Is Andrew Wiggins Really That Bad?

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Re: Is Andrew Wiggins Really That Bad? 

Post#101 » by E-Balla » Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:39 pm

taikibansei wrote:
wutevahung wrote:
UcanUwill wrote:The less he scores the better, since he shooting at absolute terrible efficiency. He is a negative player, I disagree with notion that if he was paid less he would get no hate, he would still be terrible player.


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This argument always cracks me up. :lol: The Timberwolves are on their fourth coach during Wiggins 5-year career, so playing Wiggins that much certainly has not increased job security. In 3 1/2 seasons of games without Butler, Wiggins has "led" the Twolves to a .375 W-L record, and while leading the team in minutes, and he has yet to lead "his" team in win shares even once (i.e., not even the season before KAT got there). Accordingly, playing Wiggins does not seem to lead to victories either.

Why is Wiggins played so much? I would say Taylor, who has a history of meddling (e.g., the Love contract fiasco, the LaVine trade and Wiggins max) with generally adverse (for the team) results. Regardless, there is no reason for other teams to mirror the Twolves bad decisions.

I always love the "they're in the league you're not" argument as if it's not all based off who you know and not what you know. They don't have open tryouts for FO or coaching positions, they invite the same 12 people and shuffle them around the league.
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Re: Is Andrew Wiggins Really That Bad? 

Post#102 » by dc » Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:42 pm

E-Balla wrote:I always love the "they're in the league you're not" argument as if it's not all based off who you know and not what you know. They don't have open tryouts for FO or coaching positions, they invite the same 12 people and shuffle them around the league.


Absolutely. I mean, let's look at it this way: The T-Wolves have missed the playoffs 14 out of 15 seasons.

If you got the biggest hacks from RealGM forums to run that team, the only worse they could do is miss it 15 out of 15 seasons, LOL. Willing to bet 1/2 of the regular poster on this forum could've done better than that ownership. We're talking about a league where 50% of the teams make the playoffs every year. If you miss out on that 14 out of 15 seasons, you're borderline trying NOT to make it.

And I would say the same thing about the streaks accomplished by the Kings and the Chris Cohan owned Warriors. Cohan let a complete hack named Robert Rowell ascend all the way to Team President (which included basketball decisions). The guy had no basketball background whatsoever and 95% of this forum could school that guy on how to run a pro franchise. He got to that position purely because he knew how to play the office politics under a terrible owner, not because he demonstrated any kind of basketball acumen.
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Re: Is Andrew Wiggins Really That Bad? 

Post#103 » by Klomp » Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:32 pm

dc wrote:Absolutely. I mean, let's look at it this way: The T-Wolves have missed the playoffs 14 out of 15 seasons.

If you got the biggest hacks from RealGM forums to run that team, the only worse they could do is miss it 15 out of 15 seasons, LOL. Willing to bet 1/2 of the regular poster on this forum could've done better than that ownership. We're talking about a league where 50% of the teams make the playoffs every year. If you miss out on that 14 out of 15 seasons, you're borderline trying NOT to make it.

Most people don't truly understand what's gone on in Minnesota that's led to the playoff drought.

First, let's begin with something that doesn't often get brought up in this discussion.....the Joe Smith fiasco. Yes, I believe it played a part in the playoff drought. You see, while all of the picks were technically made while Minnesota was a playoff team, those picks should've been part of the foundation for continuing what was started by the franchise. We lost four draft picks from 2000 to 2004. While none of those would've been high lottery picks (22, 18, 23, 26), they still could've been used on impact players. I also believe losing the picks is what led to us taking a high-potential gamble on Ndudi Ebi over the "safe" option in Josh Howard with the one pick that was restored in 2003.

The Cassell/Sprewell era didn't last as long as Minnesota probably expected, which also threw a wrench in the plans. Saunders was fired (a mistake the owner later admitted to), and that began the franchise spiraling downward. Eventually, Garnett was traded. That started the team's rebuilding phase. But while it's easy to joke and say the team's been rebuilding for 15 years, people have to realize it wasn't all under the same regime. The first two years after Garnett, it was McHale trying to build something from what was left over but didn't have enough young talent because of the lost picks. Then David Kahn happened. I'm not even going to address that four years because of the nightmares it might cause (Kurt Rambis, really?).

Flip Saunders stepped in but was left with a mess of a Kevin Love trade demand situation left by Kahn. He did the best he could with the situation and had most Wolves fans optimistic about the franchise's trajectory before his untimely death. After a year with Mitchell as interim, Thibs came in and tried to quick-fix. I do still believe getting to the playoffs that one time was important for the young core of the team, but it's just unfortunate how quickly everything unraveled.

But this is the first time in a long time (maybe ever?) that there seems to be a unified vision from the front office to the coaching staff. There's something exciting building at Target Center, and I'm excited to be on the ground level for it. This isn't a Hinkie-level teardown, but I'm optimistic the outcome will be the same. This team is building something special.

In summary, it's easy to look at it big picture and say it's 15 years of failure, but it's been a series of events that have added up to this point rather than just pointing at one general manager as the culprit of all of the problems. There were times in the 15 years they got close to building something but just couldn't get over the ledge. There's something different about the feel early in this regime's tenure, though. It probably won't happen this year, but I believe Minnesota will be a team to be reckoned with in the near future.
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Re: Is Andrew Wiggins Really That Bad? 

Post#104 » by taikibansei » Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:47 pm

Klomp wrote:
dc wrote:Absolutely. I mean, let's look at it this way: The T-Wolves have missed the playoffs 14 out of 15 seasons.

If you got the biggest hacks from RealGM forums to run that team, the only worse they could do is miss it 15 out of 15 seasons, LOL. Willing to bet 1/2 of the regular poster on this forum could've done better than that ownership. We're talking about a league where 50% of the teams make the playoffs every year. If you miss out on that 14 out of 15 seasons, you're borderline trying NOT to make it.

Most people don't truly understand what's gone on in Minnesota that's led to the playoff drought.

First, let's begin with something that doesn't often get brought up in this discussion.....the Joe Smith fiasco. Yes, I believe it played a part in the playoff drought. You see, while all of the picks were technically made while Minnesota was a playoff team, those picks should've been part of the foundation for continuing what was started by the franchise. We lost four draft picks from 2000 to 2004. While none of those would've been high lottery picks (22, 18, 23, 26), they still could've been used on impact players. I also believe losing the picks is what led to us taking a high-potential gamble on Ndudi Ebi over the "safe" option in Josh Howard with the one pick that was restored in 2003.

The Cassell/Sprewell era didn't last as long as Minnesota probably expected, which also threw a wrench in the plans. Saunders was fired (a mistake the owner later admitted to), and that began the franchise spiraling downward. Eventually, Garnett was traded. That started the team's rebuilding phase. But while it's easy to joke and say the team's been rebuilding for 15 years, people have to realize it wasn't all under the same regime. The first two years after Garnett, it was McHale trying to build something from what was left over but didn't have enough young talent because of the lost picks. Then David Kahn happened. I'm not even going to address that four years because of the nightmares it might cause (Kurt Rambis, really?).

Flip Saunders stepped in but was left with a mess of a Kevin Love trade demand situation left by Kahn. He did the best he could with the situation and had most Wolves fans optimistic about the franchise's trajectory before his untimely death. After a year with Mitchell as interim, Thibs came in and tried to quick-fix. I do still believe getting to the playoffs that one time was important for the young core of the team, but it's just unfortunate how quickly everything unraveled.

But this is the first time in a long time (maybe ever?) that there seems to be a unified vision from the front office to the coaching staff. There's something exciting building at Target Center, and I'm excited to be on the ground level for it. This isn't a Hinkie-level teardown, but I'm optimistic the outcome will be the same. This team is building something special.

In summary, it's easy to look at it big picture and say it's 15 years of failure, but it's been a series of events that have added up to this point rather than just pointing at one general manager as the culprit of all of the problems. There were times in the 15 years they got close to building something but just couldn't get over the ledge. There's something different about the feel early in this regime's tenure, though. It probably won't happen this year, but I believe Minnesota will be a team to be reckoned with in the near future.


Klomp, I agree with some of what you say, but you're omitting the common denominator in all this futility: Taylor.

I'll just respond to the bit underlined. The Kevin Love fiasco was not just Kahn, but Taylor as well. The crux of the matter was that Taylor and Kahn wanted to save the "designated player" money for either Rubio...or Derrick Williams.

The four-year deal gives the Timberwolves some flexibility going forward and keeps that maximum offer available for point guard Ricky Rubio, No. 2 overall pick Derrick Williams or another player down the road.


http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7502324/kevin-love-minnesota-timberwolves-reach-four-year-deal-opt-out

Understandably, because Kahn thought Ricky Rubio and Jonny Flynn were going to be the next Walt Frazier and Earl Monroe:

https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ball-dont-lie/ex-timberwolves-gm-david-kahn-reportedly-thought-ricky-154255546.html

And Taylor thought Love was not a star:

Sometime during all of this, Wolves owner Glen Taylor -- who in 2007 accused Garnett of “tanking” -- said Love wasn’t a star because he hadn’t led the team to the playoffs, a sentiment so delusional it begs the question of if Taylor had ever looked at his own roster.


http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/70176/kevin-love-lost-in-minnesota

This link also gives a good summary of things:

https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2013/5/3/4296498/david-kahn-fired-timberwolves-kevin-love-jonny-flynn

And then Kahn himself says it was Taylor as well:

And according to Kahn, Taylor was responsible for some of the Wolves' worst decisions in that span, including the decision that has resulted in Love forcing his way out of town. From Kahn's post-sacking tell-all:

"We handled it the best way we can, and of course I handled it per instructions from the owner. Glen and I talked about it at length. I think it actually took me some time to tell Glen it was imperative he receive max money. The only issue, the only quibble came down to that last year [...]. It's an awfully long time to string a contract out with all the variables that can occur mostly due to injuries and oftentimes to big men. That was it. I think Kevin really had his heart set on a fifth year. I think his friendship with Russell Westbrook (who signed a five-year deal with OKC) made it difficult to accept, but that's why I also prevailed upon Glen that we should relent and give him a third-year option so he felt like he was winning something too. In every compromise it's important for both sides to walk away with something that was valuable to have."


https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2014/8/27/6073775/glen-taylor-timberwolves-kevin-love-trade-blame

So, basically, they were in communication throughout, Taylor was against giving max money to Love--Kahn had to convince him to do it--and both agreed about giving him less than five years. Kahn's contribution, besides convincing Taylor to pay Love, was to get Taylor to compromise on that last year, making it the player's option.

These were all bad choices, and Taylor had his hand in all of them. Keep in mind that Kevin Love was averaging 24.9 points and 13.9 rebounds per game at that time. If he had finished the season with those averages, he'd have been the first player to do so since Moses Malone in 1981-82.
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Re: Is Andrew Wiggins Really That Bad? 

Post#105 » by JN61 » Sat Jul 20, 2019 7:49 pm

Kabookalu wrote:
JN61 wrote:
Kabookalu wrote:I hate to say this since I hyped him up so much before the draft, but yes he is. I've followed him since high school, and he's so frustrating to watch because I've seen so many instances throughout the years that suggested he'll be a star, but he doesn't bother putting in the effort. When he's focused and locked in he can be a superstar stopper.



But more often than not he just doesn't care and will completely cost his team on defense all because he's not paying attention. The above video is the rare times where he will and you can see the potential brimming off of him.

Most of those clips are bad defense. He opens up his stance all the time and allows the drive to all directions which is also known as not following the defensive scheme, and can't stay ahead on the screen or recover after but tries to goose pick from behind which doesn't affect shot.


Not really, no. It's not required to force the scorer to one side if they can challenge the shot straight up, and Wiggins is a world class athlete that he can do that if he tries.

It would certainly explain TWolves defense last year.
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Re: Is Andrew Wiggins Really That Bad? 

Post#106 » by Soulcatcher33 » Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:02 pm

People are always going on about work ethic, but that means absolutely nothing if you are an absolute dunce when it comes to basketball. Take Tony Allen for instance. He had a great worth ethic, but was just completely stupid when it came to basketball on the offensive end. He just didn't get it. Wiggins is the same way except he has more innate talent so he's allowed more leeway. Wiggins is just Harrison Barnes with hype.
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Re: Is Andrew Wiggins Really That Bad? 

Post#107 » by Ferulci » Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:07 pm

Do we have good articles/reads on Wiggins work ethic/motivation or lack thereof ?
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Re: Is Andrew Wiggins Really That Bad? 

Post#108 » by killmongrel » Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:41 am

31M by the time his contract is on its last year in 2023. Mama Mia!
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Re: Is Andrew Wiggins Really That Bad? 

Post#109 » by Zeitgeister » Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:58 am

taikibansei wrote:
Klomp wrote:
dc wrote:Absolutely. I mean, let's look at it this way: The T-Wolves have missed the playoffs 14 out of 15 seasons.

If you got the biggest hacks from RealGM forums to run that team, the only worse they could do is miss it 15 out of 15 seasons, LOL. Willing to bet 1/2 of the regular poster on this forum could've done better than that ownership. We're talking about a league where 50% of the teams make the playoffs every year. If you miss out on that 14 out of 15 seasons, you're borderline trying NOT to make it.

Most people don't truly understand what's gone on in Minnesota that's led to the playoff drought.

First, let's begin with something that doesn't often get brought up in this discussion.....the Joe Smith fiasco. Yes, I believe it played a part in the playoff drought. You see, while all of the picks were technically made while Minnesota was a playoff team, those picks should've been part of the foundation for continuing what was started by the franchise. We lost four draft picks from 2000 to 2004. While none of those would've been high lottery picks (22, 18, 23, 26), they still could've been used on impact players. I also believe losing the picks is what led to us taking a high-potential gamble on Ndudi Ebi over the "safe" option in Josh Howard with the one pick that was restored in 2003.

The Cassell/Sprewell era didn't last as long as Minnesota probably expected, which also threw a wrench in the plans. Saunders was fired (a mistake the owner later admitted to), and that began the franchise spiraling downward. Eventually, Garnett was traded. That started the team's rebuilding phase. But while it's easy to joke and say the team's been rebuilding for 15 years, people have to realize it wasn't all under the same regime. The first two years after Garnett, it was McHale trying to build something from what was left over but didn't have enough young talent because of the lost picks. Then David Kahn happened. I'm not even going to address that four years because of the nightmares it might cause (Kurt Rambis, really?).

Flip Saunders stepped in but was left with a mess of a Kevin Love trade demand situation left by Kahn. He did the best he could with the situation and had most Wolves fans optimistic about the franchise's trajectory before his untimely death. After a year with Mitchell as interim, Thibs came in and tried to quick-fix. I do still believe getting to the playoffs that one time was important for the young core of the team, but it's just unfortunate how quickly everything unraveled.

But this is the first time in a long time (maybe ever?) that there seems to be a unified vision from the front office to the coaching staff. There's something exciting building at Target Center, and I'm excited to be on the ground level for it. This isn't a Hinkie-level teardown, but I'm optimistic the outcome will be the same. This team is building something special.

In summary, it's easy to look at it big picture and say it's 15 years of failure, but it's been a series of events that have added up to this point rather than just pointing at one general manager as the culprit of all of the problems. There were times in the 15 years they got close to building something but just couldn't get over the ledge. There's something different about the feel early in this regime's tenure, though. It probably won't happen this year, but I believe Minnesota will be a team to be reckoned with in the near future.


Klomp, I agree with some of what you say, but you're omitting the common denominator in all this futility: Taylor.

I'll just respond to the bit underlined. The Kevin Love fiasco was not just Kahn, but Taylor as well. The crux of the matter was that Taylor and Kahn wanted to save the "designated player" money for either Rubio...or Derrick Williams.


It should also be stated that the reason Kahn was hired in the first place, and not Dennis Lindsey, who used to work for the Spurs and has been the GM of the Jazz for several years now, was because Taylor would not allow Lindsey to make his own hiring and firing decisions in the front office. Lindsey wanted to bring in all new people but Taylor would not allow it.
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Re: Is Andrew Wiggins Really That Bad? 

Post#110 » by Kabookalu » Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:04 am

JN61 wrote:
Kabookalu wrote:
JN61 wrote:Most of those clips are bad defense. He opens up his stance all the time and allows the drive to all directions which is also known as not following the defensive scheme, and can't stay ahead on the screen or recover after but tries to goose pick from behind which doesn't affect shot.


Not really, no. It's not required to force the scorer to one side if they can challenge the shot straight up, and Wiggins is a world class athlete that he can do that if he tries.

It would certainly explain TWolves defense last year.


What would explain their defense is that their two franchise players don't always put the necessary effort on that end consistently.
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