If not Denver, where does Jokic land in 2023?

Post #101 » by **HMFFL** » Wed Dec 1, 2021 4:20 am

pro24 wrote:Please, the purpose of this thread is not to debate whether Jokic returns to Denver or not. It is to debate which non Denver team he would choose in the summer of 23 in the case he decided to leave Denver.

Here are my top 3 options for Joker considering fit and cap space:
1. Toronto.
Should be easy to get rid of Siakam, even if not, they would have the cap space. Good coach, GM, team culture. Not too old or young team that plays defense, that could use his offense, doesn’t have overly ball dominant players.
2. Grizzlies
They have cap space, he should be a great fit with Morant and JJJ.
3. Dallas
I don’t think he is a great fit with Luka (Is Luka capable of not hunching over at half court when he doesn’t have the ball) but Luka is Luka. KP would be in his last year (PO) and it shouldn’t be too difficult to get rid of him.

I believe it's well known that Jokic would be a perfect fit with Luka so I disagree with you. Dallas had intentions to pursue Giannis, not that they had a chance, because Portland seemed to be the favorite had he left Milwaukee, so Dallas will turn their attention to Jokic when the time comes. In the meantime, Mark Cuban needs to find ways to improve his product, because Luka is just about all Dallas has.

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DroseReturnChi · Post #102 » by **DroseReturnChi** » Wed Dec 1, 2021 4:26 am

Clyde Frazier wrote:Even with the injury history of his teammates I doubt he leaves. He definitely cares about winning, but also feel like he has the "these are the cards I've been dealt" mindset. He probably likes the lack of national media attention he gets in Denver.

All that said, sure he could end up leaving. Spurs is an interesting possibility.

mostly agree but him teaming up with luka is a no brainer if his team gets dumpstered.
dallas seems a good placee spurs the next best alternative if he leaves.

DroseReturnChi · Post #103 » by **DroseReturnChi** » Wed Dec 1, 2021 4:27 am

Synciere wrote:Why leave? He'll be eligible for one of the biggest contracts in sports' history. Take the money and run run run!!!!

what current trend is they take the money and then run. but i could see joker interested more in winning he doesnt care abt money.

Post #104 » by **HMFFL** » Wed Dec 1, 2021 4:29 am

DroseReturnChi wrote:
Synciere wrote:Why leave? He'll be eligible for one of the biggest contracts in sports' history. Take the money and run run run!!!!

what current trend is they take the money and then run. but i could see joker interested more in winning he doesnt care abt money.

Denver doesn't look very promising at the moment. They maxed MPJ out and now he's out for the season so I don't know why Jokic leaving would shock some fans.

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pro24 · Post #105 » by **pro24** » Wed Dec 1, 2021 4:33 am

I would be worried about Luka's lack of willingness to move without the ball which adds to Jokic's impact and his lack of effort on defense.

Also, other than Steph Curry who is great at moving without the ball, I think Jokic fits better with a superstar that is a great defender like Giannis or AD.

Jokic has insane defensive metrics but I and others don't quite fully believe them.

TravisScott55 · Post #106 » by **TravisScott55** » Wed Dec 1, 2021 5:07 am

He ain't leaving Denver, but the Euros seem to like Toronto

Tor_Raps · Post #107 » by **Tor_Raps** » Wed Dec 1, 2021 5:36 am

TravisScott55 wrote:He ain't leaving Denver, but the Euros seem to like Toronto

Makes up for all the Americans who hate Toronto. Thank God the game is trending more internationally lol.

Synciere · Post #108 » by **Synciere** » Wed Dec 1, 2021 11:48 am

HMFFL wrote:
DroseReturnChi wrote:
Synciere wrote:Why leave? He'll be eligible for one of the biggest contracts in sports' history. Take the money and run run run!!!!

what current trend is they take the money and then run. but i could see joker interested more in winning he doesnt care abt money.
Denver doesn't look very promising at the moment. They maxed MPJ out and now he's out for the season so I don't know why Jokic leaving would shock some fans.

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1. We don’t know his real motivations. Players are just people, and some will say the right thing to media and favs and then do the exact opposite, and that’s their right!

2. There’s still time for Denver to right the ship. The injuries are happening now but by 2023 Murray and Porter should be healthy again. Dozier too. Denver could easily be a contender by then.

3. Jokic doesn’t have the off court earnings of some of these other guys. There’s no 100 million from Nike to cushion a move to another team taking less money. This is exactly what most fans were asking for in terms of home teams being able to offer more. I didn’t, and don’t, agree with it, but understand it.

wegotthabeet · Post #109 » by **wegotthabeet** » Wed Dec 1, 2021 1:28 pm

Lunartic wrote:
wegotthabeet wrote:
Lunartic wrote:

No, it's really not debatable.

Murray is probably his best teammate - so far his best year he averaged
21/4/4 .590TS with poor defense

Zach put up
27/5/5 .634 TS on poor defense

Zach has improved to being average on defense and even during a slightly down scoring year he's averaging more ppg on better efficiency than Murray ever has.

Very very few players have ever averaged 27+ on .600 TS.

Unless you're suggesting there's another Nugget's player thats better than Murray/Lavine?

Yeah it's debatable. I'm suggesting that Lavine hasn't done anything in the playoffs and Murray has. I like Lavine, but I want to see those type of stats in meaningful games. 8 seasons without a playoff game doesn't go unnoticed. If he can replicate that type of production in the post season then I'll agree with you. Until then his stats are meaningless to me. He's been a first option on lottery teams up until now.

Having good games in the playoffs doesn't make an inferior player better than a clearly superior player.
Murray has never ever been asked to carry his team offensively and always had a superior player that could get him space + get him shots.

Other than playing some extra games at the end of the season, what metrics are you using to determine Murray is better than Lavine? Every single poster on this board + every single GM would take Zach over Murray in a heartbeat.

How exactly does a player making the playoffs on a far better team make them a better player than someone with better stats/ability/accolades? Murray has never even made an all-star game.

Both Murray and Lavine are number 2 options though if you're team has championship aspirations. Only difference is you're treating one guy like he's a number 1 guy and he isn't or at least hasn't proven he can be yet. Empty stats on lottery teams don't really impress me. Right now he's like the Kevin Love of guards, big stats and zero accomplishments. Actually Love was putting up better stats at the same age.

Lunartic · Post #110 » by **Lunartic** » Wed Dec 1, 2021 5:35 pm

wegotthabeet wrote:
Lunartic wrote:
wegotthabeet wrote:
Yeah it's debatable. I'm suggesting that Lavine hasn't done anything in the playoffs and Murray has. I like Lavine, but I want to see those type of stats in meaningful games. 8 seasons without a playoff game doesn't go unnoticed. If he can replicate that type of production in the post season then I'll agree with you. Until then his stats are meaningless to me. He's been a first option on lottery teams up until now.

Having good games in the playoffs doesn't make an inferior player better than a clearly superior player.
Murray has never ever been asked to carry his team offensively and always had a superior player that could get him space + get him shots.

Other than playing some extra games at the end of the season, what metrics are you using to determine Murray is better than Lavine? Every single poster on this board + every single GM would take Zach over Murray in a heartbeat.

How exactly does a player making the playoffs on a far better team make them a better player than someone with better stats/ability/accolades? Murray has never even made an all-star game.

Both Murray and Lavine are number 2 options though if you're team has championship aspirations. Only difference is you're treating one guy like he's a number 1 guy and he isn't or at least hasn't proven he can be yet. Empty stats on lottery teams don't really impress me. Right now he's like the Kevin Love of guards, big stats and zero accomplishments. Actually Love was putting up better stats at the same age.

Number one option applies to who takes the most shots on the team

A legit #1 option would take and make them at very good/elite efficiency.

Murray doesn't even take the most FGA on his team so yeah he's not the first option and likely never would be. His efficiency and scoring is lower than Zach's.

Lavine actually has been the #1 option on the Bulls ever since he joined and has carried the Bull's offense consistently. This season is the first season he has legit scoring help in DDR and the Bulls are 2nd in the East.

I understand your logic but it really is shallow. The idea that a player suddenly becomes better when they make the playoffs or even wins a title is really silly. Was Jordan a worse player the year before Pippen joined? Did Lebron magically improve the moment he teamed up with Wade/Bosh?

Ask yourself this, do you think Murray would have accomplished more with the Bulls than Lavine?

Mickey8 · Post #111 » by **Mickey8** » Wed Dec 1, 2021 5:38 pm

If he decide to leave Denver I would like to see him in Chicago or New York (Knicks).

Claud · Post #112 » by **Claud** » Wed Dec 1, 2021 6:24 pm

BK with KD 8-)

meekrab · Post #113 » by **meekrab** » Wed Dec 1, 2021 6:32 pm

Chicago has Vucevic coming off the books that offseason; Jokic would step right in to a similar role where he isn't asked to do quite as much.

Post #114 » by **The Rebel** » Wed Dec 1, 2021 6:38 pm

For all those hoping he joins their team, I hope your team loses their star so you can learn what it feel like to watch a team being built only to watch the guy they are building around leave in their prime.

As for where he would go if he leaves, Utah may get less attention so let's go with that. This is a guy who does not go out in Denver because he doesn't like the attention. He is a guy who hates national attention and does not want to be a superstar (one reason the refs and league do what the can to prevent him being the superstar he has become. )

Johnny Firpo · Post #115 » by **Johnny Firpo** » Wed Dec 1, 2021 6:44 pm

HMFFL wrote:I believe it's well known that Jokic would be a perfect fit with Luka so I disagree with you. Dallas had intentions to pursue Giannis, not that they had a chance, because Portland seemed to be the favorite had he left Milwaukee, so Dallas will turn their attention to Jokic when the time comes. In the meantime, Mark Cuban needs to find ways to improve his product, because Luka is just about all Dallas has.

Never heard of the Giannis to Portland thing. What was that about? Agree with the rest, Cuban has some work to do.

Johnny Firpo · Post #116 » by **Johnny Firpo** » Wed Dec 1, 2021 6:45 pm

Claud wrote:BK with KD

Not gonna lie, I would watch that duo every night (I guess I would watch Jokic every night anyway, but still.

).

Post #117 » by **The Rebel** » Wed Dec 1, 2021 6:49 pm

HMFFL wrote:
DroseReturnChi wrote:
Synciere wrote:Why leave? He'll be eligible for one of the biggest contracts in sports' history. Take the money and run run run!!!!

what current trend is they take the money and then run. but i could see joker interested more in winning he doesnt care abt money.
Denver doesn't look very promising at the moment. They maxed MPJ out and now he's out for the season so I don't know why Jokic leaving would shock some fans.

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Maybe you don't know about the Nuggets drafting history, MPJ may not matter. Right now it looks like the already have a 1st and a 2nd year guy that are going to be long term starting quality players. IF Hyland and Nnaji continue on their current development, than we will still have a very high quality starting 5 if Murray returns to even close to the player he was prior to injury.

wegotthabeet · Post #118 » by **wegotthabeet** » Wed Dec 1, 2021 7:29 pm

Lunartic wrote:
wegotthabeet wrote:
Lunartic wrote:
Having good games in the playoffs doesn't make an inferior player better than a clearly superior player.
Murray has never ever been asked to carry his team offensively and always had a superior player that could get him space + get him shots.

Other than playing some extra games at the end of the season, what metrics are you using to determine Murray is better than Lavine? Every single poster on this board + every single GM would take Zach over Murray in a heartbeat.

How exactly does a player making the playoffs on a far better team make them a better player than someone with better stats/ability/accolades? Murray has never even made an all-star game.

Both Murray and Lavine are number 2 options though if you're team has championship aspirations. Only difference is you're treating one guy like he's a number 1 guy and he isn't or at least hasn't proven he can be yet. Empty stats on lottery teams don't really impress me. Right now he's like the Kevin Love of guards, big stats and zero accomplishments. Actually Love was putting up better stats at the same age.

Number one option applies to who takes the most shots on the team

A legit #1 option would take and make them at very good/elite efficiency.

Murray doesn't even take the most FGA on his team so yeah he's not the first option and likely never would be. His efficiency and scoring is lower than Zach's.

Lavine actually has been the #1 option on the Bulls ever since he joined and has carried the Bull's offense consistently. This season is the first season he has legit scoring help in DDR and the Bulls are 2nd in the East.

I understand your logic but it really is shallow. The idea that a player suddenly becomes better when they make the playoffs or even wins a title is really silly. Was Jordan a worse player the year before Pippen joined? Did Lebron magically improve the moment he teamed up with Wade/Bosh?

Ask yourself this, do you think Murray would have accomplished more with the Bulls than Lavine?

Probably not. Would Denver have accomplished more with Lavine? Probably not as well. Neither is a legit number 1 option.

Please don't ever mention Lavine amongst Jordan or Lebron. He carried the Bulls offence straight to the lottery.

chilluminati · Post #119 » by **chilluminati** » Wed Dec 1, 2021 7:34 pm

Jokic on the Bulls would be awesome, but this dude is staying a Nugget so long as they stay semi relevant winningwise

Wolveswin · Post #120 » by **Wolveswin** » Wed Dec 1, 2021 7:37 pm

meekrab wrote:Chicago has Vucevic coming off the books that offseason; Jokic would step right in to a similar role where he isn't asked to do quite as much.

Doesn’t matter who is coming off the books if Bulls still don’t have the max (45M’ish) to sign Jokic.

And BTW, losing Vucevic, dumping players (DD, others) to make cap space room for any free agent, makes Chicago less less attractive destination.