What's preventing Demar DeRozan from making that leap into a Superstardom like Harden years ago?

[giordunk]

DeRozan is also like... pretty old. Harden leapt into Superstardom his first (maybe second year) in Houston when he was 24. I think most NBA players primes are around age 27 so the writing is on the wall.

[zFoxHoUnD-x]

Some of your own fans are your biggest haters...really strange.

Mostly because he doesn't put any effort into playing defense. It's painful watching him on D.

On offense he still takes a lot of bad low percentage shots.

That's what annoys raptor fans.

Sent from my C6506 using RealGM mobile app

I understand the defense part, but he's actually pretty good at team d. Just not man to man d. he doesn't take low percentage shots cause he is shooting 51%, so it's a false narrative. If you've been watching him this year he has improved yet again and is making the right passing plays.

No he is not good at team D either.

Try watching him on D for an entire game. I've done it and it's maddening watching him coast around, constantly getting hung up on weak screens, losing his man, slow or nonexistent rotations, and simply not having any defensive intensity whatsoever. His body language and effort is that of someone who just doesn't care about defense.

There was a reason PJ Tucker got in his grill last season and told him to D-up. Demar said "I got you" and actually played solid defense for a few possessions. So he his capable of playing good defence, but the fact that he doesn't tells me he just doesn't give a damn.

Honestly, we needed PJ to stay for just that reason, cuz clearly no one else can motivate Demar to play D.

"Hustle is a skill, if it wasn't, everyone would do it."

Demar does not have the hustle skill in his repertoire.

Sent from my C6506 using RealGM mobile app

[StatLine]

Harden's handle and 3pt shot. If only demar can break his man down, facing up and off the dribble, like harden.

[HeartBreakKid]

Ok I think we've established there's levels to this and Harden is on a different one for various different reasons i.e./ bball IQ, ball handling, passing, shooting etc. etc.

But this nonsense about DeRozan being a so-called glorified scrub or a "borderline" all-star is just that, nonsense. He really doesn't get his props because people want to compare his shooting numbers to players who are just that, shooters. I get that they play the same position i.e./ Beal, Hayward, Thompson etc but those guys came into the league as that. DeMar never was and likely never will be a shooter. He's a player that came into it as pretty much a raw athlete (not elite one either) that has done an incredible job developing himself into a LEGIT all-star (not superstar). Not to mention much of these guys looks are created FOR them not by them.

I see other players that get far more love than him that I've already mentioned like Beal and Hayward (again because there is a new obsession with shooting percentage because it's so deeply ingrained in the style of play now, I get that) but it's annoying reading people completely downplay what DeMar does/done. I'd love for this board to find me another player that carried his team to the best record in the East post ASG without Lowry and kept them as a 50+W team... meanwhile you have a guy like Beal who can barely keep the Wiz above .500 with players like Porter, Oubre and Morris right now or Hayward who made a SINGLE Playoffs appearance even with a roster that included Gobert, Favors, Hood...who are all guys that are EASILY better than anyone on the Raptors when Lowry was out. The guy was the only player since Jordan to average 30+ppg in the first 10+ games of the season and when it was Lowry that completely stunk up the joint last year's Playoffs against the Bucks it was DeMar that carried the Raps past Giannis and the Bucks.

While I get these aren't HOF or superstar accomplishments and he's not a top 10-15 player in the league, it's nothing some supposed glorified scrub or "borderline" all-star can do. People are free to like other players over him for shooting efficiency or whatever but give the guys some respect, he's not perfect but he's earned the right to be considered an all-star and definitely one of the better players in the league.

But those are just regular season accomplishments - don't you see a pattern with pro Raptor arguments? They're usually dissecting the regular season, saying things like hey the Raptors have a top offense blah blah - the Raptors have never had problems winning games in the RS or having a top offense.

DeMar Derozan is a borderline all-star because he is not a dominant RS player by your own admission, but he is also a subpar and not a particularly useful post season player - which is important because the entire point of the game is to win the post season tournament.

It depends on how you define borderline all-star, but another way of looking at it is any player who is considered an all-star is probably going to be better than DeRozan.

Also, your comparisons do not really make that much sense - for instance let's take the Jazz.

Gordon Hayward does have better teammates than DeRozan, the Jazz are much more talented. But there are two reasons why the Jazz do not place significantly higher than the Raptors, and none of them have to do with DeRozan being a better player than Gobert or Hayward

- The Jazz have suffered massively from injuries within the past few years, which heavily mitigates their talent/depth advantage.

- The Jazz compete in a much tougher conference, so while they are talented relative to the Raptors, they are not talented relative to the Warriors, Spurs, Clippers (when they were healthy), Thunder (when they had Durant) and Rockets.

The Jazz were also held back because they did not have a point guard for a long time, when they finally got Jeff Teague they became a playoff team.


Again, the Raptors might not be top heavy but they have always been a DEEP team. They win RS games not because DeRozan and Lowry destroy everyone (though they are good during the RS, more so Lowry than DeRozan) it is because their bench plays well. They are a DEPTH based team, which is another reason why they are not good in the playoffs. They have two all-star players who's play declines in the PS, and a bunch of rotation players - they might be quality rotation players but they need great players to support in order to be useful. Comparing the Raptors to the Wizards in the RS is arbitrary, because the Wizards are the opposite. The Wizards lack depth, but trade quantity for quality, and their best player is a cut above the Raptors best player. The Wizards will not have good RS records, but who is more scary to face in the playoffs? Probably the Wizards, because objectively they are a better team than the Raptors.

Heavily emphasizing on RS only makes sense if you're comparing DeRozan to a player who has never played in the PS like Jokic or Cousins - because we simply do not know how good a player like Jokic can be in the post season (though you could speculate of course). But comparing DeRozan to someone like Isaiah Thomas seems silly, because we know that Thomas game might drop off, but he is still more useful than DeRozan based on Thomas' stats and skill set.

RS record and performance is not the sole indicator of quality. DeRozan is not a great playoff performer. It isn't hyperbole to say he is a borderline all-star player, there are only 24 all stars every season - if we say DeRozan is a borderline top 25 player it doesn't sound that crazy. If you think it sounds crazy, then I could name and make arguments for about 25 players who are better than DeRozan.


Most teams worth note have a player who is as good as DeRozan or better, and DeRozan wasn't even the best player on his own team. Among all-stars, he is near the bottom. If that's insulting to say he's a bad all-star then so be it, but if you can name players who you think are worthy/credible all-stars (so no Jrue Holiday type of all-stars) who are worse than DeRozan, then go ahead - but I don't think you could name that many.

[Double Helix]

The Raptors are built uniquely in a way where they treat Derozan like a striker in soccer. Lowry needs a top 30 offensive player beside him to unlock his talents and the Raptors have that in Derozan. The issue is that Derozan needs to be hid on defence. He’s given the easier cover and according to Synergy he’s about average guarding that guy (usually the opposition’s 3&D shooter).

However, because Tucker last year, and OG Anunoby this year, are forced to guard the opposing star wing and do a solid but not lock down job doing that when you work out the lineup data Derozan remains the common weak link through the ridge regression in those starting units, along with Valanciunas, as a result of him consistently being on the court when opposing, starting caliber star wings are doing their damage. The more Jonas Valanciunas and Demar Derozan are staggered away from each other the more I suspect Derozan’s DRPM will climb. The regression tries to share the blame between them but IMO JV is the bigger liability versus these modern spread offences.

The Raptors benches have also been among the best in the league for years. Derozan has played with 6 man of the year winners and some plus defenders behind him. It’s a Masai Ujiri strength because he finds late steals in drafts and also good reclamation projects. These bench squads share time with Lowry and destroy opposition benches over small samples of a game that add up. This is often when Derozan is sitting. Real plus minus and net rating both equalize small samples over 100 or 200 possessions respectively in order to better compare talents and so the Raptors bench squad minutes are partially oversold as being better when they really aren’t facing the opposition’s best as often. I’m sure it’s the same for Curry playing with Klay’s backup. It makes Klay seem worse defensively than he is because his backup is on the court for even better defensive runs versus opposing benches. Klay Thompson is seen as a negative defender on Real +/- but I suspect if you threw him on the Kings this year you’d see his on/off impact numbers even higher. Lineups and teammates can impact these team impact stats considerably and Lowry is an absolute monster in Real +/- and net rating stats.

The Raptors and Derozan don’t really care though. They know that their unique mix is working for them and if you asked Masai if he wanted to swap Derozan for Wayne Ellington or somebody above Derozan in RPM he’d laugh and walk out of the room. Derozan is the Raptors striker and they have figured out ways to live with his defence via the efforts of others and value what he does offensively and how it sets up everything else that works for them.

Derozan has also been improving as a playoff defender and scorer. He seems to up his intensity on that end in the playoffs. His series against the Bucks was probably his best yet overall as a pro in the playoffs and had Lowry not been hurt, causing him to receive extra defensive attention versus the Cavs, he probably would have continued his improved playoff run there. But it goes back even further than that. Towards the end of the Heat series 2 years ago and through the Raptors 4-2 loss to the Champs afterward Derozan has been a better playoff performer. He seems to have put behind whatever issues he faced earlier than that.





Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[RightToCensor]

Supreme dribbling skill, a long ball shot, point guard mentalities

[AdagioPace]

This is preventing Demar Derozan from making that leap

[LeMasta]

a lot of things
Harden simply has a higher ceiling
He's proven that he's great at adjusting to the game. Look at his transition to a point guard... or being able to score at high rates even with the reduced amount of calls he's getting

[KnightofHyrule]

Didn't read the whole thread, but the problem that I have with DeMar DeRozan is his inconsistency. On some nights he looks like a world beater and on other nights he looks lethargic.

This season DeRozan has taken a step back in order to improve the offense, which was sorely needed. But damnit in those short bursts when the team is struggling and they NEED a bucket, DeRozan only shows up half the time.

I'm not worried about his playmaking too much. He's averaging a career high in assists this season and he's making the right play much more often. His defense is suspect, but that's never been what makes or breaks him, because he has teammates that can cover for him. Same with Harden.

DeMar just needs to be consistent. If you drop 35 points on 60% shooting and 2/4 from 3, don't drop 15 on 37% shooting and 0/4 from 3 the next game. True superstars don't exhibit that kind of variance so frequently.

But I will say this. I think despite DeMar's flaws, he is severely underrated. This dude had back to back 30 point games in Conference Finals wins, while 90% of the rest of the league was at home scratching their *****. Make a list of current players that had just ONE 30 point game in a conference final, win or loss, and trust me, that list is short.

DeRozan is a threat, no matter if it's regular season or playoffs. That's why he gets double teamed or trapped on EVERY possession in the playoffs. You have to respect that.

[Johnny Bball]

Lol at anyone taking shots at Derozan's handle or footwork.

[JunkYardDog6ix]

Man...you'd think after reading this thread that Demar was a scrub

Relative to most all stars he kinda is, he's a fools gold type of player.

LOL wow this is something I expected people to say maybe 2-3 years ago. But even now? He's proving year after year that his game is no joke and stats speak for himself. Everyone expected him to fall off but he hasnt.

Its also surprising that a celtics fans would post this considering Derozan has **** on the Celtics almost everytime he's faced them. I assumed you would get a first-hand look at how he's clearly not "fools gold" anymore

The thing about fool's gold is that that the fool believes in it

No team is winning a championship with DeMar as their first second or even 3rd option. He is severely lacking key basketball skills.

[YogurtProducer]

He's shooting .420 from mid-range as the focal point of offense, i.e. being smothered by the other team's defense. He already opens the court IMO. .420 from mid-range is not bad as long as you have other weapons that keep the defense honest.

Can you explain about Hardens playoff woes exsctly? His stats destroy Demars in every way or shape possible. In Houston he puts up 27/7/5 on 58TS% which is better than Demars best season or playoff career. Demar is the one who disappears in the post season, not James.

Demars mid range jump shooting % has dipped into the 35-38% range in the post season and his TS% in the same time period as Harden has been sub 50%. A theee point shot so teams couldn’t sag on him would help a lot more than a mid range for Harden. Not to mention, Hardens numbers from the mid range trump Demars in the post season to.

Have you looked at his shot chart for the last year's play-offs? He shot .278 from behind the three point line and barely attempted any mid range shots (2-4 from 16 ft to <3pt & 3-10 from 10 to <16 ft), making his -still mediocre- efficiency from there irrelevant.

I’m not gonna harp on a guy for not taking bad shots regardless, he was still not efficient than Demar so what’s your point here?

[DoItALL9]

Is Jerry Stackhouse (in his time) a comparable player in terms of relevance, distance from the best?

Sent from my LG-H872 using RealGM mobile app

[Vee-Rex]

He's one of the most skilled players in the League in terms of shotmaking ability, footwork & getting to the line, he's also a master in the midrange like Kobe. In terms of getting buckets I can't think of many perimeter players better than him at it.

Yet it feels like something's missing in his game. His advanced stats aren't the best & I feel like he should be averaging 29/30 PPG easy with his talent.

Watch on YouTube

lol are you serious ? I'll point out the key factors :

1. He's a mediocre ball handler , although he has improved over his career ( he couldn't dribble at all as a rookie ) , but he is still nowhere close to Harden , and nowhere near where a star wing should be.

2. He's a terrible defender - Surprisingly for his body type, he's one of the worst defenders in the league , and I mean this literally.

3. He's not explosive - People think he's explosive because he competed in a few dunk contests but athleticism/= explosiveness. Compared to superstar wing players that are athletics , he is nowhere close. He is very slow with his motions , almost never dunks in games unless its a fast break 1-0 ( even a 2-1 fast break he will settle for a layup ). He just doesn't have explosiveness at all. He needs to have an empty gym to show off his "hops"

4. He can't shoot threes.

5. He's soft

6. All he can do is shoot fadeaway 2s - Not a great rebounder or passer , so pretty much hes a fadeway 2 specialist. Screams superstar to you ?

A bit harsh, don't you think?

Sent from my SM-G930P using RealGM mobile app

[sca]

Can you explain about Hardens playoff woes exsctly? His stats destroy Demars in every way or shape possible. In Houston he puts up 27/7/5 on 58TS% which is better than Demars best season or playoff career. Demar is the one who disappears in the post season, not James.

Demars mid range jump shooting % has dipped into the 35-38% range in the post season and his TS% in the same time period as Harden has been sub 50%. A theee point shot so teams couldn’t sag on him would help a lot more than a mid range for Harden. Not to mention, Hardens numbers from the mid range trump Demars in the post season to.

Have you looked at his shot chart for the last year's play-offs? He shot .278 from behind the three point line and barely attempted any mid range shots (2-4 from 16 ft to <3pt & 3-10 from 10 to <16 ft), making his -still mediocre- efficiency from there irrelevant.

I’m not gonna harp on a guy for not taking bad shots regardless, he was still not efficient than Demar so what’s your point here?

Dude, what is your point? You're the one that came up with those questions in the first place. I specifically said that I'm not comparing DeMar and Harden. Some posters have argued that the mid range game is totally redundant in the modern NBA. That's why I brought up Harden's shot chart in the play-offs and said that he could've used more of them when the defenses were chasing him off the line.

[dhsilv2]

Make a list of current players that had just ONE 30 point game in a conference final, win or loss, and trust me, that list is short.

Dirk Nowitzki
LeBron James
James Harden
Rajon Rondo
Kyrie Irving
Klay Thompson
Stephen Curry
Kevin Durant
Dwight Howard
Dwyane Wade
Russell Westbrook
Carmelo Anthony
Paul George
Tony Parker
Kyle Lowry
Chris Bosh
Manu Ginobili
Deron Williams
DeMar DeRozan
Kevin Love
Devin Harris
Jeff Teague

22 active players...

[Steelo Green]

DeRozan is also like... pretty old. Harden leapt into Superstardom his first (maybe second year) in Houston when he was 24. I think most NBA players primes are around age 27 so the writing is on the wall.

His teammate has looked best from 27 onwards.

[Doctor MJ]

He's one of the most skilled players in the League in terms of shotmaking ability, footwork & getting to the line, he's also a master in the midrange like Kobe. In terms of getting buckets I can't think of many perimeter players better than him at it.

Yet it feels like something's missing in his game. His advanced stats aren't the best & I feel like he should be averaging 29/30 PPG easy with his talent.

I think the key thing to remember is that Harden wasn't the star prospect on his team in high school. Speaking to one of his coaches back then, he admitted that he never thought Harden would play in the NBA. He emphasize that Harden was absolutely sharp as a tack, on and off the court, but he just wasn't seen to have the body of an NBA player.

So then, the similarities you see between him and DeRozan, to me they are starting from the wrong point. DeRozan was always a top prospect because of his body, and no one ever accused him of being a BBIQ genius, and you're comparing him with someone who was quite the opposite.

As a result the answer to your question is simple to the point it might seem sarcastic:

The only thing keeping DeRozan from superstardom like Harden did, is Harden's brain.

[NashtyNas]

Well I think the thing that's missing is pretty obvious isn't it? He can't make threes

Nor is a good play-maker.. though he has made some slight improvements in that department in this season. He is also a below-average rebounder for a guy of his physical gifts

This. No range, minimal playmaking, below average rebounding leaves you closer to "star" than "superstar."
Both get to the line a ton and operate well in the mid/low range game but Derozan just lacks any semblance of an outside shot which massively hampers his game and his team as a whole.

[BHF]

Mostly because he doesn't put any effort into playing defense. It's painful watching him on D.

On offense he still takes a lot of bad low percentage shots.

That's what annoys raptor fans.

Sent from my C6506 using RealGM mobile app

I understand the defense part, but he's actually pretty good at team d. Just not man to man d. he doesn't take low percentage shots cause he is shooting 51%, so it's a false narrative. If you've been watching him this year he has improved yet again and is making the right passing plays.

No he is not good at team D either.

Try watching him on D for an entire game. I've done it and it's maddening watching him coast around, constantly getting hung up on weak screens, losing his man, slow or nonexistent rotations, and simply not having any defensive intensity whatsoever. His body language and effort is that of someone who just doesn't care about defense.

There was a reason PJ Tucker got in his grill last season and told him to D-up. Demar said "I got you" and actually played solid defense for a few possessions. So he his capable of playing good defence, but the fact that he doesn't tells me he just doesn't give a damn.

Honestly, we needed PJ to stay for just that reason, cuz clearly no one else can motivate Demar to play D.

"Hustle is a skill, if it wasn't, everyone would do it."

Demar does not have the hustle skill in his repertoire.

Sent from my C6506 using RealGM mobile app

I agree with this post 100%