As a Scoring Point Guard, Steph Has No Serious Rival

[clyde21]

I like that you're comparing defence here, when dame is an abysmal defender and curry is atleast an average defender for his position.

I mean you can use the talent argument, but then what's the argument for this season where steph is still completely outplaying Dame with one of the worst rosters in the NBA?

At some point, people will have to accept steph is just simply superior to Dame. Dame is great, there are levels to greatness however.

There is a chance Steph and Dame will have that play in game. If Steph wins that, the debate would be over forever.

What if Dame wins?

either way it's not a debate, pretty clearly by any category or measure

no disrespect to Dame, again, but there are levels to this.

[michaelm]

Umm, the guy that has lead the nba in assists isnt a point guard because it doesnt fit the narrative.

Because he's spent the majority of his career nominally a shooting guard. It's the same reason LeBron doesn't show up on any greatest point guard ever debates. He handles the ball more than everyone else. He's always been the point guard. But he's a wing. Same deal with Harden. Harden to me is the second or third greatest scoring shooting guard after MJ and Kobe

LeBron has only played point for 1-2 years. So theres that.
Draymond has lead the Warriors in assists every year since 2015.
Steph wont guard other point guards, doesnt balance the floor, and brings the ball up court less than Draymond.
Hardens only no PG years are when CP3 was in houston and in OKC

Both Harden and Curry have excellent pure PG skills, Harden’s may even be a little superior. That both have extreme other skills is hardly a knock on either of them.

Harden is obviously a great scorer as well. The FT aspect of his scoring had not always transferred to the playa-offs, but Moreyball was more than likely imposed on him rather than he himself being intrinsically flawed. If the Nets don’t win this year I am fairly sure it won’t be due to any offensive deficiencies of Harden’s.

[michaelm]

Please dont mention him in same breath with the all time great guards like Kobe or MJ. Steph was 1 dimensional in contrast to Kobe’s and MJ who played lockdown defense as well.

That's like saying don't mention Kobe and MJ in the same breath as Curry because they didn't and probably never could shoot the three like Curry does. Kobe and MJ are based on the same model. Curry is a truer original.

They definitely couldn't shoot the 3 better, nobody has. But Steph can't shoot 2's at a high volume efficiency that MJ and others could. That's why Steph is considered the best "3pt shooter" of all time.

Same old argument. He shoots 2s at high efficiency, but probably sees no reason to take long twos when he usually has better/more efficient options just to prove himself to you. Sure Durant at nearly 7 foot has a better/more unstoppable long 2 shot which added the final dimension to GSW.

[michaelm]

Threads such as this one are how and why certain players get overrated. Not saying by a lot but overrated all the same. I don't feel like a lot of people who make these threads or say a bunch of hyperbolic things about the player they are about have been following the nba for Morelos than 10-20 years either. For instance, no Steph isn't the goat screen runner and his release while quick I'm not sold on the quickest but also he has very little lift and a somewhat low release point on top of being sort of smallish which means he can't get his shot off quite as easily as other guys such as Reggie or Luka. You can appreciate a player without them needing to be the greatest ever at x, y, z and x1, y2, z2. I say this as someone who's been making complimentary posts about Steph almost all season long including when people were busy making the threads about him being so exposed early on and when the Warriors record started to sink a month or so ago.

His release is ridiculously quick particularly given the difficulty/range of the shots he makes.

[BoatsNZones]

Threads such as this one are how and why certain players get overrated. Not saying by a lot but overrated all the same. I don't feel like a lot of people who make these threads or say a bunch of hyperbolic things about the player they are about have been following the nba for Morelos than 10-20 years either. For instance, no Steph isn't the goat screen runner and his release while quick I'm not sold on the quickest but also he has very little lift and a somewhat low release point on top of being sort of smallish which means he can't get his shot off quite as easily as other guys such as Reggie or Luka. You can appreciate a player without them needing to be the greatest ever at x, y, z and x1, y2, z2. I say this as someone who's been making complimentary posts about Steph almost all season long including when people were busy making the threads about him being so exposed early on and when the Warriors record started to sink a month or so ago.

His release is ridiculously quick particularly given the difficulty/range of the shots he makes.

Fairly sure sports-science has a piece on this and Curry's is the quickest release they've ever recorded. Not sure who would argue as a better screen runner other than Reggie, and while he was elite (the best of the 90's), I don't see an argument that he had Curry's attrition for it (Curry never stops unless the play dictates it, and Miller himself comments on this all the time in his broadcasts). Reggie was also never the primary ball-handler on all other plays. His variety of ways to dominate combined with his willingness to play within an offense is why he's arguably the most potent offensive weapon the game has seen.

[SoulJah]

Steph and Damn are miles above everyone else. Kyrie is not in the same boat as them, people need to understand that.

[Pelly24]

Steph and Damn are miles above everyone else. Kyrie is not in the same boat as them, people need to understand that.

I actually think dame and Kyrie are very much in the same boat below Steph. Their per 75 stats the last 200 or so games have been pretty much the same in terms of volume and TS%. BPM’s and ws/48 have also been kinda similar and this year, with the caveat that Kyrie is on a better team, they’re at a similar level scoring. Dame has a quicker release and deeper range, gets to the line more, Kyrie is a much better finisher and midrange shooter and less streaky as a shooter overall from everywhere. Dame more durable, a better playmaker and frankly, more mentally equipped to play pro ball.

[rtiff68]

There is a chance Steph and Dame will have that play in game. If Steph wins that, the debate would be over forever.

How is there still a debate at this point?

I love Lillard, which makes me hate having to have these conversations because I feel like I'm denigrating him.

The results of a "play-in" game this year wouldn't "settle the debate" anymore than a bad season this year would've "proven" that Steph "can't succeed without a stacked team."

What I meant was that if Dame lost the play-in with an obvious much stronger cast, it should forever quench all remaining Curry-Lillard doubters.

If the 2019 WCF, after everything else that had happened beforehand, didn’t “quench the remaining doubters,” then nothing ever will.

Four close games, where the Blazers lead all 4 at halftime. Warriors were wounded beyond Durant being out.

Curry was outstanding, and Dame was— and I hate to say this— pretty lousy. Despite trailing at halftime during every game, the Warriors swept.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2019-nba-western-conference-finals-trail-blazers-vs-warriors.html

[rtiff68]

If the Blazers face the Lakers in the playoffs this year and manage to best them, then Melo will have finally proven that he’s better than LeBron!

[DB23]

Regarding harden v currry, harden has choked way too much in big games for this to be a serious comparison.

Would have been interesting to see curry’s number in a dantoni system but we’ll never know.

One thing for sure, if the nets are anything short of one of the most dominant teams of all time in the playoffs then you can end the debate.

That’s what Curry did with the same talent the nets have. If the nets lose... at least these comparisons will stop.

[pr0wler]

Even though I'm a huge Harden stan, it's hard to put him above Curry.

Although Steph doesn't really carry an offense on his own in terms of floor raising and generating looks for the entire team, his scoring is just so insanely efficient that it adds immense value to any team. Possibly more so than any other player ever.

[BoatsNZones]

Even though I'm a huge Harden stan, it's hard to put him above Curry.

Although Steph doesn't really carry an offense on his own in terms of floor raising and generating looks for the entire team, his scoring is just so insanely efficient that it adds immense value to any team. Possibly more so than any other player ever.

He does exactly that, just not in the conventional sense in dribbling all possession until someone collapses (although he does that too occasionally). He initiates chaos on/off ball, and they benefit to a massive degree. We've seen the TS% with Curry on/off over the years, and no other player adds up. He has a 10-20 win team playing at a 57% win clip with him on the floor. Floor raiser, ceiling raiser, whatever. It's all there and has always been there since he stepped on the floor at Davidson.

And I appreciate that you have Curry > Harden as a Harden stan. No self-respecting NBA fan could have it otherwise after what he did to Harden/CP3/Lillard/KD/Westbrook over the past decade. They ALL had their chances, and all fell short every time. Absolutely zero shame in that.

[worldjbfree]

Personally, I count both West and Harden as SGs.

For what he can do and how he changed the league, I’m fine with calling Curry the best scoring PG ever. That being said, I would still put Magic as my #1 PG of all-time. Curry might be my #2 though. As good as they were, Oscar, Stockton and Isiah didn’t alter the league forever (except maybe Oscar for free agency).

[Pelly24]

Regarding harden v currry, harden has choked way too much in big games for this to be a serious comparison.

Would have been interesting to see curry’s number in a dantoni system but we’ll never know.

One thing for sure, if the nets are anything short of one of the most dominant teams of all time in the playoffs then you can end the debate.

That’s what Curry did with the same talent the nets have. If the nets lose... at least these comparisons will stop.

Honestly, this narrative is really overblown. Harden had one all-nba player in their prime his whole stint in Houston, and that was first year CP3, who got injured. Harden has had choke jobs, but it's not like he had players as good as PEAK Draymond and Klay and then role players as good as Iggy, Bogut, Harrison Barnes, Shaun Livingston...list goes on.

[nfmos]

Its always so frustrating when people are comparing Steph to players like Harden and saying that Curry has always had better teams, or saying that hes not a true pg because he doesn't have huge assist numbers.

People completely disregard that there is a reason Steph has had better teams around him and its because he is just that much better of a TEAMMATE. The player and person he is, low ego and selfless, are the reasons other players thrive and grow around him, and flock to wanting to play with him. Hes not ball dominating, he always deflects credit and doesnt hide from blame, and the way that other teams focus so much on him opens the floor up so much for anyone playing with him.

Yes he never leads the league in assists because he knows keeping the ball moving and not ball dominating and dribbling the shot clock out while hunting for an assist is better for the team. The years we were making the finals the team was consistently near the top in team assists even without any one player close to double digits because it just makes a better team when the defense cant just focus on shutting down one player. Even this year, we are leading the league in assists, do you think Curry cares that he isn't a league leader in assists? Maybe he has a better understanding of the game than some of those leaders because he understands a hockey assist is just as good and probably even more important in developing a winning team.

And the same people that are citing Draymond or Klay as proof of his all star support were probably the same people talking trash about those players before the team blew up, saying Draymond didnt deserve to be an all star and that Klay was limited and was overrated. But Curry not being a ball hog and not needing to always be the hero gave the space for those players and others to grow into the great teammates that they became. There was a reason our team had a motto of Strength in Numbers, because our best player didnt need the spotlight or ball constantly in his hand. Could you imagine a Harden or KD or WB team using that same motto?

And people always cite other players carrying their teams to the playoffs, even if those teams rarely go deep in the playoffs, as if thats some sort of thing to brag about. If you are team dominated by one great player, sure you might win enough in the regular season and even beat some weaker early round opponents. But when things tighten down and defenses can focus on shutting down one person, those teams ultimately fail. So is it more important to ball hog just to get to the playoffs, or focus on creating a more balanced team where everyone improves and is involved to prepare for that extra focus as the playoffs go deeper?

The greatness of Steph will never be completely shown in his stats, even tho those are amazing also. But when you think of how great this team has been when he has been the absolute foundation and soul of the team, both on and off the court, that more accurately demonstrates how great he is.

[BoatsNZones]

Regarding harden v currry, harden has choked way too much in big games for this to be a serious comparison.

Would have been interesting to see curry’s number in a dantoni system but we’ll never know.

One thing for sure, if the nets are anything short of one of the most dominant teams of all time in the playoffs then you can end the debate.

That’s what Curry did with the same talent the nets have. If the nets lose... at least these comparisons will stop.

Honestly, this narrative is really overblown. Harden had one all-nba player in their prime his whole stint in Houston, and that was first year CP3, who got injured. Harden has had choke jobs, but it's not like he had players as good as PEAK Draymond and Klay and then role players as good as Iggy, Bogut, Harrison Barnes, Shaun Livingston...list goes on.

And this narrative is way overblown. He had fantastic casts throughout including Cp3 (injured? briefly)/Gordon/Capela/Ryan Anderson/Ariza/Westbrook/Bev, etc etc. They were a fantastic group who often did fantastic with him even off the floor (far better at times than any team Curry had with him off court ,including the KD years - which I have expounded on extensively in other threads). He had his last chance when KD went down mid-series in a tied series v him and CP3. Curry ended that discussion then and there (was never actually a discussion to be honest).

[Peregrine01]

Regarding harden v currry, harden has choked way too much in big games for this to be a serious comparison.

Would have been interesting to see curry’s number in a dantoni system but we’ll never know.

One thing for sure, if the nets are anything short of one of the most dominant teams of all time in the playoffs then you can end the debate.

That’s what Curry did with the same talent the nets have. If the nets lose... at least these comparisons will stop.

Honestly, this narrative is really overblown. Harden had one all-nba player in their prime his whole stint in Houston, and that was first year CP3, who got injured. Harden has had choke jobs, but it's not like he had players as good as PEAK Draymond and Klay and then role players as good as Iggy, Bogut, Harrison Barnes, Shaun Livingston...list goes on.

Harden has driven away every single all-star he ever played with in Houston. There's a reason for that: other star players eventually came to tire of his ball-dominant style. It's disingenuous to say that Harden didn't have a lot of talent around him when 1) that talent eventually didn't want to play with him; and 2) his style of play is maximized by having 3 and D guys, and not great star talent anyway.

You think guys like Draymond and Klay would be as good playing next to Harden? Hell no.

[floppymoose]

fixing the title.

[nfmos]

Regarding harden v currry, harden has choked way too much in big games for this to be a serious comparison.

Would have been interesting to see curry’s number in a dantoni system but we’ll never know.

One thing for sure, if the nets are anything short of one of the most dominant teams of all time in the playoffs then you can end the debate.

That’s what Curry did with the same talent the nets have. If the nets lose... at least these comparisons will stop.

Honestly, this narrative is really overblown. Harden had one all-nba player in their prime his whole stint in Houston, and that was first year CP3, who got injured. Harden has had choke jobs, but it's not like he had players as good as PEAK Draymond and Klay and then role players as good as Iggy, Bogut, Harrison Barnes, Shaun Livingston...list goes on.

Harden has driven away every single all-star he ever played with in Houston. There's a reason for that: other star players eventually came to tire of his ball-dominant style. It's disingenuous to say that Harden didn't have a lot of talent around him when 1) that talent eventually didn't want to play with him; and 2) his style of play is maximized by having 3 and D guys, and not great star talent anyway.

You think guys like Draymond and Klay would be as good playing next to Harden? Hell no.

Exactly! Iggy saw how much the team loved playing together and thats why he joined them. And KD saw the team camaraderie during their recruiting visit and he wanted to be a part of that. The Houston team was completely built around Harden, and he had ultimate power on who he wanted the front office to get, but how many elite players would flourish alongside him? And which player just seemed like a teammate with less ego or demands?

And no way Draymond becomes the point forward he has with Harden constantly with the ball, and how much would Klay run around screens if he wasnt sure if he was going to get consistent passes?

[DB23]

Regarding harden v currry, harden has choked way too much in big games for this to be a serious comparison.

Would have been interesting to see curry’s number in a dantoni system but we’ll never know.

One thing for sure, if the nets are anything short of one of the most dominant teams of all time in the playoffs then you can end the debate.

That’s what Curry did with the same talent the nets have. If the nets lose... at least these comparisons will stop.

Honestly, this narrative is really overblown. Harden had one all-nba player in their prime his whole stint in Houston, and that was first year CP3, who got injured. Harden has had choke jobs, but it's not like he had players as good as PEAK Draymond and Klay and then role players as good as Iggy, Bogut, Harrison Barnes, Shaun Livingston...list goes on.

Actually I think the opposite narrative is overblown, that steph played with some best of all time supporting cast pre KD.

Klay and draymond are two of my favorite players but they have limitations. We don’t discredit lebron for winning with peak d wade and Bosh, Kobe with shaq and magic with Kareem etc but for some reason klay and dray discredit Steph’s legacy to some people. It’s crazy.

Harden has played with plenty of talent and you are downplaying how good those rockets players are. Part of them falling short is that he just hasn’t worked that well with others. Hopefully he’s learned his lesson now that he is in Brooklyn.