Nikola Jokić and best Bigmen passers of all time

[nomansland]

Cousins is a center too, Jokic was made for the ASG, there is almost no defense in ASGs and his passes are spectacular to watch. Perfect for the ASG. His stats are good enough to be in but his excitement factor is why I want him in.

Just because the event (I'm reluctant to call it a game) was made for a guy like Jokic doesn't mean he deserves the accolade this season. Down the road it's likely but not this year.

You are categorically wrong in this. Jokic is the only reason Denver is in the playoffs. I haven't missed a Nuggets game since Jokic's rookie year. Denver would be a bottom three team if Jokic was not on the team. He has to deal with a coach with crazy schemes and rotations, no real starting point guard and he still puts up numbers. He absolutely deserves to be an All Star.

You must be one of those anti home team fans that every board has.

No, I'm realistic. And I've seen my fair share of Nuggets games this year and over time. It's being a lifelong Nuggets fan that breeds cynicism. If he's carried the team it hasn't been far. Usually if you're going to use that as an argument the team should be playing better than slightly over .500.

It's not to say that he's a bad player, just that George and Paul were more deserving.

[iggymcfrack]

He didn't deserve it.

Maybe if 1 or 2 other guys gets hurt or fakes an injury to pass on the game, he could be next in line. But his play so far this year has been below expectations. He needs to improve his shooting from 3, his conditioning is still sub-par, and he needs to stop whining after every single call that doesn't go his way.

Cousins is a center too, Jokic was made for the ASG, there is almost no defense in ASGs and his passes are spectacular to watch. Perfect for the ASG. His stats are good enough to be in but his excitement factor is why I want him in.

Just because the event (I'm reluctant to call it a game) was made for a guy like Jokic doesn't mean he deserves the accolade this season. Down the road it's likely but not this year.

He’s still 12th in the league in RPM. He’s both much better and much more impactful in every way than LaMarcus Aldridge.

[nomansland]

Cousins is a center too, Jokic was made for the ASG, there is almost no defense in ASGs and his passes are spectacular to watch. Perfect for the ASG. His stats are good enough to be in but his excitement factor is why I want him in.

Just because the event (I'm reluctant to call it a game) was made for a guy like Jokic doesn't mean he deserves the accolade this season. Down the road it's likely but not this year.

He’s still 12th in the league in RPM. He’s both much better and much more impactful in every way than LaMarcus Aldridge.

Aldridge is a major contributor to a much better team. Team records matter in these instances.

I can't believe I'm arguing with non-Nuggets fans over this and I'm not being the homer.

But ok I'm glad you all like Jokic, and I do too.

[Sothron]

Just because the event (I'm reluctant to call it a game) was made for a guy like Jokic doesn't mean he deserves the accolade this season. Down the road it's likely but not this year.

You are categorically wrong in this. Jokic is the only reason Denver is in the playoffs. I haven't missed a Nuggets game since Jokic's rookie year. Denver would be a bottom three team if Jokic was not on the team. He has to deal with a coach with crazy schemes and rotations, no real starting point guard and he still puts up numbers. He absolutely deserves to be an All Star.

You must be one of those anti home team fans that every board has.

No, I'm realistic. And I've seen my fair share of Nuggets games this year and over time. It's being a lifelong Nuggets fan that breeds cynicism. If he's carried the team it hasn't been far. Usually if you're going to use that as an argument the team should be playing better than slightly over .500.

It's not to say that he's a bad player, just that George and Paul were more deserving.

A playoff team being led by one guy, esp. in the WC, is something to give said player props over. He's a more than deserving All Star.

Realistic trying to say a guy with insane metrics on a playoff team with a nutso head coach and no real point guard doesn't deserve an All Star appearance...ok there guy.

[nikster]

You can't compare NBA and FIBA assists anyway, the criteria is way more loose in the NBA.
Sabonis was always an incredible and creative passer but he wasn't used as a point-center like Jokic, he spent most of the time in the post even in his younger days. He was capable of it but that game didn't exist yet, he was like an alien in that era, i think he'd be even more dominant in today's game.

Of course, I can... real reason why in FIBA competition in that time apg stats are reduced compared to NBA is that FIBA match is 40 minutes long, not 48, and in XX century FIBA attack limit is 30 seconds, not 24. It is just an urban legend that there is the significantly big difference between FIBA and NBA criteria what assist is.

Here is a game log of Sarunas Marciulionis, the real playmaker of that Lithuanian team at the same 1992 Olympic tournament, and you will notice the difference.

And Croatian PF Toni Kukoc at that tournament has 6apg in Barcelona OG, so trust me, the problem is not in counting, but simple Sabonis on his prime is brutal and dominant executor in the offense which develops his passing talent lately, during veteran years.

Big difference are score keepers. NBA score keepers are a joke, they are way too generous when it comes to assists.

Is there anything to actually validate that? And even if that were true, wouldnt of Sabonis' stats in the NBA have been inflated as well?

[bizil]

Among centers, he's certainly high up on the chart. For PF's, a lot of those guys had SF type handles and were very athletic. They could create off the dribble better than the centers. So in that realm, u get into guys like KG, Webber, Barkley, Blake, etc. But from a stationary type of position, Jokic is very impressive. U gotta put him up there with Walton, Sabonis, Russ, Wilt, etc. among centers. But comparing him to PF's can be tricky at times though because some of those guys have LEGIT point forward type elements.

[nomansland]

You are categorically wrong in this. Jokic is the only reason Denver is in the playoffs. I haven't missed a Nuggets game since Jokic's rookie year. Denver would be a bottom three team if Jokic was not on the team. He has to deal with a coach with crazy schemes and rotations, no real starting point guard and he still puts up numbers. He absolutely deserves to be an All Star.

You must be one of those anti home team fans that every board has.

No, I'm realistic. And I've seen my fair share of Nuggets games this year and over time. It's being a lifelong Nuggets fan that breeds cynicism. If he's carried the team it hasn't been far. Usually if you're going to use that as an argument the team should be playing better than slightly over .500.

It's not to say that he's a bad player, just that George and Paul were more deserving.

A playoff team being led by one guy, esp. in the WC, is something to give said player props over. He's a more than deserving All Star.

Realistic trying to say a guy with insane metrics on a playoff team with a nutso head coach and no real point guard doesn't deserve an All Star appearance...ok there guy.

The West has been a disappointment this year. That's another dose of realism that some fans don't want to recognize.

And blaming Malone for the problems is just lazy. He's not perfect but under the circumstances not many coaches would make better decisions. Some of those horrible losses to bad teams at home fall squarely on the shoulders of the players for coming out flat and a bit arrogant in underestimating their opponents. That's a whole other discussion though.

[UcanUwill]

Is there anything to actually validate that? And even if that were true, wouldnt of Sabonis' stats in the NBA have been inflated as well?

I believe in NBA.com, you can look up any counted assist of every game, and a lot of those is such a reach. Leigh Ellis from starters talked about in detail, they were discussing and absurd Jokic assists were he gives the ball to his point guard after defensive rebound, point guard dribbles from one side to the other, crosses his guard, makes a lay up, it all takes about 6 seconds, and scorekeepers gives assists to Jokic. Leigh mentions how that happens every day in the NBA, he used to look up most assists of the day for a ''very solid play''.

[Sothron]

No, I'm realistic. And I've seen my fair share of Nuggets games this year and over time. It's being a lifelong Nuggets fan that breeds cynicism. If he's carried the team it hasn't been far. Usually if you're going to use that as an argument the team should be playing better than slightly over .500.

It's not to say that he's a bad player, just that George and Paul were more deserving.

A playoff team being led by one guy, esp. in the WC, is something to give said player props over. He's a more than deserving All Star.

Realistic trying to say a guy with insane metrics on a playoff team with a nutso head coach and no real point guard doesn't deserve an All Star appearance...ok there guy.

The West has been a disappointment this year. That's another dose of realism that some fans don't want to recognize.

And blaming Malone for the problems is just lazy. He's not perfect but under the circumstances not many coaches would make better decisions. Some of those horrible losses to bad teams at home fall squarely on the shoulders of the players for coming out flat and a bit arrogant in underestimating their opponents. That's a whole other discussion though.

So it is Jokic's fault Malone doesn't know how to run stable rotations or sets? It is Jokic's fault that the rest of the players in your words come out flat and arrogant and take other teams for granted?

[nikster]

Is there anything to actually validate that? And even if that were true, wouldnt of Sabonis' stats in the NBA have been inflated as well?

I believe in NBA.com, you can look up any counted assist of every game, and a lot of those is such a reach. Leigh Ellis from starters talked about in detail, they were discussing and absurd Jokic assists were he gives the ball to his point guard after defensive rebound, point guard dribbles from one side to the other, crosses his guard, makes a lay up, it all takes about 6 seconds, and scorekeepers gives assists to Jokic. Leigh mentions how that happens every day in the NBA, he used to look up most assists of the day for a ''very solid play''.

Okay, but he does nothing to define how frequently it occurs, which teams are the worst, which players benefit the most etc... Not to mention, how do you know the same doesn't happen in the Euro leagues of the 90s?

[nomansland]

A playoff team being led by one guy, esp. in the WC, is something to give said player props over. He's a more than deserving All Star.

Realistic trying to say a guy with insane metrics on a playoff team with a nutso head coach and no real point guard doesn't deserve an All Star appearance...ok there guy.

The West has been a disappointment this year. That's another dose of realism that some fans don't want to recognize.

And blaming Malone for the problems is just lazy. He's not perfect but under the circumstances not many coaches would make better decisions. Some of those horrible losses to bad teams at home fall squarely on the shoulders of the players for coming out flat and a bit arrogant in underestimating their opponents. That's a whole other discussion though.

So it is Jokic's fault Malone doesn't know how to run stable rotations or sets? It is Jokic's fault that the rest of the players in your words come out flat and arrogant and take other teams for granted?

See this is one of the idiotic things fans write about Malone. No matter what he does, the fans will say he's wrong. He sticks with the Jokic/Plumlee lineup, therefore he's stubborn and can't adapt. He experiments (sometimes is forced to experiment due to injuries) and he lacks consistency. He goes to an 8-9 man rotation and he's squandering talent and not developing young players. He lets more guys play and then it's that nobody knows their role. It's all a bunch of crap written by people with no knowledge of what happens in practices and team meetings. All these numbskulls on the internet think they know more about coaching in the NBA than actual coaches and it's pathetic.

It doesn't mean the coaches are infallible but jesus christ it's annoying.

And if Jokic comes out flat (which he has), yes it's his fault.

[UcanUwill]

Is there anything to actually validate that? And even if that were true, wouldnt of Sabonis' stats in the NBA have been inflated as well?

I believe in NBA.com, you can look up any counted assist of every game, and a lot of those is such a reach. Leigh Ellis from starters talked about in detail, they were discussing and absurd Jokic assists were he gives the ball to his point guard after defensive rebound, point guard dribbles from one side to the other, crosses his guard, makes a lay up, it all takes about 6 seconds, and scorekeepers gives assists to Jokic. Leigh mentions how that happens every day in the NBA, he used to look up most assists of the day for a ''very solid play''.

Okay, but he does nothing to define how frequently it occurs, which teams are the worst, which players benefit the most etc... Not to mention, how do you know the same doesn't happen in the Euro leagues of the 90s?

Well, I never saw such a reach happen in the European leagues. I think it is common knowledge that its much easier to get assists in the NBA. Ellis mentioned that every day he used to see at least 5-6 assists that really should count as assists even under NBA rules. FIBA rules were very conservative when it comes to assists in general, It slightly changed now, because now they count an assist when assisted man gets fouled and makes a free throw, very good rule by the way. Now we have Euroleague players who averaging 6+ assists per game, Calathes with 8.4 leading Euroleague, to reach such number 10 years ago in the Euroleague would have been incredibly hard.

[Pachinko_]

Read on Twitter

it's the country
go to youtube and type "meanwhile in serbia"

[_Joker]

I think you underselling Jokic a bit. Jokic creates passes that aren't there all the time I think. Like every time I watch Nuggets game or highlights, he pulls off something ridiculous.

I also never like this ''well, he might be in the conversation at the end of his career'' argument, when we aren't talking longevity
based topics. I mean Jokic is great already, if he doesn't improve his passing at all, but just does the same thing for another 10 years. he somehow becomes better passer now? He doesn't in this scenario, but at the same time he does to subjective minds. I understand that longevity is important if you want to be remembered and stand the test of time, but if you are good at something, you are good. We are seeing something special with this guy, I really feel that way.

I don't think I'm underselling him, he can make some great passes and he has a high BBIQ. I was pointing that the video posted was basically a lot of handoffs or obvious passes that were there. There were some good finds in there too that most wouldn't make.

I personally haven't seen enough of him to say that he's ahead of Sabonis because Sabonis was on another level compared to most big men. Can Jokic get there? Sure but i don't believe, IMO, that he's there yet.

How can you say on one hand that you haven't watched him enough, and then on the other make a statement such as you did? Are you just guessing?

Also, that was just one video that obviously doesn't show his full range, but merely some highlights (and hand-offs).

[LuDux1]

Read on Twitter

it's the country
go to youtube and type "meanwhile in serbia"

Meanwhile in Lithuania

[NuggetsWY]

"Best bigmen passers of all time" and nobody has even mentioned a 6'9" guy with over 10,000 assists in a shortened career? What's up with that? Sure, he was called "point guard" but he played all five positions and there have been others mentioned who were 6'9".

Love watching Jokic and think he's a remarkable and unusual talent at center in terms of passing. But can we get some love for Magic Johnson as being on an entirely different level than virtually everyone else that ever played the game? Bigman-wise that is.

I mean the obvious rebuttal is that Magic Johnson wasn't a big man...

Big man is a play style.

Quite right, but he did play center in an NBA championship game - which they won. Plus, some of the others being thrown around in this thread are more like SFs.

[Nuggets_Talk]

Modern day Brad Miller

This

[NO-KG-AI]

Modern day Brad Miller

This

Really? I think he's a substantially more potent passer than Miller ever was.

[Mickey8]

Just because the event (I'm reluctant to call it a game) was made for a guy like Jokic doesn't mean he deserves the accolade this season. Down the road it's likely but not this year.

You are categorically wrong in this. Jokic is the only reason Denver is in the playoffs. I haven't missed a Nuggets game since Jokic's rookie year. Denver would be a bottom three team if Jokic was not on the team. He has to deal with a coach with crazy schemes and rotations, no real starting point guard and he still puts up numbers. He absolutely deserves to be an All Star.

You must be one of those anti home team fans that every board has.

No, I'm realistic. And I've seen my fair share of Nuggets games this year and over time. It's being a lifelong Nuggets fan that breeds cynicism. If he's carried the team it hasn't been far. Usually if you're going to use that as an argument the team should be playing better than slightly over .500.

It's not to say that he's a bad player, just that George and Paul were more deserving.

George and Paul are also playing on the loaded super teams . I think if Jokic was scoring 20 points per game he would have been in the all star game unfortunately , in that sense Malone have screwed Jokic because he changed his role on the offense this season, he cost him all star appearance.

[-TheDocOfDenial]

Wilt led the league in assists the disrespect smh.