Pascal Siakam Megathread - All Siakam-centric topics will be merged into this one

Grape · Post #101 » by **Grape** » Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:30 am

Raps in 4 wrote:
Grape wrote:There's a lot of bias by Raptors fans here for sure, plus a lot of recency bias because he's been playing so well the past 5 games (which probably matters even more), all in all there's a LOT of bias.

That being said at the end of the day, I gotta say Siakam is probably somewhere around if not exactly the 30th best player in the league. Fast forward to the start of next season though? There likely isn't 30 players I'd take before him.

There is no bias. The dude is elite.

Regular season: 17/7/3 on 63% TS (21% USG).
Playoffs: 23/8/3 on 60% TS (25% USG)
4.17 RPM

There's almost always bias when you see a bunch of fans of a certain team think much higher of the skills of their players much more so than fans of opposition.

I do think Siakam again, is likely a top 30 player right now. But reading this thread you really saying you can't see the bias?

Raps in 4 · Post #102 » by **Raps in 4** » Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:51 am

Grape wrote:
Raps in 4 wrote:
Grape wrote:There's a lot of bias by Raptors fans here for sure, plus a lot of recency bias because he's been playing so well the past 5 games (which probably matters even more), all in all there's a LOT of bias.

That being said at the end of the day, I gotta say Siakam is probably somewhere around if not exactly the 30th best player in the league. Fast forward to the start of next season though? There likely isn't 30 players I'd take before him.

There is no bias. The dude is elite.

Regular season: 17/7/3 on 63% TS (21% USG).
Playoffs: 23/8/3 on 60% TS (25% USG)
4.17 RPM

There's almost always bias when you see a bunch of fans of a certain team think much higher of the skills of their players much more so than fans of opposition.

I do think Siakam again, is likely a top 30 player right now. But reading this thread you really saying you can't see the bias?

Stats can't be biased.

Ugly0598 · Post #103 » by **Ugly0598** » Sat Apr 27, 2019 11:34 am

Siakam is a top 30 player, yes. Another good first half of next year and he deserves all-star consideration. Very underrated and just as important as Kawhi to Toronto's success.

Potential · Post #104 » by **Potential** » Sat Apr 27, 2019 12:35 pm

Potential wrote:All I know is he's better than Draymond and a lot of people are gonna say the same this season especially when he improves his 3 pt shot

Thanks for the and1 StumblzMcDeadly.

JShuttlesworth · Post #105 » by **JShuttlesworth** » Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:51 pm

I think Siakam is probably right around 30 or so in terms of best players as of today. As a Raptors fan I hope he continues to improve -- there are also people on the Raps board claiming he's going to be a Top 10 player, not sure I share their optimism in that regard.

A lot of people seem to crapping on the list above, so I decided to throw together my own list, which I divided into groupings.

I don't really think it's debatable that he's better than anyone in the first two groupings. I think that some posters would argue Siakam is better than a few players from the third grouping, others would argue some of those listed in the 4th grouping are better than Siakam - I guess it depends on your take.

As stated, I have him somewhere around 25-30 right now. He has the potential to be an All-Star next season if he continues to play at this level.

Spoiler:

TheNewEra · Post #106 » by **TheNewEra** » Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:08 pm

WeTheNorth123 wrote:
The_Hater wrote:
lebron stopper wrote:Gallinari was amazing this season (this season might just be better than his 2016-17 season in Denver) but I'd rather have Siakam over him. Especially considering that Siakam scored a ton of points efficiently in the playoffs against the one team he was supposed to struggle mightily against (Orlando Magic), while Gallinari hasn't been good at all in the postseason.

That’s a fair take, I just don’t understand why the other poster thought Gallo was the worst player among those 45 names. He’s not even close to the bottom.

it depends how you look at it

current performance vs player outlook

Siakam is younger while Gallinari is probably the most injury prone player on the list which reduces his appeal significantly

has not played 70 games in a season since 2012 (7-8 years ago)

If that’s the case guys like Ayton, Luka, Fox and Collins should be ranked higher than him with him being 25

TheNewEra · Post #107 » by **TheNewEra** » Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:21 pm

B-Ball Freak wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:
picc wrote:Who are 30 players better than Siakim?

Giannis
Harden
Durant
Curry
LeBron
Kawhi
AD
Jokic
Embiid
Irving
PG13
Westbrook
Griffin
KAT
Vucevic
Lillard
Aldridge
Sabonis
Kemba
Gallinari
Beal
Butler
Simmons
CP3
Jrue Holiday
DeRozan
Russell
Doncic
Favors
Conley
Whiteside
Drummond
Capela
Bledsoe
Lowry
Booker
Horford
Middleton
Harrell
Jordan
Lou Williams
Tobias Harris
John Collins
Ayton
Fox

Here are 45 I just came up with, some are only arguable and not outright better. Is he definitely better than 15 of these players?

He's better than about 10 of those guys

Some others that could be arguable if upside and role impact are taken into account

Mitchell
Gobert
Young
LaVine
Oladipo
Tatum

TheBoi10 · Post #108 » by **TheBoi10** » Sat Apr 27, 2019 3:33 pm

Slim Charlez wrote:
TheBoi10 wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:
Giannis
Harden
Durant
Curry
LeBron
Kawhi
AD
Jokic
Embiid
Irving
PG13
Westbrook
Griffin
KAT
Vucevic
Lillard
Aldridge
Sabonis
Kemba
Gallinari
Beal
Butler
Simmons
CP3
Jrue Holiday
DeRozan
Russell
Doncic
Favors
Conley
Whiteside
Drummond
Capela
Bledsoe
Lowry
Booker
Horford
Middleton
Harrell
Jordan
Lou Williams
Tobias Harris
John Collins
Ayton
Fox

Here are 45 I just came up with, some are only arguable and not outright better. Is he definitely better than 15 of these players?

Dude c'mon. What is this?

SIakam is clearly better than

Vucevic
Aldridge
Sabonis
Kemba
Gallinari
DeRozan
Russell
Favors
Whiteside
Drummond
Capela
Booker
Horford
Middleton
Harrell
Jordan
Lou Williams
Tobias Harris
John Collins
Ayton
Fox

In what world is he better than LMA who's led teams to the playoffs numerous times? Or Beal? Harris, Harris, Middleton, Kemba or even Horford? Get a grip.

Siakam is better than LMA on both ends. LMA is an inefficient scorer that relies on the midrange shot and a much less a versatile defender.

Where did I put Beal and Kemba on that list? :roll:

I never listed Siakam is better than them.

Siakam is easily better than overrated Tobias Harris.

What does Middleton do better than Siakam? Siakam is more efficient offensively, they score the same amount of points and Siakam is more versatile defensively.

Horford is a good player. However Siakam is much more of an offensive threat and more versatile defender. Siakam is slightly better than Horford.

The_Hater · Post #109 » by **The_Hater** » Sat Apr 27, 2019 5:19 pm

Raps in 4 wrote:
Grape wrote:
Raps in 4 wrote:
There is no bias. The dude is elite.

Regular season: 17/7/3 on 63% TS (21% USG).
Playoffs: 23/8/3 on 60% TS (25% USG)
4.17 RPM

There's almost always bias when you see a bunch of fans of a certain team think much higher of the skills of their players much more so than fans of opposition.

I do think Siakam again, is likely a top 30 player right now. But reading this thread you really saying you can't see the bias?

Stats can't be biased.

How people use and interpret stats can definitely be biased. People decide that the stats which make their guy look better are more important than the ones that don’t. And we see that on a daily basis around here.

lobosloboslobos · Post #110 » by **lobosloboslobos** » Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:48 pm

he is an elite and versatile defender (Kevin Arnovitz put him on his all-NBA defensive first team)
he is an elite finisher (#12 in TS% in the league this year on moderately high USG) whose 3 pt shooting is rapidly becoming elite (.421% after the all-star break)
he is a strong rebounder (7/game) and ball handler and very capable distributor who is usually the fastest guy on the floor
and he never ever gets tired

oh and he only started playing basketball 7-8 years ago

put him wherever you want to now (personally I'd say top 15) but be prepared to put him higher in your next list

lakerz12 · Post #111 » by **lakerz12** » Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:55 pm

Raptors fans typically do overrate their players (see FVV, Anunobody, Powell). However, Siakam is the real deal. I'd be surprised if he is not at least a 3-4 time All Star over the next 10 years.

Raps in 4 · Post #112 » by **Raps in 4** » Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:26 pm

The_Hater wrote:
Raps in 4 wrote:
Grape wrote:
There's almost always bias when you see a bunch of fans of a certain team think much higher of the skills of their players much more so than fans of opposition.

I do think Siakam again, is likely a top 30 player right now. But reading this thread you really saying you can't see the bias?

Stats can't be biased.

How people use and interpret stats can definitely be biased. People decide that the stats which make their guy look better are more important than the ones that don’t. And we see that on a daily basis around here.

RPM and TS% (when you control for usage) are literally the two most objective stats in basketball.

The_Hater · Post #113 » by **The_Hater** » Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:37 pm

Raps in 4 wrote:
The_Hater wrote:
Raps in 4 wrote:
Stats can't be biased.

How people use and interpret stats can definitely be biased. People decide that the stats which make their guy look better are more important than the ones that don’t. And we see that on a daily basis around here.

RPM and TS% (when you control for usage) are literally the two most objective stats in basketball.

They’re two of the better ones imo but that’s your opinion which in turn, is biased towards those particular stats. Regardless, those 2 numbers still only tell a partial story about how good any player actually is.

Proof? Want the name of a player who rated very high in both of those stats and is now out of the league?

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/noguelu01.html

Raps in 4 · Post #114 » by **Raps in 4** » Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:38 pm

The_Hater wrote:
Raps in 4 wrote:
The_Hater wrote:
How people use and interpret stats can definitely be biased. People decide that the stats which make their guy look better are more important than the ones that don’t. And we see that on a daily basis around here.

RPM and TS% (when you control for usage) are literally the two most objective stats in basketball.

They’re two of the better ones imo but that’s your opinion which in turn, is biased towards those particular stats. Regardless, those 2 numbers still only tell a partial story about how good any player actually is.

Proof? Want the name of a player who rated very high in both of those stats and is now out of the league?

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/noguelu01.html

Which is why is said "when you control for usage". Low usage role players can have inflated stats due to a small sample size/only playing in favourable matchups.

Novocaine · Post #115 » by **Novocaine** » Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:58 pm

Always rated Siakam, always knew he was gonna be a player since his prep school days. He's even better than I predicted and I was predicting him to be good - always thought he was going to be an elite defender, and a high-level offensive roleplayer, but his shot-creation and playmaking have become very solid. He's at least 25 years old, so I don't expect the same degree of improvement moving forward, but I can see him being an occasional All-Star and a regular All-D team.

That said, RPM is an awful stat (like all catch-all stats) and anyone even comparing it to TS% as if they're even remotely similar simply has no clue about statistics. I'm not even sure what makes a stat "objective", but TS% is just as objective as eFG% or FG% - actually a bit less because of the FT adjustment weight?

GordanFreeman · Post #116 » by **GordanFreeman** » Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:57 am

Siakam's touch, oooof. I'm getting emotional thinking about his improvement since last year.

GordanFreeman · Post #117 » by **GordanFreeman** » Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:58 am

Novocaine wrote:Always rated Siakam, always knew he was gonna be a player since his prep school days. He's even better than I predicted and I was predicting him to be good - always thought he was going to be an elite defender, and a high-level offensive roleplayer, but his shot-creation and playmaking have become very solid. He's at least 25 years old, so I don't expect the same degree of improvement moving forward, but I can see him being an occasional All-Star and a regular All-D team.

That said, RPM is an awful stat (like all catch-all stats) and anyone even comparing it to TS% as if they're even remotely similar simply has no clue about statistics. I'm not even sure what makes a stat "objective", but TS% is just as objective as eFG% or FG% - actually a bit less because of the FT adjustment weight?

Get that garbage outta here dude.

TrustFundBaby · Post #118 » by **TrustFundBaby** » Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:01 am

lakerz12 wrote:Raptors fans typically do overrate their players (see FVV, Anunobody, Powell). However, Siakam is the real deal. I'd be surprised if he is not at least a 3-4 time All Star over the next 10 years.

gp2015 · Post #119 » by **gp2015** » Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:04 am

lakerz12 wrote:Raptors fans typically do overrate their players (see FVV, Anunobody, Powell). However, Siakam is the real deal. I'd be surprised if he is not at least a 3-4 time All Star over the next 10 years.

That was last year, when they were playing reasonably well (minus Powell). This year, those 3 are the most hated players on the Raptors board (and for good reason).

Dan Z · Post #120 » by **Dan Z** » Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:04 am

You're rating him when he's still climbing the "ladder". It'll be easier to rank his spot in the league once he slows down a bit in his development. For comparison this thread would be similar to someone making a thread like this the year Jimmy Butler broke out. Now, a few years later, it's easier to see where Butler ranks.