Has Lebron always been this whiny dude that doesn't take accountability for himself/failures?

[Zombiesonics]

It’s so crazy to me that he’s calling out guys after behind the scenes orchestrating trades to the get them outta there

Also Lebron is never one to take responsible, anytime he loses in the finals he starts bringing up his kids and how he doesn’t REALLY care.

[LKN]

But yes lebron is becoming increasingly more impatient and bitchy each year.


Truth is trade deadline probably killed this team. Chemistry probably can’t recover.

On the one hand I don't blame him... guy is getting up there in age (basketball wise) and at this stage he can't just shake off injuries and such like he could in the past. He's not getting any younger or better.

On the other hand, I don't think saying this stuff publicly helps at all.... I mean if he wants to win the best thing he could do is bust his ass to make the young guys look as good as possible for potential trades (not saying that's easy.... but it would certainly be more helpful than calling them out indirectly in a passive aggressive fashion).

[Dupp]

It’s funny people are always reaching for a way to undermine his legacy.

Last year it was “ he’s gonna lose in the first round, that tarnishes his legacy”

Then “ he’s gonna lose to a young Celtics team..”

Then “ he’s gonna get swept in the finals”


Now it’s the playoff thing. He’s missed half a huge chunk of the season. Dudes legacy is set in stone.

[Dupp]

But yes lebron is becoming increasingly more impatient and bitchy each year.


Truth is trade deadline probably killed this team. Chemistry probably can’t recover.

On the one hand I don't blame him... guy is getting up there in age (basketball wise) and at this stage he can't just shake off injuries and such like he could in the past. He's not getting any younger or better.

On the other hand, I don't think saying this stuff publicly helps at all.... I mean if he wants to win the best thing he could do is bust his ass to make the young guys look as good as possible for potential trades (not saying that's easy.... but it would certainly be more helpful than calling them out indirectly in a passive aggressive fashion).

Yeah the public stuff is dumb and not very productive.

Although I did like it in Cleveland when he came back and called out Kyrie publicly and we benched him. That whole situation was good imo, even though Kyrie probably held a grudge over that up until recently. He did also talk a lot publicly about how young the team was back the. But that was a lot more positive.

But then he did that fit out tweet which I didn’t like. I’m not the biggest love fan but dudes a great teammate/ team member and done everything to fit in. Maybe lebron was stressing love was going to La with all the rumours.

I guess it kind of depends on the situation but generally a really bad idea, I wouldn’t be saying anything public about these laker players after the trade deadline. He’s already lost the team don’t make it worse.

[clyde21]

You're 100% wrong. Kevin Love and Chris Bosh both had their best TS% when playing with Lebron. Mo Williams was an all-star playing next to Lebron. He shot 42.9% and 43.6% from 3 on 5+ attempts the two years he played with Lebron. He never shot over 38.9% in any other season. Without Lebron he had more seasons under 37% (7) than over (4).

lol...

Kevin Love went from 59 TS% in Minnesota to 56, 55, and 57% in Cleveland the next three years, and it wasn't until his 4th year in Cleveland where he eclipsed that 59% threshold and only played 50 games that season. His PER went from 26 to 18. VORP from 7 to 2. BPM from 8 to 2. WS/48 from 2.24 to .165. Literally all his box scores and advanced metrics plummeted with LeBron.

Chris Bosh average TS% in Toronto was 57.1% and his TS% in Miami was 57.3%. Given that his volume was much higher in Toronto, you can't sit here with a straight face and peddle that he go better with LeBron. His PER, VORP, BPM and WS/48 ALL considerably dropped in Miami too, so I'm not even sure why you're focusing on stat.

No one is buying that snake oil broski.

Durant's PER, VORP, BPM and WS/48 have all dropped since joining the Warriors. Durant's PER this year is 25.0, his lowest since 2011 when he was 22. His WS/48 is at its lowest since 2011. His BPM is at its lowest since 2011. His TS% is at its lowest since 2012. And it's not just this year. His numbers were also worse last year. Does that mean Curry has made him a worse player, broski?

maybe you should take a peak at Durant's PO #s since joining the Warriors vs. with OKC. You know, how his TS% went from 56% to 64% with the Warriors. And Durant's 'drops' are marginal. Bosh's/Love's are substantial.

furthermore, not sure what this has to do with Steph. are you agreeing with me that LeBron doesn't make his teammates better?

[LKN]

It’s funny people are always reaching for a way to undermine his legacy.

Last year it was “ he’s gonna lose in the first round, that tarnishes his legacy”

Then “ he’s gonna lose to a young Celtics team..”

Then “ he’s gonna get swept in the finals”


Now it’s the playoff thing. He’s missed half a huge chunk of the season. Dudes legacy is set in stone.

Also it has nothing to do with Lebron calling other guys out. Like every Lebron thread it's gone off topic and silly.

[Dupp]

Oh I see some people still trying to push the lebron made love worse stuff. Guess we’ll find out how good love is without lebron.

Loves numbers the last two seasons with Cleveland were actually very good and more or less in line with his minny self. One positive to lue was he actually used love unlike blatt who was terrible for love.

But his biggest decline has always been his ability around the rim. Which he lost due to weight loss and injuries.

[thebigbird]

lol...

Kevin Love went from 59 TS% in Minnesota to 56, 55, and 57% in Cleveland the next three years, and it wasn't until his 4th year in Cleveland where he eclipsed that 59% threshold and only played 50 games that season. His PER went from 26 to 18. VORP from 7 to 2. BPM from 8 to 2. WS/48 from 2.24 to .165. Literally all his box scores and advanced metrics plummeted with LeBron.

Chris Bosh average TS% in Toronto was 57.1% and his TS% in Miami was 57.3%. Given that his volume was much higher in Toronto, you can't sit here with a straight face and peddle that he go better with LeBron. His PER, VORP, BPM and WS/48 ALL considerably dropped in Miami too, so I'm not even sure why you're focusing on stat.

No one is buying that snake oil broski.

Durant's PER, VORP, BPM and WS/48 have all dropped since joining the Warriors. Durant's PER this year is 25.0, his lowest since 2011 when he was 22. His WS/48 is at its lowest since 2011. His BPM is at its lowest since 2011. His TS% is at its lowest since 2012. And it's not just this year. His numbers were also worse last year. Does that mean Curry has made him a worse player, broski?

maybe you should take a peak at Durant's PO #s since joining the Warriors vs. with OKC. You know, how his TS% went from 56% to 64% with the Warriors. And Durant's 'drops' are marginal. Bosh's/Love's are substantial.

furthermore, not sure what this has to do with Steph. are you agreeing with me that LeBron doesn't make his teammates better?

Well, you see, we can't compare Kevin Love's playoff numbers before Lebron and with Lebron because he doesn't have any before Lebron.

And no, I'm bringing up Curry to illustrate that it's silly to point to a few numbers as proof that a guy made players worse. During the past two seasons, Durant has had his two worst PERs in 8 years, his two worst WS/48 in 8 years, and his two worst BPMs in 7 years. So, by your criteria, Curry made Durant worse.

[Cavsfansince84]

Lebron did work very very hard, on his own game. But he's always worked out of a desire to amaze other people, I don't think he ever had a real challenge to meet or mountain to climb when he was young in the way that Jordan or even Kareem did (Kareem played against guys who were much older when he was a kid so he didn't have a size advantage).

And Lebron always saw his efforts lead to success because he was so much more talented than everyone else. He doesn't really know what to do when his efforts run into a wall and he defaults to trying to bully through it instead of gritting his teeth, regrouping, not giving up etc.

He always tries to meet difficulty with overwhelming force instead of persistence.

I don't know why you implied that no one criticized Kobe for how he related to teammates. I have no idea where you got that impression.

My point is overall I think LeBron is a pretty good teammate and leader. People just focus on things he says to the media and don't see the rest. He was leading teams to better and better records as a 20-24 yr old. That was with a pretty much garbage roster he led them from 17 wins to 66 in a space of 6 years. You don't do that when your head coach is Mike Brown without being a great leader. A lot of people just get caught up in what he says in interviews or on social media. There's more to him and his leadership style than just that.

[clyde21]

Durant's PER, VORP, BPM and WS/48 have all dropped since joining the Warriors. Durant's PER this year is 25.0, his lowest since 2011 when he was 22. His WS/48 is at its lowest since 2011. His BPM is at its lowest since 2011. His TS% is at its lowest since 2012. And it's not just this year. His numbers were also worse last year. Does that mean Curry has made him a worse player, broski?

maybe you should take a peak at Durant's PO #s since joining the Warriors vs. with OKC. You know, how his TS% went from 56% to 64% with the Warriors. And Durant's 'drops' are marginal. Bosh's/Love's are substantial.

furthermore, not sure what this has to do with Steph. are you agreeing with me that LeBron doesn't make his teammates better?

Well, you see, we can't compare Kevin Love's playoff numbers before Lebron and with Lebron because he doesn't have any before Lebron. And no, I'm bringing up Curry to illustrate that it's silly to point to a few numbers as proof that a guy made players worse. During the past two seasons, Durant has had his two worst PERs in 8 years, his two worst WS/48 in 8 years, and his two worst BPMs in 7 years. So, by your criteria, Curry made Durant worse.

and...? you're sitting here talking about Durant dropping from 28 PER to 26 PER with the Warriors as if that's any marker for regression, but ignoring the fact that Love dropped from 25 to 19 PER with LeBron?

okay, if I say Curry made Durant worse, are you ready to concede that LeBron doesn't make anyone better?

[thebigbird]

maybe you should take a peak at Durant's PO #s since joining the Warriors vs. with OKC. You know, how his TS% went from 56% to 64% with the Warriors. And Durant's 'drops' are marginal. Bosh's/Love's are substantial.

furthermore, not sure what this has to do with Steph. are you agreeing with me that LeBron doesn't make his teammates better?

Well, you see, we can't compare Kevin Love's playoff numbers before Lebron and with Lebron because he doesn't have any before Lebron. And no, I'm bringing up Curry to illustrate that it's silly to point to a few numbers as proof that a guy made players worse. During the past two seasons, Durant has had his two worst PERs in 8 years, his two worst WS/48 in 8 years, and his two worst BPMs in 7 years. So, by your criteria, Curry made Durant worse.

and...? you're sitting here talking about Durant dropping from 28 PER to 26 PER with the Warriors as if that's any marker for regression, but ignoring the fact that Love dropped from 25 to 19 PER with LeBron?

okay, if I say Curry made Durant worse, are you ready to concede that LeBron doesn't make anyone better?

The drops for Bosh were not substantial. In 7 years with Toronto, Bosh had a 21.3 PER. With Lebron he had 19.4, 18.9, 20.0, 19.0. With Toronto, Bosh had .158 WS/48. With LeBron, he had .177, .165, .175, .152. With Toronto, he had a 57.1 TS%. With Lebron, he had 56.9%, 55.1%, 59.2% and 59.7%. The numbers are just not there to support your "substantial drop" argument for Bosh.

And no, I'm not. It's as silly to argue that Curry didn't make Durant better as it is to argue that Lebron doesn't make players better.

[clyde21]

Well, you see, we can't compare Kevin Love's playoff numbers before Lebron and with Lebron because he doesn't have any before Lebron. And no, I'm bringing up Curry to illustrate that it's silly to point to a few numbers as proof that a guy made players worse. During the past two seasons, Durant has had his two worst PERs in 8 years, his two worst WS/48 in 8 years, and his two worst BPMs in 7 years. So, by your criteria, Curry made Durant worse.

and...? you're sitting here talking about Durant dropping from 28 PER to 26 PER with the Warriors as if that's any marker for regression, but ignoring the fact that Love dropped from 25 to 19 PER with LeBron?

okay, if I say Curry made Durant worse, are you ready to concede that LeBron doesn't make anyone better?

The drops for Bosh were not substantial. In 7 years with Toronto, Bosh had a 21.3 PER. With Lebron he had 19.4, 18.9, 20.0, 19.0. With Toronto, Bosh had .158 WS/48. With LeBron, he had .177, .165, .175, .152. With Toronto, he had a 57.1 TS%. With Lebron, he had 56.9%, 55.1%, 59.2% and 59.7%. The numbers are just not there to support your "substantial drop" argument for Bosh.

And no, I'm not. It's as silly to argue that Curry didn't make Durant better as it is to argue that Lebron doesn't make players better.

i don't know what to tell you bro, I gave you all the stats. Bosh/Love's stats, both box AND advanced, substantially dropped when they joined LeBron. part of the is obviously a new role, but idea that he makes players better individually is a myth and has never been substantiated. only type of player he makes better are spot-up shooters, that's about it.

[thebigbird]

maybe you should take a peak at Durant's PO #s since joining the Warriors vs. with OKC. You know, how his TS% went from 56% to 64% with the Warriors. And Durant's 'drops' are marginal. Bosh's/Love's are substantial.

furthermore, not sure what this has to do with Steph. are you agreeing with me that LeBron doesn't make his teammates better?

Well, you see, we can't compare Kevin Love's playoff numbers before Lebron and with Lebron because he doesn't have any before Lebron. And no, I'm bringing up Curry to illustrate that it's silly to point to a few numbers as proof that a guy made players worse. During the past two seasons, Durant has had his two worst PERs in 8 years, his two worst WS/48 in 8 years, and his two worst BPMs in 7 years. So, by your criteria, Curry made Durant worse.

and...? you're sitting here talking about Durant dropping from 28 PER to 26 PER with the Warriors as if that's any marker for regression, but ignoring the fact that Love dropped from 25 to 19 PER with LeBron?

okay, if I say Curry made Durant worse, are you ready to concede that LeBron doesn't make anyone better?

Also, you're being incredibly misleading about Love's stats. Why the dishonesty? Love had a 25 PER twice in six seasons with Minnesota. In 12/13 he had a 17.9 PER. Love's Minnesota PER was 23.2. In four years with Lebron, he had 18.8, 19.0, 21.1 and 22.4. His TS% with Minnesota was 56.6%. His TS% with Lebron was 56.2%, 55.3%, 57.3% and 61.4%. His WS/48 with Minnesota was .189. With Lebron, he had .165, .169, .163, .185.

His numbers went down, but not nearly as much as you tried making it seem. The decreases are consistent with going from a #1 option to a 3rd option.

[tidho]

Why is he always throwing his team under the bus? Is he trying to sound smart or better for the cameras/media? How come he never takes blame/accountability for his own play or his own lack of defense and poor leadership.

When he's doing good or setting records, he is the first person that posts on IG patting his back. Or when his team is winning "this is our squad and I love them". Then literally the next day he calls his teammates losers that don't know how to win games.

How can any teammate want to play for him? This is why Kawhi, Durant, PG don't want to play with him and will go somewhere that there is no Lebron. He literally can't go 1 loss without throwing the whole team under the bus.

Welcome to Cleveland! ...oh wait, the drama is yours now.

Yes this what he's always been like.

[thebigbird]

and...? you're sitting here talking about Durant dropping from 28 PER to 26 PER with the Warriors as if that's any marker for regression, but ignoring the fact that Love dropped from 25 to 19 PER with LeBron?

okay, if I say Curry made Durant worse, are you ready to concede that LeBron doesn't make anyone better?

The drops for Bosh were not substantial. In 7 years with Toronto, Bosh had a 21.3 PER. With Lebron he had 19.4, 18.9, 20.0, 19.0. With Toronto, Bosh had .158 WS/48. With LeBron, he had .177, .165, .175, .152. With Toronto, he had a 57.1 TS%. With Lebron, he had 56.9%, 55.1%, 59.2% and 59.7%. The numbers are just not there to support your "substantial drop" argument for Bosh.

And no, I'm not. It's as silly to argue that Curry didn't make Durant better as it is to argue that Lebron doesn't make players better.

i don't know what to tell you bro, I gave you all the stats. Bosh/Love's stats, both box AND advanced, substantially dropped when they joined LeBron. part of the is obviously a new role, but idea that he makes players better individually is a myth and has never been substantiated. only type of player he makes better are spot-up shooters, that's about it.

I literally just showed you that the drops in advanced numbers were not substantial. But don't let the facts get in the way of a narrative.

Curry, Klay Thompson and Draymond Green's numbers have gotten worse since Durant joined the Warriors. Is he making them worse?

[FlatearthZorro]

Why is he always throwing his team under the bus? Is he trying to sound smart or better for the cameras/media? How come he never takes blame/accountability for his own play or his own lack of defense and poor leadership.

When he's doing good or setting records, he is the first person that posts on IG patting his back. Or when his team is winning "this is our squad and I love them". Then literally the next day he calls his teammates losers that don't know how to win games.

How can any teammate want to play for him? This is why Kawhi, Durant, PG don't want to play with him and will go somewhere that there is no Lebron. He literally can't go 1 loss without throwing the whole team under the bus.

Have you been watching the NBA? LBJ has always been like that. Last season I remember him lashing out at Love after literally being blown by the man he needs to cover.

[Buckeye-NBAFan]

Lebron is the best player on the planet and has been to the NBA finals 8 straight seasons.

The question should be, why is Lebron to blame for the Lakers failures this season when a) the team has been much better when he’s in the lineup and b) all he’s done throughout his career is win at a high level?

He made the Finals out of the EC though. I give Kobe & TD more credit for making the Finals out of the WC 7 & 6 times...while winning it 5 times. Lebron's has a losing record in the playoffs against WC teams.

Imagine if Duncan signed with Orlando to partner with Grant Hill or Kobe got the trade to Chicago that he wanted to team up with Ben Wallace.

Or imagine if either got drafted by Cleveland and to pair with Mo Williams instead of Shaq, Gasol, Parker, Manu.

[clyde21]

The drops for Bosh were not substantial. In 7 years with Toronto, Bosh had a 21.3 PER. With Lebron he had 19.4, 18.9, 20.0, 19.0. With Toronto, Bosh had .158 WS/48. With LeBron, he had .177, .165, .175, .152. With Toronto, he had a 57.1 TS%. With Lebron, he had 56.9%, 55.1%, 59.2% and 59.7%. The numbers are just not there to support your "substantial drop" argument for Bosh.

And no, I'm not. It's as silly to argue that Curry didn't make Durant better as it is to argue that Lebron doesn't make players better.

i don't know what to tell you bro, I gave you all the stats. Bosh/Love's stats, both box AND advanced, substantially dropped when they joined LeBron. part of the is obviously a new role, but idea that he makes players better individually is a myth and has never been substantiated. only type of player he makes better are spot-up shooters, that's about it.

I literally just showed you that the drops in advanced numbers were not substantial. But don't let the facts get in the way of a narrative.

except they are substantial?

take Love:

last 4 years in Minny: 25 PER, 57.5 TS%, 14.7 VORP, 5.1 BPM, .216 WS/48

last 4 years in Cle pre 2019: 20 PER, 57.3 TS%, 7.9 VORP, 1.7 BPM, .169 WS/48

almost substantial drops in advanced metrics across the board. only thing similar is the TS%, and Love even then posting the same TS% on much lower usage and a lesser role isn't impressive at all.

the same thing for Bosh, and almost all of LeBron's teammates.

you *can* make an argument that LeBron doesn't do anything for his teammates, not make them worse or better, but the myth that he makes everyone better is just that: a myth.

in fact, I can also make an argument the circus that he brings along with him everywhere he goes creates a toxic situation for everyone involved especially his teammates just from a sanity and comfort standpoint.

[thebigbird]

i don't know what to tell you bro, I gave you all the stats. Bosh/Love's stats, both box AND advanced, substantially dropped when they joined LeBron. part of the is obviously a new role, but idea that he makes players better individually is a myth and has never been substantiated. only type of player he makes better are spot-up shooters, that's about it.

I literally just showed you that the drops in advanced numbers were not substantial. But don't let the facts get in the way of a narrative.

except they are substantial?

take Love:

last 4 years in Minny: 25 PER, 57.5 TS%, 14.7 VORP, 5.1 BPM, .216 WS/48

last 4 years in Cle pre 2019: 20 PER, 57.3 TS%, 7.9 VORP, 1.7 BPM, .169 WS/48

almost substantial drops in advanced metrics across the board. only thing similar is the TS%, and Love even then posting the same TS% on much lower usage and a lesser role isn't impressive at all.

the same thing for Bosh, and almost all of LeBron's teammates.

you *can* make an argument that LeBron doesn't do anything for his teammates, not make them worse or better, but the myth that he makes everyone better is just that: a myth.

You don't get to just cut out the years you don't want to include. Bosh's numbers didn't substantially decrease. Wade and Irving's numbers also did not get worse while playing with Lebron. The fact that you can point to a player like Curry, who the average fan thinks makes his teammates better, and show that the same drop happens to stars that join up with him, it shows that just looking at the numbers doesn't tell you if a player makes others better.

[G35]

Lebron is the best player on the planet and has been to the NBA finals 8 straight seasons.

The question should be, why is Lebron to blame for the Lakers failures this season when a) the team has been much better when he’s in the lineup and b) all he’s done throughout his career is win at a high level?

Shhh dont use logic.

Smh....

One thing I have seen from leadership skills:

Praise in public, chastise in private

Lebron's skills are not in question...its his leadership......