My brand new top 50 ranking after 2021 Finals results. What do you think?

[Magic Is Magic]

I think it is wrong.
You don't need 25 categories to measure greatness. In science there is a rule "the simplest explanation is usually the best one" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor). Having all these categories is just a way to cherry pick you formula to match your personal belief, which, as can be seen, does not comply to the public consensus. Once you focus on the most important stuff in these categories, you will see who the greats really are. Hint: there are only 3 players with at least 5 rings and 5 MVPs, and LeBron is not one of them.

I obviously disagree but thanks for contributing. There is much more to basketball than 2 awards and I don't like to take the simple way out of things.

[Wolves21]

Not a bad list and agree with your top 10 for sure,but in a different order.

In terms of the guys still playing in the league agree that James,Durant,Harden,Curry,Paul,Gannis,Westbrook & Leonard are all in the top 50 of all time,again would rank them differently(aka Curry should be above everyone not named James or Durant as his style of play changed the entire league and was piggy back on by Harden that put it over the top)but strongly feel that even with his stats and damn near decade in the league that Anthony Davis is not a top 50 player of all time.

[zimpy27]

Giannis going to smash into the top 10 soon

[zimpy27]

People may disagree with your list but you were forthright with your logic and because of that you reduced bias and maintained consistency.

That's at least several tiers above most lists I've ever seen which are usually just based on personal feelings. Well done!

[Magic Is Magic]

People may disagree with your list but you were forthright with your logic and because of that you reduced bias and maintained consistency.

That's at least several tiers above most lists I've ever seen which are usually just based on personal feelings. Well done!

Thank you Zimpy! I had a lot of fun in the Real GM top 100 so thanks again for inviting me and letting me be a part of that project. And I agree with you I see many lists that start out with a criteria to pronounce Player A as the goat but then disregard that criteria when judging players ranked 2 through 10, or 2 through 25 or who knows what range but the point is clear: Be consistent with your values and the results for all players (and the results just might surprise you). I agree as well that Giannis has a strong chance to push up much further if he keeps producing quality seasons like 2021. GA's future is bright and I'm sure at some point I'll have to start doing a similar assessment for Trae and Luka if they keep producing in the ways that they have in their already early career.

[Magic Is Magic]

.Double Post.

[Magic Is Magic]

Not a bad list and agree with your top 10 for sure,but in a different order.

In terms of the guys still playing in the league agree that James,Durant,Harden,Curry,Paul,Gannis,Westbrook & Leonard are all in the top 50 of all time,again would rank them differently(aka Curry should be above everyone not named James or Durant as his style of play changed the entire league and was piggy back on by Harden that put it over the top)but strongly feel that even with his stats and damn near decade in the league that Anthony Davis is not a top 50 player of all time.

I will confess that I was surprised to see Davis already being in the top 50 but the criteria was the same for everyone. The things that boosted him into the top 50 rankings were his 4x All NBA 1st teams, 4x All Defensive 1st/2nd teams, his ring, 8x All star selections (more than Giannis, Curry, Kawhi, so that helps his case),Top 5 in MVP voting twice, and then the RS PER over 25.0 was done 7x. It's a well rounded, solid mix of things that showed he was producing quality seasons and stood out amongst his contemporaries.

[algope]

Hi,
Good effort.
The thing that a first sight I think could create imbalance is MVP win shares. I think that in the past MVP was not voted in the same way that today. If you see for exaple the KAJ MVPs there is a 1.000 share and if the winner gets 0,5 the others players will get at the most 0,5 between all of them together. Maybe there was only a vote for the winner. Today voters give points to second, third, etc...and even if the winner obtain 0,8 for example the second can get 0,5 the third 0,3 and more. If you see the Jordan´s and Lebron´s MVP, between all the nominees obtain 2,500 for example. At the end of the day in the past the win shares of MVP where way more difficult to obtain, I suppose that´s the reason KAJ gets knocked by MJ and LJ in this category.
One solution could be not to use win shares, instead give points to players that end second, third in MVP voting...giving the same points to those players all the years.

[OverAndOut]

Garnett, Curry, and Nash are too low.

[bwgood77]

Hello community,

I created an all-time NBA ranking formula metrics and every year I update the numbers after the playoffs have concluded. The obvious big mover after 2021 is Giannis but his career is still young and he did not jump as many spots as most people think but the good news is he has so many more years to build on his steady foundation. At the end of 2020 Giannis was 38th and now after his impressive 2021 showing he is ranked 31 according to my formula. Like I'm saying his career is still so early he has plenty of time to keep rising. So does Curry, Harden and Durant but for guys like Westbrook his best years are well behind him. I use a 25-point ranking system that takes many things into consideration, things like MVP winners, FMVP winners, Rings, All NBA 1st team and 2nd team, All Defensive 1st and 2nd team, Top 3 MVP finishes, Top 5 MVP finishes, Top 3 Rebounding, Top 5 rebounding, PER over 25.0, WS/48 over .250, BPM over 7.0 (these are all looked at for RS and PO), All star selections, and other categories. After all these data points and calculations here is what the results produced from my "Magic is Magic, Magic Formula"

1 ...LeBron James = 87.76
2 ...Michael Jordan = 85.02
3 ...Kareem A-Jabbar = 72.92
4 ...Tim Duncan = 57.79
5 ...Bill Russell = 56.13
6 ...Wilt Chamberlain = 54.99
7 ...Magic Johnson = 48.61
8 ...Shaquille O'Neal = 46.63
9 ...Kobe Bryant = 42.73
10 ...Larry Bird = 39.21
11 ...Hakeem Olajuwon = 35.54
12 ...Kevin Durant = 33.25
13 ...Karl Malone = 32.76
14 ...Jerry West = 32.13
15 ...Dirk Nowitzki = 31.22
16 ...Moses Malone = 28.59
17 ...David Robinson = 28.39
18 ...Oscar Robertson = 28.37
19 ...Chris Paul = 28.18
20 ...George Mikan = 27.85
21 ...Bob Cousy = 27.78
22 ...Kevin Garnett = 27.44
23 ...Julius Erving = 27.40
24 ...Bob Pettit = 26.49
25 ...Kawhi Leonard = 23.91
26 ...James Harden = 23.63
27 ...Charles Barkley = 22.78
28 ...John Havlicek = 22.39
29 ...John Stockton = 21.81
30 ...Stephen Curry = 21.31
31 ...Giannis Antetekuompo = 21.23
32 ...Dwyane Wade = 20.52
33 ...Dolph Schayes = 20.06
34 ...Jason Kidd = 20.04
35 ...Elgin Baylor = 18.81
36 ...Willis Reed = 17.61
37 ...Scottie Pippen = 17.41
38 ...Steve Nash = 17.40
39 ...Russell Westbrook = 16.82
40 ...Elvin Hayes = 14.37
41 ...Rick Barry = 14.02
42 ...Walt Frazier = 13.82
43 ...Anthony Davis = 13.32
44 ...Allen Iverson = 13.11
45 ...George Gervin = 13.05
46 ...Patrick Ewing = 12.50
47 ...Isiah Thomas = 12.00
48 ...Paul Pierce = 10.86
49 ...Bill Walton = 10.78
50 ...Artis Gilmore = 10.50

Giannis' impressive run jumped him up from 38 to 31 where he passed up
Elgin Baylor
Scottie Pippen
Jason Kidd
Willis Reed
Russell Westbrook
Dwyane Wade

His combination of winning DPOY, FMVP, 2 MVPs with a lot of strong seasons has almost leaped him into top 30. I expect him to have a chance at top 10 if he can keep up his impressive play and suppress KD from winning MVP or FMVP he has strong for top 10.

**UPDATED LIST on PAGE FIVE**

I think these lists have to establish whether or not we are talking longevity and/or peak. Lists are different with peak. Bird is top 3 with peak....you could argue 2 or possibly even 1 when considering all around game.

Longevity you have Kareem.

Combined you have LeBron (who could pass Kareem in longevity)..Kareem played on a better team though despite LeBron desperately seeking good teams the last 10 years. Those Lakers were perfectly made..and he played some with Oscar.

I also think FMVPs and Rings should count less than most....probably wins/win shares too. Depends too much on how good your teammates are. First team all nba, mvp voting finishes, etc should count a lot more.

[clyde21]

appreciate the hard work that went into this but I just can't get behind any list that has Steph 30th all time when he should be a top 15 or 18 guy bar none on his any real list.

im trying to figure out what triggered the low ranking...maybe low volume numbers or the FMVPs? you have guys like Malone and Cp3 and Harden that don't have any rings/fmvps ranked way higher...so it must have something to do with with longevity or just raw volume of box score stats?

but then Kawhi is ranked higher but doesn't have the raw volume or longevity either...but does have the 2 FMVPs...so I guess means either 1) the lack of FMVPs or 2) lack of raw volume of numbers

either way, seems like a lot of context is missing here, which is usually the case when u based on any rankings off formulas.

[VanWest82]

Good effort. I'd like to see the formula.

The issue I have when longevity is weighed so heavily (and it clearly is here - Lebron > Mj, Malone 13th overall) is if you take it to the extremes it forces you to say things like Ray Bourque > Bobby Orr, Emmitt Smith > Jim Brown, or Stockton > DWade (yikes!). I do think we need to value the longevity of a player's peak which is why guys like DRose and Walton are a little further down the list but ultimately I'd way rather default to who was the better player in their prime.

Edit: just to hammer the point home, I could pick at least four and maybe five Dwayne Wade seasons that were all better than Stockton's best season. There are other examples like this on the list. That's where you run into problems imo.

[clyde21]

This is actually a really good ranking, considering the limitations of a formula.

i mean, no offense to the OP...but you don't need to create this complex formula if u wanna create a ranking based on metrics. you can just go to Bball ref and look up all time MVP shares and you'll get a similar list more or less

[Magic Is Magic]

This is actually a really good ranking, considering the limitations of a formula.

i mean, no offense to the OP...but you don't need to create this complex formula if u wanna create a ranking based on metrics. you can just go to Bball ref and look up all time MVP shares and you'll get a similar list more or less

No offense taken whatsoever. I also know there is much more to basketball than just MVP win shares but MVP win shares is a very important metric and is included in my formula.