Zach Lowe article on Suns and Sixers rebuild going in different directions

[Ponchos]

The goal is not to have a solid team. The goal is to have a TITLE CONTENDING TEAM.

Sure that is the ultimate goal, and everyone wants it, but there are a ton of fans, especially casual ones, who watch their local team to be entertained, and they just want to have a team that plays hard and gives them a good game to watch, and perhaps plays a great style. MANY Suns fans LOVED the KJ days, watching those teams from 88 to 95, even though there were heartbreaking series to the Blazers, Bulls and Rockets.

Same with the 2005-2010 Suns days. The Suns picked up TONS of new fans with the Barkley years and the Nash years, so obviously those new fans just loved how entertaining the Suns were to watch.

For many, it's not just championship or bust. It's also for entertainment.

And not only that, sometimes a good team in the playoffs can get lucky and win the whole thing. Anything can happen once your in the playoffs. Maybe other players stars get injured, maybe the competing team can go on a hot streak. Maybe a team that has been consistently in the playoffs year in year out eventually gains enough chemistry and experience they ccan eventually win a championship like the Mavs did.

And competing year in year out gives you the opportunity to sign free agents. Players want to go to teams that compete and win and have a good culture.

Also, when you tank, even if you hit on your draft pick and pick a franchise player, there is no guarantee that you'll even make the playoffs let alone be title contenders. The Timberwolves had Kevin Love and never made the playoffs. The Cavs had Kyrie and didn't make the playoffs until Lebron decided to come back home. Kevin Garnett couldn't even make the playoffs on many of those terrible wolves teams.

The Mavs were competing for a title for years and eventually won one. They didn't get lucky and win it all.

Can you name a few teams you would say got lucky in the playoffs and won it all?

[koogiking]

It is much better to be a team like the Memphis Grizzlies who compete year in and year out than be a team like the 76ers. The Grizzlies may be seen as a "treadmill" team but they are a tough out every single year. One season they may even make the finals. They were able to get to the Western Conference Finals one season and they also have battled the Conference Champions hard every single year. It's always come down to a few possessions and points.

The Indiana Pacers of the 90s were a treadmill team. Imagine if that team never existed and had been a tanking team.

[Ponchos]

It is much better to be a team like the Memphis Grizzlies who compete year in and year out than be a team like the 76ers. The Grizzlies may be seen as a "treadmill" team but they are a tough out every single year. One season they may even make the finals. They were able to get to the Western Conference Finals one season and they also have battled the Conference Champions hard every single year. It's always come down to a few possessions and points.

The Indiana Pacers of the 90s were a treadmill team. Imagine if that team never existed and had been a tanking team.

The Grizzlies are not a treadmill team. They're fringe title contenders. They've been near the top end of Western Conference teams for years.

It's silly to compare them to the sixers. The sixers are tanking to become a contending team, you know, like the Griz, Warriors, Cavs, Spurs, OKC, etc.

Raps, Hawks, Pistons, Brooklyn etc. Those are the treadmillers.

[bwgood77]

It is much better to be a team like the Memphis Grizzlies who compete year in and year out than be a team like the 76ers. The Grizzlies may be seen as a "treadmill" team but they are a tough out every single year. One season they may even make the finals. They were able to get to the Western Conference Finals one season and they also have battled the Conference Champions hard every single year. It's always come down to a few possessions and points.

The Indiana Pacers of the 90s were a treadmill team. Imagine if that team never existed and had been a tanking team.

The Grizzlies are not a treadmill team. They're fringe title contenders. They've been near the top end of Western Conference teams for years.

It's silly to compare them to the sixers. The sixers are tanking to become a contending team, you know, like the Griz, Warriors, Cavs, Spurs, OKC, etc.

Raps, Hawks, Pistons, Brooklyn etc. Those are the treadmillers.

Well, by definition they are a treadmill team, but in a good way. I pull for them when the Suns are out of it. They have a serious chance every year. They are running at a good pace on the treadmill, and they may run faster. The Sixers are walking very slow right now on the treadmill.

[WBaronsBigdog4]

I follow both the sixers, and dubs. Polar comparisons. Yes, the sixers were pretty bad to watch over the last two years. They play really hard, but unfortunately are young and were limited on talent. MCW, is talented and got win some games, but he was very inconsistent, and his stats reflect the sixers lacking players who could create their and make their on plays.

However, if you think about it, and look back, the Sixers have a lottery pick and/or first round pick in their likely starting line-up from every draft in the previous four years. With two picks, Embiid and Daric, two outstanding talents to hopefully play in 2016.

2015 - Okafor Center - Lottery pick
2014 - Stauskas SG - Lottery pick who the Sixers were trying to obtain from the Kings via trade in 2014. They got their man.
2013 - Noel PF - Lottery pick via the Holiday trade
2012 - Tony Wroten PG - 27th pick (Philly's 15th pick, Harkless went to Orlando in the Bynum trade. It can be argued that Wroten has been a better pick than Harkless).

Yes, they need to shore up their swingman and guard positions, but do have decent young talent there at Thompson, Covington and Grant. In addition, there were not any big money talent to take you deep into the post-season available, so why spend up big now. Someone has already posted the future draft position which is the strongest in the league. The Kings swap gives Philly a 'double chance' in the lottery the next two draft too. In truth Sixers have only really tanked in 2013 after they traded Hawes, Holiday and Turner, and 2014 when they traded MCW. I would not consider 2015 a tank year, considering the talent that they added, rather a rebuilding year, afterall they did try to get Daric to Philly, and Embiid is having a tough rehabilitation - best of luck to the young fella.

[Ponchos]

It is much better to be a team like the Memphis Grizzlies who compete year in and year out than be a team like the 76ers. The Grizzlies may be seen as a "treadmill" team but they are a tough out every single year. One season they may even make the finals. They were able to get to the Western Conference Finals one season and they also have battled the Conference Champions hard every single year. It's always come down to a few possessions and points.

The Indiana Pacers of the 90s were a treadmill team. Imagine if that team never existed and had been a tanking team.

The Grizzlies are not a treadmill team. They're fringe title contenders. They've been near the top end of Western Conference teams for years.

It's silly to compare them to the sixers. The sixers are tanking to become a contending team, you know, like the Griz, Warriors, Cavs, Spurs, OKC, etc.

Raps, Hawks, Pistons, Brooklyn etc. Those are the treadmillers.

Well, by definition they are a treadmill team, but in a good way. I pull for them when the Suns are out of it. They have a serious chance every year. They are running at a good pace on the treadmill, and they may run faster. The Sixers are walking very slow right now on the treadmill.

Your definition of treadmill doesn't really line up with what I think the consensus definition is. Philly are tankers, not "really slow treadmillers". It's called a treadmill because those teams are too good to get transformative draft picks, yet are not real title contenders.

When the playoffs start, if you have a legit shot at the title, you're not a treadmill team.

[koogiking]

Okay, so whats the difference between a title contender and a treadmill team? The Grizzlies were 5th,7th, 5th, 4th and 8th seed in the last 5 years and they've never won a game in the conference finals. Basically same as the Atlanta Hawks, whats the difference between the two?

You can build a team like those two teams without tanking for 5 years.

The Mavs were not seen as contenders the year they won the title. They were looked at as a regular season joke team that would always flame out in the playoffs. They were essentially seen as a treadmill team, but they shocked the critics and won it in 2011

[Slava]

Can you cite the excerpt that that is suggested?

If Philly is really willing to do this for five, six, or seven seasons, it almost cannot fail. It will either land a superstar or draft so many good players that they will gather a solid NBA team. Brett Brown may check himself into an asylum before then, but if you keep getting lottery picks, you will eventually succeed. Even when Philly was on the clock at no. 3, it was on the phone with teams in the lower half of the lottery, working to secure another high pick, according to league sources.

The team has been profitable during this extended downturn, per league documents obtained by Grantland; Philly pays no money into the league’s revenue-sharing system and receives the same luxury tax distribution as every other team that comes in below the tax line.

"is turning a profit thanks to revenue sharing"
"receives the same luxury tax distribution as every other team that comes in below the tax line" while not getting any revenue sharing money otherwise.

I mean, lets not pretend that those statements are remotely the same. They aren't. Associating the two is either massively missing the point or intentionally misleading.


But for those concerned, here is the maximum possible '2014-15 lux tax distributions that allegedly made Philly 'turning a profit':

Philadelphia: 830k
Phoenix: 830k
Lakers: 830k

We really going to argue this is effecting things the way suggested?

`

Thanks for being snide but as a matter of fact Lakers kind of send a significant amount of their TV deal and merchandise sale money back into the revenue sharing pool so $830k isn't simple and basic as you make it look.

[bwgood77]

The Grizzlies are not a treadmill team. They're fringe title contenders. They've been near the top end of Western Conference teams for years.

It's silly to compare them to the sixers. The sixers are tanking to become a contending team, you know, like the Griz, Warriors, Cavs, Spurs, OKC, etc.

Raps, Hawks, Pistons, Brooklyn etc. Those are the treadmillers.

Well, by definition they are a treadmill team, but in a good way. I pull for them when the Suns are out of it. They have a serious chance every year. They are running at a good pace on the treadmill, and they may run faster. The Sixers are walking very slow right now on the treadmill.

Your definition of treadmill doesn't really line up with what I think the consensus definition is. Philly are tankers, not "really slow treadmillers". It's called a treadmill because those teams are too good to get transformative draft picks, yet are not real title contenders.

When the playoffs start, if you have a legit shot at the title, you're not a treadmill team.

I know it's not, but many teams stick in the same place for years and top out, and that is treadmilling. Philly isn't really taking an approach to try and stay in the same place, but they have been treadmilling for a couple of years, and I'm sure they hope that changes, but there is no guarantee it will. Many teams stick down there forever. Maybe they get Ben Simmons next year, but maybe they end up with someone else from that crappy draft class.

[Ponchos]

Okay, so whats the difference between a title contender and a treadmill team? The Grizzlies were 5th,7th, 5th, 4th and 8th seed in the last 5 years and they've never won a game in the conference finals. Basically same as the Atlanta Hawks, whats the difference between the two?

You can build a team like those two teams without tanking for 5 years.

The Mavs were not seen as contenders the year they won the title. They were looked at as a regular season joke team that would always flame out in the playoffs. They were essentially seen as a treadmill team, but they shocked the critics and won it in 2011

The Mavs won 57 games they won the championship. The only experts they "shocked" are stupid people.

The difference between the Grizz and the Hawks? A lot of talent for starters.

The Western conference is TOUGH. Just being able to hang with the big boys year in and year out makes you a title contender.

The Spurs went out in the first round this year. It means nothing. That team was a legit title contender, not a treadmill team.

[Hook_Em]

Hinkie will be fired and posting on RealGM within 3 years. His username will be Process_Backfired.

[Ponchos]

Well, by definition they are a treadmill team, but in a good way. I pull for them when the Suns are out of it. They have a serious chance every year. They are running at a good pace on the treadmill, and they may run faster. The Sixers are walking very slow right now on the treadmill.

Your definition of treadmill doesn't really line up with what I think the consensus definition is. Philly are tankers, not "really slow treadmillers". It's called a treadmill because those teams are too good to get transformative draft picks, yet are not real title contenders.

When the playoffs start, if you have a legit shot at the title, you're not a treadmill team.

I know it's not, but many teams stick in the same place for years and top out, and that is treadmilling. Philly isn't really taking an approach to try and stay in the same place, but they have been treadmilling for a couple of years, and I'm sure they hope that changes, but there is no guarantee it will. Many teams stick down there forever. Maybe they get Ben Simmons next year, but maybe they end up with someone else from that crappy draft class.

Which teams get stuck down there forever? Waiting for a list.

[bwgood77]

Your definition of treadmill doesn't really line up with what I think the consensus definition is. Philly are tankers, not "really slow treadmillers". It's called a treadmill because those teams are too good to get transformative draft picks, yet are not real title contenders.

When the playoffs start, if you have a legit shot at the title, you're not a treadmill team.

I know it's not, but many teams stick in the same place for years and top out, and that is treadmilling. Philly isn't really taking an approach to try and stay in the same place, but they have been treadmilling for a couple of years, and I'm sure they hope that changes, but there is no guarantee it will. Many teams stick down there forever. Maybe they get Ben Simmons next year, but maybe they end up with someone else from that crappy draft class.

Which teams get stuck down there forever? Waiting for a list.

WAY too long of list to do.....I take it you are new to the nba, but many teams never made the playoffs for years. You can research it in multiple places. It might be good to check out some history being a new fan to the NBA.

[Ponchos]

I know it's not, but many teams stick in the same place for years and top out, and that is treadmilling. Philly isn't really taking an approach to try and stay in the same place, but they have been treadmilling for a couple of years, and I'm sure they hope that changes, but there is no guarantee it will. Many teams stick down there forever. Maybe they get Ben Simmons next year, but maybe they end up with someone else from that crappy draft class.

Which teams get stuck down there forever? Waiting for a list.

WAY too long of list to do.....I take it you are new to the nba, but many teams never made the playoffs for years. You can research it in multiple places. It might be good to check out some history being a new fan to the NBA.

So now it's years, not forever. Waiting for a list of teams that "stick down there forever". Just one team, name it.

[HartfordWhalers]

"is turning a profit thanks to revenue sharing"
"receives the same luxury tax distribution as every other team that comes in below the tax line" while not getting any revenue sharing money otherwise.

I mean, lets not pretend that those statements are remotely the same. They aren't. Associating the two is either massively missing the point or intentionally misleading.


But for those concerned, here is the maximum possible '2014-15 lux tax distributions that allegedly made Philly 'turning a profit':

Philadelphia: 830k
Phoenix: 830k
Lakers: 830k

We really going to argue this is effecting things the way suggested?

`

Thanks for being snide but as a matter of fact Lakers kind of send a significant amount of their TV deal and merchandise sale money back into the revenue sharing pool so $830k isn't simple and basic as you make it look.

That 830k is the amount that the Lakers, Phoenix and Philly all got from the " lux tax distributions "

Or was your point that lux tax distributions and revenue sharing are entirely different things? If so, I agree. Philly receives none (zero) of the massive amounts the Lakers send into the league for revenue sharing.

So, how relevant was that 830k in making Philly make a profit? It wasn't, unlike you claimed. You can find it snide to point out the difference, but you also see the difference between that 830k and actual revenue sharing as large enough to note they aren't remotely the same. Which is exactly the point.

[thamadkant]

It is much better to be a team like the Memphis Grizzlies who compete year in and year out than be a team like the 76ers. The Grizzlies may be seen as a "treadmill" team but they are a tough out every single year. One season they may even make the finals. They were able to get to the Western Conference Finals one season and they also have battled the Conference Champions hard every single year. It's always come down to a few possessions and points.

The Indiana Pacers of the 90s were a treadmill team. Imagine if that team never existed and had been a tanking team.

The Grizzlies are not a treadmill team. They're fringe title contenders. They've been near the top end of Western Conference teams for years.

It's silly to compare them to the sixers. The sixers are tanking to become a contending team, you know, like the Griz, Warriors, Cavs, Spurs, OKC, etc.

Raps, Hawks, Pistons, Brooklyn etc. Those are the treadmillers.

Well, by definition they are a treadmill team, but in a good way. I pull for them when the Suns are out of it. They have a serious chance every year. They are running at a good pace on the treadmill, and they may run faster. The Sixers are walking very slow right now on the treadmill.

bw, i think you need to put the green font on, Im getting confused here.

[Ponchos]

"is turning a profit thanks to revenue sharing"
"receives the same luxury tax distribution as every other team that comes in below the tax line" while not getting any revenue sharing money otherwise.

I mean, lets not pretend that those statements are remotely the same. They aren't. Associating the two is either massively missing the point or intentionally misleading.


But for those concerned, here is the maximum possible '2014-15 lux tax distributions that allegedly made Philly 'turning a profit':

Philadelphia: 830k
Phoenix: 830k
Lakers: 830k

We really going to argue this is effecting things the way suggested?

`

Thanks for being snide but as a matter of fact Lakers kind of send a significant amount of their TV deal and merchandise sale money back into the revenue sharing pool so $830k isn't simple and basic as you make it look.

That 830k is the amount that the Lakers, Phoenix and Philly all got from the " lux tax distributions "

Or was your point that lux tax distributions and revenue sharing are entirely different things? If so, I agree. Philly receives none (zero) of the massive amounts the Lakers send into the league for revenue sharing.

So, how relevant was that 830k in making Philly make a profit? It wasn't, unlike you claimed. You can find it snide to point out the difference, but you also see the difference between that 830k and actual revenue sharing as large enough to note they aren't remotely the same. Which is exactly the point.

Just gotta say, I enjoy your rational posts. It must be hard being a Philly fan reading the GB. I think I'd go nuts.

[bwgood77]

Which teams get stuck down there forever? Waiting for a list.

WAY too long of list to do.....I take it you are new to the nba, but many teams never made the playoffs for years. You can research it in multiple places. It might be good to check out some history being a new fan to the NBA.

So now it's years, not forever. Waiting for a list of teams that "stick down there forever". Just one team, name it.

OK, GS didn't make the playoffs for YEARS, nor did the Clips. Minnesota has been stuck for about 10 years already. Washington was stuck forever and Charlotte/NO was as well..they made it one year but that didn't last. The Knicks were stuck for a long time. Sacramento has been stuck outside of the playoffs for like 8 years or so. Toronto didn't make it for years either. I don't know if I need to go on...I guess I could if you want me to, but this is just recent examples. I'm glad to educate you on the recent history, but it has been happening for years.

[Ponchos]

WAY too long of list to do.....I take it you are new to the nba, but many teams never made the playoffs for years. You can research it in multiple places. It might be good to check out some history being a new fan to the NBA.

So now it's years, not forever. Waiting for a list of teams that "stick down there forever". Just one team, name it.

OK, GS didn't make the playoffs for YEARS, nor did the Clips. Minnesota has been stuck for about 10 years already. Washington was stuck forever and Charlotte/NO was as well..they made it one year but that didn't last. The Knicks were stuck for a long time. Sacramento has been stuck outside of the playoffs for like 8 years or so. Toronto didn't make it for years either. I don't know if I need to go on...I guess I could if you want me to, but this is just recent examples. I'm glad to educate you on the recent history, but it has been happening for years.

Those are mostly teams that were not "tanking". Just kinda treadmilling outside of the playoffs.

It's funny that you say GS first when they just won a title. So I guess you didn't mean forever.

Anyhow, the word forever was what I had a problem with. It seems you meant 5-10 years?

[mtron929]

Okay, so whats the difference between a title contender and a treadmill team? The Grizzlies were 5th,7th, 5th, 4th and 8th seed in the last 5 years and they've never won a game in the conference finals. Basically same as the Atlanta Hawks, whats the difference between the two?

You can build a team like those two teams without tanking for 5 years.

The Mavs were not seen as contenders the year they won the title. They were looked at as a regular season joke team that would always flame out in the playoffs. They were essentially seen as a treadmill team, but they shocked the critics and won it in 2011

It's a subtle difference. Fringe contenders (Clippers, Bulls, Grizzlies) can conceivably win titles if they get a few breaks here and there. Treadmilling teams (Raptors, Suns) just cannot win titles as they are currently setup. Moreover, with most treadmill teams, you cannot conceivably see how the current core can improve enough to win a title. Whereas, for other teams (e.g. New Orleans), you can conceivably see collective improvements to the core that would make them formidable in the nearby future.