Kobe Bryant Breaks Down James Harden's Game

[dhsilv2]

The stats of the team that Kobe contributed to. You think the Lakers would with VC instead of Kobe? With T-Mac who could never make it out of the first round? With Ray Allen? Those were his comparables. People love talking hypotheticals but plug in your numbers and say what you want but those guys weren't built like Kobe. At the end of the day Kobe's advanced numbers might not say he's uber-elite, but his success speaks for itself and not many can compare to his produced results.

Don't twist my words, I wasn't saying there are only a handful of players that had better careers than Kobe either.

Kobe has clearly better stats than all of those guys. Those aren't guys that anyone reasonably would claim were better than Kobe. I mean if you think anyone here is taking VC over Kobe, you're crazy. Peak Tmac over Kobe is a common comment but that's one freaky great 2003 season.

Alright not sure where this thread is going, I have nothing to say to this except we can debate hypotheticals all we want but fact is Kobe's results speaks for itself. People here can say he's overrated but not many people will ever achieve the personal or team success he's had and that can't ever be taken away with arguments. No need to reply.

The question is if he's a top 5 or top 15 player. In both cases that's not many players...

[kdot99]

You sound like someone whose never played basketball in his life. Keep reading your books, go study your statistical variations in geometric localities and don't watch any games, you lame.

can't tell if serious....

Me or the guy that said Kobe's "never been a top 250 player in the league at any point in his career"? Lol.

Alright I'm really done now. No need to reply, seriously.

[dhsilv2]

You sound like someone whose never played basketball in his life. Keep reading your books, go study your statistical variations in geometric localities and don't watch any games, you lame.

can't tell if serious....

Me or the guy that said Kobe's "never been a top 250 player in the league at any point in his career"? Lol.

Alright I'm really done now. No need to reply, seriously.

The guy (you) who thought the other guy was being serious when he's talking about higgs-boson (which is the "god particle" they're trying to find at CERNS) and other completely random non statistical comments in a clearly troll/parody post.

[XxIronChainzxX]

The stats of the team that Kobe contributed to. You think the Lakers would with VC instead of Kobe? With T-Mac who could never make it out of the first round? With Ray Allen? Those were his comparables. People love talking hypotheticals but plug in your numbers and say what you want but those guys weren't built like Kobe. At the end of the day Kobe's advanced numbers might not say he's uber-elite, but his success speaks for itself and not many can compare to his produced results.

Don't twist my words, I wasn't saying there are only a handful of players that had better careers than Kobe either.

Kobe has clearly better stats than all of those guys. Those aren't guys that anyone reasonably would claim were better than Kobe. I mean if you think anyone here is taking VC over Kobe, you're crazy. Peak Tmac over Kobe is a common comment but that's one freaky great 2003 season.

Alright not sure where this thread is going, I have nothing to say to this except we can debate hypotheticals all we want but fact is Kobe's results speaks for itself. People here can say he's overrated but not many people will ever achieve the personal or team success he's had and that can't ever be taken away with arguments. No need to reply.

In fact, there’s probably only 10-15 guys in NBA history who could do better.

It’s almost like Kobe is top 10-15 all time.

[G35]

So KD is a better player in 2017 than he was in 2016?

Teams win. Not individual players. If a guy can go 6-24 in a deciding game and be seen better than a guy who averages 30+ in a losing effort in the finals, there's something wrong with your analysis.

Did anyone read this thread "Most overrated or least impressive NBA champion"

I follow the school of thought that all championships are created equal. A team can only beat the teams it plays. If I were forced to answer the question, though, it would definitely be the '02 Lakers.

I would say that every team that wins a title is equally impressive in my book. Part of a dynasty or not, each team defeated every opponent put in front of them in order to win the championship. And of course, no championship team played the same opponents the previous or future champion did.

These are two best comments in the thread. Every team had their own individual challenges in their respective years and no one can duplicate what they had to go through.

Basically, you do what you have to do to get the job done.

Now, an example I was taught in a leadership class was humans only do what we have to do to accomplish a task.

So the example he made was when we are walking around town and you come to a crosswalk and you walk to the other side and there is a curb you have to step up to.

The curb is say eight inches high.

Is it more impressive to jump three feet in the air or to just barely clear the curb by raising your foot 8 1/4 inches.

You would say its more impressive to jump three feet in the air....look what I just did! I jumped 3ft in the air to clear an 8 inch curb.

While I say humans do whatever it takes to accomplish the task, anything more is meaningless.

If your boy Lebron goes 40/10/10 in the finals and loses is that impressive?

35/8/8 and wins in the finals?

26/10/12 and loses in the finals?

How about 18/15/17 in a tied series?

Maybe 47/26/19 in a series loss?

To me the it doesn't matter what you do in a loss, you can put historical numbers, but if you lose you did not clear the curb. You did not meet the objective.

Yes you win and lose as a team, but you also do whatever it takes to win. If the star has to produce more stats in a win, great, do it. If a star does not have to produce more in a win, great, it does not matter.

The 2007 finals is a perfect example. Tim Duncan was the best player on that court. He could have dominated that series if he chose to. But he did not. He deferred to Tony Parker and played a supporting role in the teams victory...the Spurs swept Lebron and the Cavs and kept it moving.

But HATERS will say, oh that was not impressive...Duncan did not put up historical numbers so it was more about his team. He had too much help. Lebron was the real hero, because he had no help and he had to do everything. So so so lets give Lebron more credit for getting swept in the finals.

Chasing stats do not make you a better player...you can be a better player and put up lesser stats than you have previously because you know how to play with your teammates better. But that goes completely over Lebron-stans heads because they only know how to Google Lebron's stats. Anyone else on the team is an afterthought......

None of this really matters because Kobe didnt win. The Lakers won. Team success and individual play arent correlated linearly. When rating guys individually, as in this thread, how they play individually is more important than how their teams did. The heat, for example, had a legit chance of beating the Mavs even with Lebron's chit play. If they had won, it wouldnt excuse Lebron's choke in the least. Nobody should think any worse/better of how Lebron played in the 2011 series if the Heat had won. Just like i dont think any better of some of Kobe's title runs than i do of other guys losing runs.

That is wrong wrong wrong and more wrong. It does not get more wrong than that.

Why are the Lakers doing so poorly this year?

Well Lebron defenders will say the TEAM was poorly constructed. We have years of evidence that Lebron-teams perform better when he has certain types of players surrounding him.

When Lebron has the ball at the end of games and he makes "the right basketball play" by passing to the open guy in the corner and the guy misses the shot, do you lose as a team then? Does everyone have equal blame for the loss? Or do you hear that Lebron did everything you could do in that situation, what more could you ask him to do?

Take the damn shot and make it. You want to be the best, you want elevate yourself above others, then produce results. Stop blaming teammates. Stop saying I did my part.

If Lebron is such a tier above, and his individual play is not affected by his teammates then why doesn't he just score all the points and get all the rebounds and make all the assists. Lebron gets his numbers, but he gets them in a way that limits his teams' ceiling.

Its a team sport, you cannot separate the individual from the team. They are interlinked.

That's like saying one parent is better than another parent. Do you think Steph Curry's Mom or Dad had more influence on how he turned out? Do you really think you can separate the influence each had on his upbringing? Its a fluid situation.

This is why pro sports is on the decline because we are separating the individual from the team.

When I was growing up I really underestimated Jordan and what it took to do what he did. It wasn't until I started working around people who think individually that I realized how true his teamwork wins championships statement was.....

[G-Mamba]

There is only one thing that is romanticized and that is the winning. If Kobe was averaging 50/10/10 and losing I would say he is a loser that scores a lot of points.

The only thing that makes stats relevant is whether you win the game or not. Losing is not romanticized.

Jerry West averaged 46 ppg in the finals and was awarded the only FMVP for a player on a losing team and he says he would rather have won the series than score all those points.

Winning applies context to stats.

You can't say if you do X then you will win the game because there are too many variables within a game.......

Judging individual greatness by team success is beyond illogical. No player has ever won a championship by himself. LeBron averaged 33.6/12/10 on 63 TS% in 2017 but lost because he came up against a better team. Was he a worse player in the 2017 finals than 15.6/4.6/4.2 on 41.1 TS% Kobe in 2000 because LeBron's team lost and Kobe's team won? That doesn't even begin to make sense.

Don't try talking any sort of logic to the Kobe-ites, you'd have more fun and be less frustrated taking a hammer and beating your self over the head for the rest of the day.

Thats funny how about we put context because everyone forgets the fact he got Jalen Rose.. so he had to leave half way through the game which affected his stats. He was playing on bad ankle. But lets not forget they don't win the series without Kobe taking over when Shaq got fouled out in the 4th. I backed up every statement with stats and facts. I'm not here to tell you Kobe is better than Lebron even if I believe that. I'm here to tell you to stop disrespecting Kobe. Lebron had great numbers gets spurs... when he got his but whooped by an old spurs team. There is guy in this thread saying Kobe isn't even top 150 player cause of advance stats lol. There was a guy arguing Kawhi is better than Kobe few weeks ago cause of advance stats. Kobe just did whatever it takes to win. HIs rebounds ast steals and blks go up in close out games even if his fg goes down. Lebron James shot 38 from fg in the game 7 of golden state and they still won right ? Why because he did other things as well. Come on guys stop with illogical oh kobe stan stuff. Why not 'go on with Kobe Thread without disrespecting him. This was suppose to be about his break down not his game.

[laronprofit9]

Did anyone in this thread actually watch the video? I don't get how certain threads get locked, but something like this is just allowed to continue that is completely off topic

[OdomFan]

What about 5 rings and 2 NBA Final MVP's?

So wait, somebody else was the Finals MVP the other 3 times?!? Holy riding coattails Batman!

You're kidding yourself if you don't think Kobe wasn't a huge reason the Lakers won.

Watch on YouTube

Were you alive when this happened? Where's Shaq in overtime? Oh that's right he fouled out. Who won? The Lakers.

They will always ignore these facts and just remember Shaq winning the 3 finals MVPs. Nevermind that it was Kobe who dished the ball to Shaq for many of the buckets he got in those Finals.

and nevermind that Shaq never once faced a legit star center in any finals as a Laker.

[thebigbird]

So wait, somebody else was the Finals MVP the other 3 times?!? Holy riding coattails Batman!

You're kidding yourself if you don't think Kobe wasn't a huge reason the Lakers won.

Watch on YouTube

Were you alive when this happened? Where's Shaq in overtime? Oh that's right he fouled out. Who won? The Lakers.

They will always ignore these facts and just remember Shaq winning the 3 finals MVPs. Nevermind that it was Kobe who dished the ball to Shaq for many of the buckets he got in those Finals.

and nevermind that Shaq never once faced a legit star center in any finals as a Laker.

He really killed it that series with his 41.1 TS%.

[G-Mamba]

You're kidding yourself if you don't think Kobe wasn't a huge reason the Lakers won.

Watch on YouTube

Were you alive when this happened? Where's Shaq in overtime? Oh that's right he fouled out. Who won? The Lakers.

They will always ignore these facts and just remember Shaq winning the 3 finals MVPs. Nevermind that it was Kobe who dished the ball to Shaq for many of the buckets he got in those Finals.

and nevermind that Shaq never once faced a legit star center in any finals as a Laker.

He really killed it that series with his 41.1 TS%.

Brother again trying ignore the fact he was playing on bad ankle... which took him out in game 3.. which effected his stats. He played 9 mins in the second... and thats age 20 year old Kobe.

Western Conference Finals 2000
.439 .522 .725 43.1 20.4 4.9 5.9 1.6 2.1 TS .552 Higher than Shaq btw..

Semi

.452 .154 .730 37.2 21.0 3.8 3.4 2.0 1.4 TS ,524

First Round 2000

.496 .333 .778 38.6 27.8 4.4 3.6 1.2 0.6 TS 557 again higher than Shaq...

FInals and Phoniex was only time Shaq had higher TS than Kobe. Kobe had higher TS than Shaq against Kings and Blazers who were the tougher teams. So yes before his rolled ankle... he was killing it my friend according to your TS.

[OdomFan]

You're kidding yourself if you don't think Kobe wasn't a huge reason the Lakers won.

Watch on YouTube

Were you alive when this happened? Where's Shaq in overtime? Oh that's right he fouled out. Who won? The Lakers.

They will always ignore these facts and just remember Shaq winning the 3 finals MVPs. Nevermind that it was Kobe who dished the ball to Shaq for many of the buckets he got in those Finals.

and nevermind that Shaq never once faced a legit star center in any finals as a Laker.

He really killed it that series with his 41.1 TS%.

way to add nothing to the conversation.

[thebigbird]

They will always ignore these facts and just remember Shaq winning the 3 finals MVPs. Nevermind that it was Kobe who dished the ball to Shaq for many of the buckets he got in those Finals.

and nevermind that Shaq never once faced a legit star center in any finals as a Laker.

He really killed it that series with his 41.1 TS%.

way to add nothing to the conversation.

Not much left to say. Kobe is overrated. /thread

[OdomFan]

He really killed it that series with his 41.1 TS%.

way to add nothing to the conversation.

Not much left to say. Kobe is overrated. /thread

nah

[Lalouie]

Tim Duncan is one of the most celebrated and love universally (and rightfully so and is arguably a GOAT candidate) while FS1, Bron stans, the analytics fans all dislike Kobe to push a narrative or prop up their favourite player when they are feeling insecure.

It's all about agendas. Funny how people said KD's and Steph rings don't count cause they teamed up and ruined the league but now apparently, they surpassed Kobe or will surpass him with those same accolades that they call meaningless.

People would rather watch the box scores and punch in numbers and move goalposts than actually watch the game of basketball.

Nothing about the "eye test" is reliable because it's completely subjective. People only see what they want to see. Kobe stans' romanticized memories of his play aren't accurate recollections of his career. That's why people look at the numbers. The numbers say one thing about Kobe, the romanticized memories say another. I wonder which is more accurate...

There is only one thing that is romanticized and that is the winning. If Kobe was averaging 50/10/10 and losing I would say he is a loser that scores a lot of points.

The only thing that makes stats relevant is whether you win the game or not. Losing is not romanticized.

Jerry West averaged 46 ppg in the finals and was awarded the only FMVP for a player on a losing team and he says he would rather have won the series than score all those points.

Winning applies context to stats.

You can't say if you do X then you will win the game because there are too many variables within a game.......

inevitably the difference is one team has MORE better players than the other and the tradeoff is if the stat leader had better teammates his numbers would go down but the wins would go up. how do you resolve that?

well....you CAN'T. they are almost different states of being. kd is no better now than he was at okc - he just changed teams ummm to a BETTER team to be specific. you play with lesser teammates, then you assume more responsibility. that's the inherent dynamic of a team sport. what are we talking about here. we are talking about LEADERS, so the criteria should be "can they lead". kyrie is an example of one who can't. harden can. cp3 can. westbrook can. i still don't know if kd can. mitchell can. butler can't.

[J-Wolves]

How many SGs in NBA history apart from Jordan are better than Kobe?
That is why Kobe is rated so highly not the fact that countless bigmen are better than him. The people that rank Kobe higher than someone like Duncan are just delusional.

People cant stand the fake news that he was clutch - 40 out of 151 game winning shots at 26.4% is Nike and ESPN hyped black mamba clutch propaganda.

[HeadtopChunes]

Watch on YouTube

[RIP Kobe]

He really killed it that series with his 41.1 TS%.

way to add nothing to the conversation.

Not much left to say. Kobe is underrated. /thread

fixed..

[kamby12]

Puts some context those stats lol Clutch isn't define by the game winning shots.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/6lhlcj/kobe_vs_lebron_in_clutch_situations/

In the playoffs last 2 mins with game decided by 3 points

Kobe is 40/96 42& fg 85%ft

Lebron is 40/ 106 38% fg 73%FT

In the finals last 2 mins decide by 3 points

Kobe : 10/20 50 fg 80% ft

Lebron 4/23 17% fg 71% ft

Finals Last 5 mins decided by 5 pts

Kobe : 28/63 44% fg

Lebron : 17/62 27% fg

In the playoffs Kobe is way more clutch than Lebron but according to other stats Lebron is better at hitting game winners. There is many ways to weigh a clutch player.

Kobe's elimination game stats are terrible. LeBron's are the best ever. It doesn't get more clutch than performing well when facing elimination.

Kobe in his final games of his championship averaged

26pts 9.4 boards 5.2 ast 1.6 blks 1.6 steals 38%fg 40% from 3 85%ft 5 championship 2 finals mvp


33pt 11 board 9.3 ast 1.6 blks 1.6 steals 45fg 33 from 3 88% ft 3 championship 3 finals mvp

Best ever ? shooting 45 from the field when most of his shots are in the paint compare to the jump shooting Kobe Bryant. Great players are great because even if their shots arent going they will find a way to win. Btw Lebron is so clutch his team is 3-6 in the finals. Even if we take away 07 spurs and 2015 2017 and 2018 warriors mrsall time best closeout performer is 3-2 in the finals.. Other than the 2015 and 2007 he has always had 2 other allstars with deep shooting team. The excuses are crazy for Lebron. I don't even want to say this because Lebron is all-time great player but its just people have to put down Kobe in order to pump up Lebron which is not right. Btw no David or Karl are not even close to Tim Duncan lol

Idk where you got those Kobe finals numbers from I’m getting 25.1- 5.6- 5.1 in the finals. And his last 5 game 7s he’s at 21.6 ppg was on 37% while lebron game 7s at 34.4ppg on 49%

[Baski]

because he was so much better offensively than his efficiency showed. His PER numbers are in line with the profile of very good all-star player while his RAPM depicted him as an MVP caliber player during his best years, maybe not the best but certainly top 5.
Aside from Lebron, KG, Duncan he was up there with anybody.

He was top 5 in PER fairly often, peaking 3rd. 10 times in 11 year he was top 10 in PER. PER painted him as an MVP candidate just not a strong one.

Meanwhile RAPM seems to lower his value. Season and RAPM ranking. So again at his peak an MVP candidate but not a strong one, just seems to think less of his early years (which I don't really fully understand).

03 18th
04 55
05 123
06 6
07 8
08 6
09 5
10 4
11 32
12 (NPI) 55

aside from his 06 season (where he went full westbrook mode), his PER seasons between 08-10, for example, don't do him justice.
Take for example '09,he didn't make the top 5 in either PER, WS, WS/48 and BPM (he was 5th in OBPM) despite these metrics often favouring great offensive players.
People see these numbers and compare them with today's box score inflation: even though we're comparing different "eras" his impact was not worse than HArden's, Durant's, Dirk's.
I would say, this phenomenon (PER underrrating Kobe) is more marked when you compare him with players accross eras I have to say.

In conclusion: I appreciated Kobe thanks to RAPM and also +/- and on-off (because I thought he was way overrated) but I probably don't represent the majority in this regard.

Wait a minute. Doesn't the fact that his rank in these box score stats was never the best imply he wouldn't in today's game either? Why does that underrate him when his contemporaries in the same league and seasons did better there? I'm lost how "inflation" would make any difference to his performance in these stats if we're looking at ranking

[Baski]

Watching LeBron this season has been a real eye opener in terms of stat inflation and analytics. Kobe’s advanced and regular stats would be so much better if all he did was aggressively go after uncontested defensive rebs and bring up the ball repeatedly and just toss it to players cutting or curling off screens for assists. Kobe was also more of a gunner than a lot of player affecting his shooting percentage but that unpredictably is also what made him so dangerous and warped defenses.

This kind of stuff is very disrespectful. Next time you pop in a thread with one of those "The hatred for Kobe on this board is insane" posts, rememeber that it's because of crap like this.