I don't get the notion that Lakers are absolutely stacked

[Buckeye-NBAFan]

CP3 was salary dumped twice and just lead a team to the finals so that argument point is dead. Ahhh the fg% argument those are things predicated on a lot of things and can be addressed easily unless your clearly washed but seeing that he was still good enough to avg 22ppg 11rpg and 12 apg while carrying a team to the playoffs I’ll say fg% is a weak argument. Ok let’s talk Turnovers. Doncic was right behind him 4.2 per game while avg 4 less assist. No one will tell you doncic is washed. They actually have him as this season possible MVP.

Paul was salary dumped once. And it was for injury and bad personality fit, not performance when healthy.

Yes, if Westbrook just made more shots and missed fewer shots, it would make him a better player. I mean, if I made enough more shots and missed enough fewer shots, I could win MVP. It's just that simple.

But thanks for making my point about turnovers. Doncic now and Westbrook in his prime had similar turnover rates (15-16%), and now Westbrook's rate is the highest of his career (18%).

Dude stop it. He was dumped by Houston then dumped by OKC back to back years. You’re biased and it shows. Get out here with that % talk and Russ is still in his prime. Doncic 4.2 turnover (8.6) Russ 4.8 turners (11.7ast) you trying to argue other wise like it supports your argument is laughable

My definition of salary dump is simple, do the pieces he was traded for have a positive value. The Suns could have easily traded the package they gave for Paul straight up for cap space, so it's a positive. John Wall's contract would have taken more than 1 1st to dump. KCP has negative value on his deal, Kuzma positive, and Harrell neutral, but the amount of salary for the players is not a net positive.

If you believe different, fine.

And of course, when Paul was trade for Harden, the Rockets lost more games, and the Thunder won more games (despite also dealing away George)

Also, rates matter only if you believe every possession counts. If you don't, then sure, raw numbers are fine.

[khufure]

Reminds me of 2012-2013 Lakers with Bryant, Gasol, Nash, Howard, Artest. Or the 2004 Lakers with Kobe, Shaq, Malone, Payton, Grant, etc. Just because you bring great players together does not mean it will work out. When you got older players you think you're getting HOF skills & talent but sometimes you get the end of the gas tank and|or injuries instead. Or like in 2004 some feud or triangle offense fit or whatever means the piece don't add up to be more than the sum of the parts -- they can end up less.

Lebron will be 37 on Dec 30. Anthony Davis will be 29 playoffs next year. Westbrook will be 33. Lebron is pretty fanatical about his work ethic. I would have thought he'd be out of the top-10 by 36 but he was clearly still in it last year. As long as he's healthy I think it's a good chance he's still a top-20 player but he's gonna be sliding more. AD & WB should be fine as long as they stay healthy.

[tamaraw08]

Who are these shooters you speak of? Who can hit the open shot with some regularity?

Nunn isn't much of a shooter. Mathews is washed beyond belief. Ellington used to be a stud shooter, Bazemore too, but can we expect players of advanced age to grind over the regular season for 32-35 mins a game?

These are their stats from the 2020-21 season.

Ellington: 42% from 6 attempts in 22 MPG.
Bazemore: 42% from 3 attempts in 20 MPG.
Monk: 40% from 5 attempts in 20 MPG.
Nunn: 38% from 6 attempts in 30 MPG.

For Matthews, I'm providing his career stats since he had a down year in 2020-21.

Matthews: 38% from 5 attempts in 30 MPG.

Considering these guys are role-players who will likely be used around Lebron, AD and Russell (whose combined salaries are $120m) on a "revolving-door" basis depending on who has the hot hand... and are not the main guys that a team is built around (such as Curry, KD, Klay, etc)... I think that's a pretty darn good level of shooting to have. Don't you?

I'm not saying they're not, because on paper there's potential for them to be a good shooting team. I just have to see it for myself.

I really think we all have to take a larger sample size to have a better idea if these players are really good shooters or not and not the just the previous year they played.
Dennis Schroder shot 38% from 3 before the Lakers traded for him and look what happened.
Troy Daniels also shot 38% in Phoenix and just shot under 35%.
Danny Green shot 45% from 3 in Toronto, we all know what happened.
Quinn Cook shot 40.5% before the Lakers acquired him then just shot 36.5%
Reggie Bullock shot 39% before they traded for him, then just shot 34%.
Malik Monk shot poorly the first 2 years and got better in his contract year and Charlotte passed, what's their reason?
Bazemore also shot well but just played 20 mins, why?
Ellington seems to be the most consistently good shooter, but we'll see.

[LakersSquadup]

Paul was salary dumped once. And it was for injury and bad personality fit, not performance when healthy.

Yes, if Westbrook just made more shots and missed fewer shots, it would make him a better player. I mean, if I made enough more shots and missed enough fewer shots, I could win MVP. It's just that simple.

But thanks for making my point about turnovers. Doncic now and Westbrook in his prime had similar turnover rates (15-16%), and now Westbrook's rate is the highest of his career (18%).

Dude stop it. He was dumped by Houston then dumped by OKC back to back years. You’re biased and it shows. Get out here with that % talk and Russ is still in his prime. Doncic 4.2 turnover (8.6) Russ 4.8 turners (11.7ast) you trying to argue other wise like it supports your argument is laughable

My definition of salary dump is simple, do the pieces he was traded for have a positive value. The Suns could have easily traded the package they gave for Paul straight up for cap space, so it's a positive. John Wall's contract would have taken more than 1 1st to dump. KCP has negative value on his deal, Kuzma positive, and Harrell neutral, but the amount of salary for the players is not a net positive.

If you believe different, fine.

And of course, when Paul was trade for Harden, the Rockets lost more games, and the Thunder won more games (despite also dealing away George)

Also, rates matter only if you believe every possession counts. If you don't, then sure, raw numbers are fine.

Bro ain’t no one asking you your opinion of what a salary dump is. You’re bias and will try all types language gymnastics to fit your argument. The thunder got some good talent in the George trade so stop it. But I’m not gonna argue that Chris Paul didn’t make that talent better because I believe CP should have gotten MVP consideration two years in row. Again you’re talking turnovers but you’re ok with Luka having 4.2 and think Russ is a net negative with 4.8 you’re bias that’s all. You don’t look at things objectively when it comes to Russ or maybe it’s the Lakers you hate. Whatever it is you’re bias

[The411]

Surprised it took just over 80 replies for someone to get to the Warriors. They have a much more intriguing roster than the Lakers. Health is also an issue, but Lakers have no one on the roster like Kuminga and Wiseman is going to play a much bigger role.

[LakersSquadup]

Surprised it took just over 80 replies for someone to get to the Warriors. They have a much more intriguing roster than the Lakers. Health is also an issue, but Lakers have no one on the roster like Kuminga and Wiseman is going to play a much bigger role.

Lol wiseman 11.5ppg 5.8rpg as a starter and you say the Lakers have no like him on their roster lol the other guy is a rookie. I think the warriors will be good but stop it lol

[dhsilv2]

I think LeBron's first big 3 was his best. That being said if LeBron could thrive with Wade he can thrive with WB

Sent from my moto g(8) power lite using RealGM mobile app

Wade was a great defender and a much smarter player. Plus wade was amazing off ball cutting, like top 1% ever level. I've never seen westbrook in that role...maybe he is good at it too? But we'll see.

[tamaraw08]

Surprised it took just over 80 replies for someone to get to the Warriors. They have a much more intriguing roster than the Lakers. Health is also an issue, but Lakers have no one on the roster like Kuminga and Wiseman is going to play a much bigger role.

Otto Porter might be the biggest steal in the offseason. Bjelica is also a very good one.
A lot will depend on Kemba's health.

[HabsAndDubs]

Surprised it took just over 80 replies for someone to get to the Warriors. They have a much more intriguing roster than the Lakers. Health is also an issue, but Lakers have no one on the roster like Kuminga and Wiseman is going to play a much bigger role.

For the Warriors to be sneaky elite or whatever, they’re going to need a ton of things to happen- Klay is going to have to be at least 90% of who he was, Jordan Poole needs to take that next massive step and become an upper tier scoring threat. Wiseman is going to have to take a massive leap, Kuminga, a long term product is going to have to simply be playable in a 10MPG role, Steph is going to have to play at an MVP level, draymond is going to have to learn how to score again, and Kerr can’t dick around with waiting 45 games before trying to be competitive. And then guys like Bjelica, Porter, GP2 are going to have to be better than Bazemore, Wanamaker, Oubre, etc. And to cap it off, Wiggins needs to be as good/better than he was last season.

I think many of those things will happen, whether they all happen and whether it happens this season remains to be seen, but the team has a thinner margin of error than other contenders.

[cupcakesnake]

This ended up kind of a funny thread where some posters are saying "No one thinks they're stacked" and others are saying "they're so stacked wtf are you on".

The cognitive dissonance is strong!

[TheHartBreakKid]

Well, when people are talking about "super stacked", a term I might not necessarily agree with and I think it's overstated due to the name recognition of their players, people are talking about what the team looks like, on paper

On paper if we compare the 2022 team without westbrook to the 2020 team in the playoffs, the teams are fairly similar.

You have Lebron, AD, Dwight, and Rondo. An older version that has surely declined some, but only 1 season apart. The health of Lebron and AD and the level of Lebron's decline will be the most critical factor. I would certainly rather have the 2020 version of these 4, don't get me wrong, But on paper, it's only 1 season apart

I have little doubts that DJ could fill in for Mcgee's limited role, and Melo could provide what Kuz provided.

The rest of the rotation cast is also comparable talent wise;

Dunn, Monk, THT vs KCP, D.Green, Caruso. I would certainly take the 2020 pieces due to fit, but the talent is comparable.

Finally you have the end of the bench:
Bazemore, Ariza, Ellington, and possibly Gasol, vs Waiters, Smith, Morris, Dudley. Without a doubt the 2022 version is more reliable and arguably more talented, and definitely a better fit. Though Morris did come up big in those playoffs.


So you take a team that's lesser, but still comparable to a team that won a championship 1 calendar year ago, and you add a player like Westbrook.

It's hard to argue that this team isn't more talented. So I have no problem with people saying the Lakers are stacked. As long as it's not a tired old bs argument regarding how many allstars lebron is playing with, hyping up Melo, Dwight, DJ, Rondo and Gasol despite all of them basically being minimum players/ players who were bought out.

But I also don't think this team is the clear favorites, or that they will surely be better than the 2020 team. Lebron's potential decline could be a huge factor. Westbrook's fit and the fit of the rotation guys could easily be a bigger concern that the talent difference might not be able to make up for. And that's not even mentioning injuries....the 2020 Lakers avoided any major injuries in the playoffs. With this team's age, it's hard to bet on the same thing happening this year.

Overall though they did a great, great job of setting themselves up to compete this year. It was clear that the team needed more talent, and they certainly got that. Now it's up to the coaching staff and Lebron/Westbrook to make things work, and up to bball gods that this team stays healthy enough (and also the coaching staff to make sure the team the stars are big rested and the depth is being leveraged during the regular season)

[TheHartBreakKid]

This ended up kind of a funny thread where some posters are saying "No one thinks they're stacked" and others are saying "they're so stacked wtf are you on".

The cognitive dissonance is strong!

The general board, where there are no gray areas

[tamaraw08]

Well, when people are talking about "super stacked", a term I might not necessarily agree with and I think it's overstated due to the name recognition of their players, people are talking about what the team looks like, on paper

On paper if we compare the 2022 team without westbrook to the 2020 team in the playoffs, the teams are fairly similar.

You have Lebron, AD, Dwight, and Rondo. An older version that has surely declined some, but only 1 season apart. The health of Lebron and AD and the level of Lebron's decline will be the most critical factor. I would certainly rather have the 2020 version of these 4, don't get me wrong, But on paper, it's only 1 season apart

I have little doubts that DJ could fill in for Mcgee's limited role, and Melo could provide what Kuz provided.

The rest of the rotation cast is also comparable talent wise;

Dunn, Monk, THT vs KCP, D.Green, Caruso. I would certainly take the 2020 pieces due to fit, but the talent is comparable.

Finally you have the end of the bench:
Bazemore, Ariza, Ellington, and possibly Gasol, vs Waiters, Smith, Morris, Dudley. Without a doubt the 2022 version is more reliable and arguably more talented, and definitely a better fit. Though Morris did come up big in those playoffs.


So you take a team that's lesser, but still comparable to a team that won a championship 1 calendar year ago, and you add a player like Westbrook.

It's hard to argue that this team isn't more talented. So I have no problem with people saying the Lakers are stacked. As long as it's not a tired old bs argument regarding how many allstars lebron is playing with, hyping up Melo, Dwight, DJ, Rondo and Gasol despite all of them basically being minimum players/ players who were bought out.

But I also don't think this team is the clear favorites, or that they will surely be better than the 2020 team. Lebron's potential decline could be a huge factor. Westbrook's fit and the fit of the rotation guys could easily be a bigger concern that the talent difference might not be able to make up for. And that's not even mentioning injuries....the 2020 Lakers avoided any major injuries in the playoffs. With this team's age, it's hard to bet on the same thing happening this year.

Overall though they did a great, great job of setting themselves up to compete this year. It was clear that the team needed more talent, and they certainly got that. Now it's up to the coaching staff and Lebron/Westbrook to make things work, and up to bball gods that this team stays healthy enough (and also the coaching staff to make sure the team the stars are big rested and the depth is being leveraged during the regular season)

Great post although I strongly believe that Vogel would also be critical for them here. He put his stamp as a very good defensive coach, but he also relied heavily on very good defenders before while benching Marc, Harrell, THT, bec they were getting targeted on defense. Well no more Caruso, KCP, Kuzma, Matthews etc, in comes shooters with some spotty defense. Rob hired Bazemore and an aging Ariza so We shall see if Frank can truly coach this team come up with a workable defensive system and punish teams for trying to clog up the driving lanes.

[whitehops]

don't have much to contribute but man i had no idea westbrook's shot has deteriorated so much. he peaked both in 3P and FT in 2017 and fell off a cliff since then.

this team's defense better be stellar in the post season because they are going to give away a lot of points by missing 3's and free throws. last season AD, lebron and westbrook combined to shoot .687 from the line on about 18 attempts per game. most of their other guys are good free throw shooters but they aren't going to get to the line much.

[LakersSquadup]

don't have much to contribute

Agreed you don’t.

[UcanUwill]

Lol this list is hilarious now I know not to take you serious lol

Likewise. Westbrook is not better than any of these players.

I put a lot of value on leadership, which isnt something that is reflected in stats. To me WB is easily a top 3-5 leader and locker room presence in the game and it makes up for a lot of in-game shortcomings, because it elevates other guys around him. We've seen a bunch of guys have their best seasons around him, and call him the best teammate they've ever had.

To me he's easily better than:

Gobert
Bam
Young
Zion
Beal

He's comparable, but IMO also better than:

Irving - WB can turn his defense on in a way KI cant, and is worlds better passer, rebounder and is a top tier leader, the latter which KI is the opposite of.

Tatum - Tatum is better defender and scorer, but I give WB the edge for now due to playmaking, rebounding and mainly leadership.

Mitchell - WB is better at everything except scoring. You can argue defense, Mitch is more consistent, but WB is as good when he turns it on for certain matchups.

Lillard - It's a wash, I prefer WB's playmaking and defense, but I admit I might be wrong on this now.

Paul - I think WB has a gear CP3 just doesn't have anymore.

This is fascinating take, I really appreciate it. I myself do not see Wesbrook in this light at all. He might be best guy in the locker room, but his constant low IQ plays on the court just breaks it for me. He is stat stuffer and thats about it, I dont know what guys were better under him, but lots of were worst under him, Sabonis, Oladipo comes to mind, and his reign with Durant was so frustrating cause everyone saw Durant needed more touches, but RW was a point guard who dribbles the ball down the court and takes a shot way too much. I dont like talking in cliches, but hes just not the guy who turns very good team into great, if Lakers had Chris Paul instead of him right now, I would be much more higher on them.

And I don't want to sound that I think its just the fit, or that the fit itself is very bad. There is a value in having Westbrook if you want to load manage LeBron or just take a load off of him, fine, but when games will be close and it will be final minutes, I dont see how Russell will contribute at top 20 NBA player level, not even close. He will not have the ball, he will not space the floor and he will get frustrated.

[John Murdoch]

They are stacked relative to the rest of the leauge in terms of top heavy teams. Teams like Milwaukee..Denver..Phoenix..Utah..etc are still deeper tho so its a matter of how much Nets and Lakers rest their big 3 for post season.

[Myth]

I wouldn't say "absolutely" stacked, but they are pretty darn close. Yes, they are "old," but they still have a top 5 player, a top 10 player, a 3rd man who is still an all-star talent and former MVP, and then quite a few veteran role players who are former all-stars that are likely to contribute well in their more limited roles. They aren't the Nets, but they are still the second most "stacked" team currently in the league.

[Ballerhogger]

This ended up kind of a funny thread where some posters are saying "No one thinks they're stacked" and others are saying "they're so stacked wtf are you on".

The cognitive dissonance is strong!

its laker tradition to make fans go crazy!

[SecondTake]

This team is very good. My concerns are fit, age and Russ being a chronic underachiever. Of course this team CAN come out of the west, but it's crazy to think that the Suns, Denver, Clips if Kawhi comes back, Utah aren 't all in the mix. This team is NOT head and shoulders above the rest of the west. Westbrook has only made it to the finals once with teams of similar talent.

Stop dancing answer the questions all of them.

Stop dancing around what? Russ has never won a chip despite many rosters equipped to do just that. Now with Lebron old, AD still injury prone and Westbrook worse than he's ever been, getting out of the west is not a lock. there's nothing controversial about that opinion. That's an opinion Vegas agrees with. 52.5 over under? Yikes.

You must be hard of comprehension. I'll list his questions below, one below another to make it easy for you. Answer each one directly and clearly.

How many finals has james harden been to?
How many has durant been to without the warriors?
Did the wiz make it to the playoffs in 2020?
How far has bradley beal gone without Russ?

I hope this easy to scan list of questions is clear enough for you. I even bolded them to make it easier for you to read.