAY BASKETBALL!

[rewill17]

Yea I can imagine he gets more calls in game 6, his PER will escalate.

Srry to OT, but why is the bulls logo upside down in your sig in that fourth win?

[Catch]

Kobe averaged 44 points against the 06 mavs in the reg season!

How do I explain this?

Say you've got a player who averages 35 PPG. In any given group of 3 games, you expect him to score 35 PPG. If in one of those 3 games instead he scores 60, with the other two being roughly average games, then you would expect that the average over 3 games would be just about 44 points per game.

This is not at all the same as a player consistently putting up 44 points against an opponent, and certainly not the same as doing it in the playoffs.

So now you are taking into account standard deviations when calculating players' scoring? That's interesting, because I've never seen you or anybody else do that before. It's nice to see how you pull new tricks out of your hat to try to denigrate Kobe.

And, as for the differences between the regular season and the playoffs, did Dallas become a better defensive team in the playoffs? Do star players tend to play fewer minutes in the playoffs?

seriously. dude is a big-time kobe hater. what a joke.

[JrueTheFuture]

Whose guarding Wade again? Oh yeah, Jason "Gramps" Kidd. How did Wade perform against the likes of Bogans and Brewer? Not so well. I'll agree Wade is a great player, and that he is near Kobe Bryant's level, but to say he's a better finals performer then Bryant, let alone a better player because of a small sample of 5 games is absurd imo.

[Brooklyn_34]

Whose guarding Wade again? Oh yeah, Jason "Gramps" Kidd. How did Wade perform against the likes of Bogans and Brewer? Not so well. I'll agree Wade is a great player, and that he is near Kobe Bryant's level, but to say he's a better finals performer then Bryant, let alone a better player because of a small sample of 5 games is absurd imo.

Mr. Wade has had a very favorable MATCHUP advantage.

Individual defense and team defense have an interesting and unique relationship with one another.
There are guys who are not good individual defenders, but make good team defenders. There are guys who are pretty good individual defenders but not so great team defenders, although their individual defense translates positively to the team's defense.

Dallas has been weak at the SG position. We have been weak in our perimeter defense. That has been our Achilles heel.

It is not surprising Mr. Wade has taken advantage of that.

[TheAnkh]

Yes. The same "Gramps" that locked up Kobe and Westbrook in previous rounds and that Wade is currently having his way with is Wade exploiting a matchup that a player who is supposedly better than him could not. That makes a ton of sense. Thanks GB, just when I thought you guys couldn't be more blatant with your bias and skewing of facts to support the obvious anti-Heat agenda prevalent here, you guys show me there is much more where that came from.

[Chosen01]

Yes. The same "Gramps" that locked up Kobe and Westbrook in previous rounds and that Wade is currently having his way with is Wade exploiting a matchup that a player who is supposedly better than him could not. That makes a ton of sense. Thanks GB, just when I thought you guys couldn't be more blatant with your bias and skewing of facts to support the obvious anti-Heat agenda prevalent here, you guys show me there is much more where that came from.

This.