Should Lin come off the bench?

[Sasaki]

LOL what a joke. Get off Lin's cock for a second and see it for what it is.... if its best for the team for Lin to come off the bench then do it.

Yeah yeah we all know the Asian culture is to not bring shame on your family. Poor Lin is going to go home and cop a beating by his dad because he comes off the bench and because it shames all Asians that he is not a starter.

What a joke. Lin doesn't deserve to be starting on that team. He is average at best and usually below average.

Poor attempt of being funny.

Actually no I was being serious. I am sick of "fans" who only support a team because 1 player is the same race as them... and then have a cry when people don't think their hero is as good as they do.

Lin is average and overrated and no way in hell should be starting in this league. Let's be honest the only reason he is even on Houston's roster is because he is the token Asian recruited to keep all of the bandwagon Asian fans that originally came across for Yao Ming.

He is ****... and they should just deal with it... without crying and moaning about him not being a starter.

So, is Lin average, or is he ****? At least be try to be consistent within your own post, okay?

[Manitoba]

If Beverley can't even run the second unit, never mind the first, the solution is not to punish Lin for being better. Forcing Lin to the bench, when he totally doesn't deserve to be there, is the wrong move. No, if Beverley can't do the job, the solution is to dump him. The latter is what will really help the team.

Beverly can't, but Harden can.

As I said above, the Rockets have a better option than to give Beverley a promotion for being worse than Lin: they can replace Beverley with a better backup PG.

[Mr. E]

Of course being demoted from starter to bench warmer is punishment, and it will be seen as such by 99.99% of the basketball world. The exceptions are very rare.

The Rockets have a better option than to give Beverley a promotion for being worse than Lin: they can replace Beverley with a better backup PG.

I have indeed seen Beverley's fumbling attempts at running Houston's second unit, and *that* is why the Rockets will be better off with a more competent backup PG.

I realize that there is absolutely no way that you'll back off of your position that using Lin as a Sixth Man type of player is a demotion. I disagree with that, but believe whatever you will.

If the Rockets choose to utilize Lin in a Ginobli-type role then it will not be to "punish" him while "promoting" Beverley. It will be an attempt to best utilize Houston's players to the maximum benefit of the team and their success. Despite what is being argued here, this is not about Lin and Beverley - it is about getting the best use out of Houston's top two playmakers - Harden & Lin. Getting the most out of those two guys for 48 minutes a night is the primary goal with these lineup experiments.

Ultimately I believe that Lin is better as a starter (if that will get him the most time on the court with Dwight, Parsons & Harden); however, if it is determined that is not the case then I fully support his use off of the bench. I am in favor of whatever is in the best interests of the Houston Rockets and their success.

I am not in favor of getting rid of useful players over perceived slights.

[Manitoba]

I disagree with the opinion that Lin is not a good starter. I do believe that when all is said and done that he will emerge as the starting point guard,

I agree with this part, of course.

but if it turns out that the Rockets best interests are served by using Lin in a Ginobli-type role then they need to do that.

I think I need to clear up a misconception. Ginobili became a 6th man not because of a poor fit with Duncan and Parker, but because the Spurs wanted to cut his minutes and keep him healthy. After all, the team won the championship in 2005 with all of the Big Three as starters. So fit was not the reason for not starting Ginobili.

Health is not yet a problem with Lin (let's knock on wood). I hope people remember that before they cite Ginobili as an example for benching Lin.

[inquisitive]

Lin changed his shooting stroke in the offseason...just beautiful!

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFowjBeWNoI[/youtube]

[streetp0et]

Yes, Lin is a pretty horrible PG, but an above average ball dominate undersized shooting guard like Jason Terry, Jamal Crawford, or Bobby Jackson.

he is a poor defender, below average 3pt shooter, below average passer, but an above average player when it comes to creating his own shot.

he shouldn't start, but he should dominate the ball when Harden goes out and go up against the other team's second unit. but in the last five minutes of the game you could use a line up of Dwight/Parson/Harden/Lin/Beverley if the teams wants to go small and get some 3pt shooting around Dwight.

Jeremy Lin assist % last year : 30%
Terry / Crawford / Jackson career assist % : 23%/ 20% / 19.5%

Now, can u post assist % for Terry, Crawford and Jackson when they actually played PG, and not scoring machine 6th men?

[HotRocks34]

I can't believe someone called Beverley's performance against Holiday a fluke and dare to insinuate that Lin's defense might be better than Bevs. These lin fans, smh, seeing what they want to see as usual.

Beverley's performance against Holiday was a statistical fluke. That is not my opinion, it is the opinion of the statistics. So if you want to be offended, you will have to take it up with them.

Lin is a better career steals player than is Beverley. Again, this is not my opinion. It is fact.

I did not say Lin was a better defender than Beverley. The concept that Beverley "destroyed" Holiday was based, however, upon his steals against Holiday. And as the statistics point out, that performance was a fluke one given Beverley's statistical history.

[Mr. E]

Perhaps there is too much of a negative connotation associated with the word "fluke." I doubt anyone would be offended if it were referred to as a "Statistical aberration" instead of a "fluke."

All that said, it was clear from the context of your statement that it was not used in a manner offensive to Beverley.

[HotRocks34]

Perhaps there is too much of a negative connotation associated with the word "fluke." I doubt anyone would be offended if it were referred to as a "Statistical aberration" instead of a "fluke."

All that said, it was clear from the context of your statement that it was not used in a manner offensive to Beverley.

That's fair.

I am a huge Beverley fan. He is great and was a brilliant find by Morey. And I LOVE that he is pushing Lin to improve. Competition is a good thing. They are helping each other to become better.

Lin and Beverley are two of the best players on the team based upon their performances this preseason. I'm thrilled for them, and for the team.

[bklynstoops]

getting steals off Jrue is not the hardest thing in the world.

[RaptorNews]

LOL what a joke. Get off Lin's cock for a second and see it for what it is.... if its best for the team for Lin to come off the bench then do it.

Yeah yeah we all know the Asian culture is to not bring shame on your family. Poor Lin is going to go home and cop a beating by his dad because he comes off the bench and because it shames all Asians that he is not a starter.

What a joke. Lin doesn't deserve to be starting on that team. He is average at best and usually below average.

Poor attempt of being funny.

Actually no I was being serious. I am sick of "fans" who only support a team because 1 player is the same race as them... and then have a cry when people don't think their hero is as good as they do.

Lin is average and overrated and no way in hell should be starting in this league. Let's be honest the only reason he is even on Houston's roster is because he is the token Asian recruited to keep all of the bandwagon Asian fans that originally came across for Yao Ming.

He is ****... and they should just deal with it... without crying and moaning about him not being a starter.

Sorry you might not have noticed but you're a gross human being. Stop trying to cover your offensive garbage with "being honest"

[Transistor]

Last year Lin came in 2nd as the Western all-star starting point guard, with his marketability I don't think he's leaving the league anytime soon.

Tbh, he sucks. But if you can get him in a good market and taylor a system for him then he's a positive addition to a franchise economically

To repeat from earlier in the thread:

* During Linsanity in New York, Lin's PER 36 scoring was 19.6
* In the 2013 preseason, Lin's PER 36 scoring is 19.4

So, for all the people who tried to pretend that Linsanity was a fluke, and who claimed that Lin "sucks," you appear to have been wrong. He "sucked" last year, at the start of the year, apparently because his knee wasn't right. Last year in the preseason, as he was recovering from knee surgery, his PER 36 scoring mark was 9.0.

I just did a quick run-through on Lin's efficiency numbers this preseason as compared with his efficiency numbers during Linsanity in New York. The efficiency numbers this preseason are actually better PER 36 than the numbers in New York. If Patrick Beverley weren't playing so well, the story might be how Linsanity basically appears to be back in business. At least to the extent it could be in the preseason.

To help clarify things a bit more, lets take a look at Lin's 3rd-year numbers -- reduced as they may have been due to the early season knee struggles -- and compare them with "Player X" in his 3rd year.

Lin -- 13/3/6 on 14.9 PER
X ---- 08/3/6 on 10.9 PER

To see who "Player X" is, check out the spolier

Spoiler:

Player X = Steve Nash

The truth is that both Beverley and Lin are playing at a very high level, and Houston is looking to be in great shape at the point guard spot.

The lack of information about, and/or blind dislike of, Lin seems often to be so irrational it is frightening. You don't have to like him, but it is probably best to adhere to some version of fact-based argument when talking about him, even if you are seeking to put him down.

Well said. This is also a good sign and a good "problem" for the Rockets since both Lin and Beverly are playing well so far this pre-season.

[LLcoleJ]

LOL what a joke. Get off Lin's cock for a second and see it for what it is.... if its best for the team for Lin to come off the bench then do it.

Yeah yeah we all know the Asian culture is to not bring shame on your family. Poor Lin is going to go home and cop a beating by his dad because he comes off the bench and because it shames all Asians that he is not a starter.

What a joke. Lin doesn't deserve to be starting on that team. He is average at best and usually below average.

Poor attempt of being funny.

Actually no I was being serious. I am sick of "fans" who only support a team because 1 player is the same race as them... and then have a cry when people don't think their hero is as good as they do.

Lin is average and overrated and no way in hell should be starting in this league. Let's be honest the only reason he is even on Houston's roster is because he is the token Asian recruited to keep all of the bandwagon Asian fans that originally came across for Yao Ming.

He is ****... and they should just deal with it... without crying and moaning about him not being a starter.

Let's be honest, you are now banned.

[kingkirk]

The Holiday thing was an understandable fluke, as I discussed earlier in the thread. I don't think that will ever happen again between the two players, as now Holiday knows Beverley's game (and he did not know it before as he had never faced Beverley in a game previously). It's like Lin the first time teams saw him and then seeing him the second time around.

Beverley has not had anything like that in the rest of the preseason and I don't ever expect to see something like that again, including against a high-turnover player like Holiday. The only way I could see a repeat of the Holiday thing happening is if another high-turnover player goes against Beverley for the first time once again. Second time around, can't see it happening again.

Just to help point out the flukiness of the Holiday incident, Beverley has never had another 4+ steal game in his NBA career (50 games). Lin's PER 36 career steals mark (2.1) is better than Beverley's (1.9) as well. To help further the point, in 82 regular season games last year, Lin had 10 games of four or more steals.

Beverley is a strong defender, without question. But people may have an overinflated sense of Beverley's defensive abilities. In the OKC series, for example, Thunder backup Reggie Jackson got the better of Beverley and overpowered him several times on offense in the final 5 quarters of the series. I think this is why Beverley wanted to gain weight in the summer, to help such a situation from occurring again.

Agreed.

I'm not expecting him to go into god mode in terms of his defensive abilities every night and start stripping the ball off of every PG in the league.

I just feel a defensive guy like that whose limitations or weaknesses may be best covered up playing with the starters whilst maximising his actual positives by not needing to worry about scoring because he is in with those guys to me is a win-win for all involved.

I think his overall value is minimised if he is coming off the bench and expected to offer that intensity defensively whilst also looking to run the team and get shots for others.

With the starters, he can focus on what he does best whilst playing off the Rockets best players who can get him easy looks etc.

Again, going back to the team balance thing, i just like how their rotations sit for a full 48 minutes if Lin is the 6th man and Beverly is the defensive point guard who spots up and allows Harden, Howard & Parsons to own the ball in those 5 man lineups.

[defhalotones]

Speaking of Harden, does anyone else think that he will have a more difficult time getting to the rim? If Asik and Howard are on the court together, I have to imagine that Hardens biggest strength will be hampered..

[Joseph17]

No. He's a starter with a big upside. I'm not saying this is going to happen, but he's capable of being a borderline all-star when he reaches his prime. He has the size, strength, and quickness of a point guard combined with a solid skillset. There's no reason why he can't play almost as good as he played during the Linsanity era.

[pLutO oR bUst]

Lin started 82 games last year and their team overachieved. Looks like he did fine as a starter. It's not like Beverly is outplaying Lin. So what is the question here? Lin should be the unquestioned starter.

If 20 games into the season and he is struggling, or his backup is outplaying him, then go ahead and bench his ass.

[Luv those Knicks]

I don't think we are going to see Lin in the league after his contract expires.

So a starting caliber PG who doesn't have any maturity issues/isn't a headcase is out of the league in a few years?

Seriously, that's bonkers. Lin was pretty average last year, but average starters don't get bounced from the league after 4 years. And he certainly has the skillset to be above average.

Plus he works hard, he's smart, he's a coach's player. I could see if he has injury issues he's out of the league, but not if he stays healthy. I'd take him on the Knicks in a heartbeat. I know why they let him go, and I know that Woodson saw him as a backup, but he's still a NBA level talent.

[postcall]

So a starting caliber PG who doesn't have any maturity issues/isn't a headcase is out of the league in a few years?

Seriously, that's bonkers. Lin was pretty average last year, but average starters don't get bounced from the league after 4 years. And he certainly has the skillset to be above average.

Plus he works hard, he's smart, he's a coach's player. I could see if he has injury issues he's out of the league, but not if he stays healthy. I'd take him on the Knicks in a heartbeat. I know why they let him go, and I know that Woodson saw him as a backup, but he's still a NBA level talent.

\
Woodson sees JR as starting material and Bargs as Melo's 2. He thinks points per game is a better than points per possession when it comes to defense. Woodson's public comments probably differ from his real thought process is what I am trying to say. Lin looks really really good in the preseason. Dont care if he starts or not if he gets 30+ minutes he will wreck havoc against backups or can take good shots against starters who are busy trying to stop Harden and Howard.

[NOODLESTYLE]

Unless Lin flat out quits or thinks he has a better opportunity overseas, I don't know how someone can think he'll be out of the league. At worst, Lin is a mini-MLE guy. Ramon Sessions, Jose Barea, Jerryd Bayless, Darren Collison, Jarret Jack, Devin Harris, etc are all still in the league, which I think at worst are similar range contracts Lin gets. Even Jordan Farmar is back. Mark Cuban and Donnie Nelson would have Lin on speed dial for a roster spot.

Ideally, if Lin can keep his 3point shot consistent this year, he'll fit with Harden. If the Rockets prefer a 3&D guy, I agree Beverley should be given a chance. It'll depend on matchups but the Rockets also have players off the bench that fit well with Lin (which can still interchange with starters). So far in the pre-season, both have been good but we'll see once the season progresses and those back-to-backs hit. I'm also waiting to see what improvement Howard eventually shows in the post. He struggled against the Pacers, but credit their defense for containing Howard.

Here are his pre-season clips so far. I like these because it includes some defense.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9kLNN3K-4o[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyOMPE634uQ[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5g0uwHa-Ko[/youtube]