DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 (FINAL poll reset)

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Who's on your DPOY ballot? (Pick 3.)

Jaren Jackson Jr.
83
21%
Brook Lopez
87
22%
Giannis Antetokounmpo
60
15%
Evan Mobley
37
9%
Bam Adebayo
17
4%
Nic Claxton
17
4%
Jarrett Allen
6
2%
Alex Caruso
15
4%
Jaden McDaniels
29
7%
Other
49
12%
 
Total votes: 400

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Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 

Post#101 » by Kurtz » Tue Dec 20, 2022 4:47 am

Bmaasse wrote:
Kurtz wrote:
yoyoboy wrote:Appreciate the response. I guess my thinking is it's really hard to put too much stock into the on/off especially when you're talking about the Raptors really not playing like much more than a slightly above average defense with OG on the court. I know the lack of rim protection is an issue, but when I look around OG, I see a lot of guys who are historically pretty good defenders across the board, altogether offering a lot of length and versatility. Not to mention Nurse is a very good defensive coach. I don't know if I really buy the idea that over the course of the season they would be close to the worst defense in the league without OG. This to me isn't really a KG on Minny situation where he was bringing crazy defensive impact to the table amidst a terrible roster,

I just think it's hard for wings to bring the same kind of defensive value to the table as rim protectors. While OG is seen as a highly versatile defender because of his ability to guard the different positions 1-on-1, your versatility is capped when you're not providing that extra value of deterring shots at the hoop. Plus, if we were to heavily consider the on-off right now, then we'd be looking at Mobley as a big liability for the Cavs, making the Cavs' DRTG 6.6 points per 100 worse when he's on the floor, which would work in JA's favor in this argument. And then you just look at the Cavs' roster and you really do see a lot of guys with pretty bad defensive reputations playing the lion's share of the minutes, like Garland, LeVert, Mitchell, Love, and Cedi. Mobley and Allen obviously make things easier for each other, but in order to sustain a #1 ranked defense, we basically need both guys playing at DPOY levels just to cover for all the holes elsewhere.

I don't mind OG getting mentioned as an All-Defensive Team guy. I just think he has a pretty weak case when you compare him to the rim protectors in the conversation.


Traditionally, it's undeniable that the DPOY voting has favoured the C position due to its outsized influence on the game. However, in recent years, as offenses have become more and more perimeter oriented, I think the importance of the dominant post defender has diminished in comparison to a versatile defender that can guard and disrupt the perimeter and is able to defend anyone on a switch, while also being able to hold their own and help out down low when the occasion calls for it.

I'm looking at the Pelicans-Bucks box score tonight, and I see that JV put up 38/17 while hitting 7 threes on Brook. That doesn't surprise me, given that Brook wears that shock collar that goes off anytime he's more than 10 feet from his basket on defense. Imo that type of defender doesn't scream DPOY in the modern game - give me a more versatile who defends all over the floor, like an OG, Draymond, Simmons, Herb Jones/Mobley (eventually), etc.


They key Stat in that box score was Zion only scoring 18 points. Brook could have played Jonas tighter, but that wasn't the game plan because New Orleans isn't going to win many games relying on JV to jack 3s. NO had no chance scoring anything in the paint and that was all Brook.


You watched the game and I did not - but looking at the minutes distribution, wouldn't Giannis have been the primary defender on Zion tonight? Or was he hidden on Herb?
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Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 

Post#102 » by Bmaasse » Tue Dec 20, 2022 4:55 am

Kurtz wrote:
Bmaasse wrote:
Kurtz wrote:
Traditionally, it's undeniable that the DPOY voting has favoured the C position due to its outsized influence on the game. However, in recent years, as offenses have become more and more perimeter oriented, I think the importance of the dominant post defender has diminished in comparison to a versatile defender that can guard and disrupt the perimeter and is able to defend anyone on a switch, while also being able to hold their own and help out down low when the occasion calls for it.

I'm looking at the Pelicans-Bucks box score tonight, and I see that JV put up 38/17 while hitting 7 threes on Brook. That doesn't surprise me, given that Brook wears that shock collar that goes off anytime he's more than 10 feet from his basket on defense. Imo that type of defender doesn't scream DPOY in the modern game - give me a more versatile who defends all over the floor, like an OG, Draymond, Simmons, Herb Jones/Mobley (eventually), etc.


They key Stat in that box score was Zion only scoring 18 points. Brook could have played Jonas tighter, but that wasn't the game plan because New Orleans isn't going to win many games relying on JV to jack 3s. NO had no chance scoring anything in the paint and that was all Brook.


You watched the game and I did not - but looking at the minutes distribution, wouldn't Giannis have been the primary defender on Zion tonight? Or was he hidden on Herb?


Nope that assignment actually went to Jrue. But Lopez played drop and we conceded those 3s by JV. Unfortunately he got hot, (6 in the first half), but Zion was frustrated, picked up a tech, and basically couldn't get anything going until late in the fourth.
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Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 

Post#103 » by Kurtz » Tue Dec 20, 2022 5:01 am

Bmaasse wrote:
Kurtz wrote:
Bmaasse wrote:
They key Stat in that box score was Zion only scoring 18 points. Brook could have played Jonas tighter, but that wasn't the game plan because New Orleans isn't going to win many games relying on JV to jack 3s. NO had no chance scoring anything in the paint and that was all Brook.


You watched the game and I did not - but looking at the minutes distribution, wouldn't Giannis have been the primary defender on Zion tonight? Or was he hidden on Herb?


Nope that assignment actually went to Jrue. But Lopez played drop and we conceded those 3s by JV. Unfortunately he got hot, (6 in the first half), but Zion was frustrated, picked up a tech, and basically couldn't get anything going until late in the fourth.


You'll probably disagree, but imo Jrue's been the most valuable defender on your team since the day you traded for him (despite the other 2 guys getting all the accolades).
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Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 

Post#104 » by Bmaasse » Tue Dec 20, 2022 5:21 am

Kurtz wrote:
Bmaasse wrote:
Kurtz wrote:
You watched the game and I did not - but looking at the minutes distribution, wouldn't Giannis have been the primary defender on Zion tonight? Or was he hidden on Herb?


Nope that assignment actually went to Jrue. But Lopez played drop and we conceded those 3s by JV. Unfortunately he got hot, (6 in the first half), but Zion was frustrated, picked up a tech, and basically couldn't get anything going until late in the fourth.


You'll probably disagree, but imo Jrue's been the most valuable defender on your team since the day you traded for him (despite the other 2 guys getting all the accolades).


I won't disagree at all, but when it comes to Jrue, we know what he brings on a nightly so it's really no surprise. With Brook, many Bucks fans thought he was washed 2 seasons ago and wanted him gone.

This guy then goes and has back surgery at the age of 34, and is now playing out of his mind on both ends of the floor. Leads the league in blocks by a huge margin, when most of us didn't even think he'd be able to jump anymore. Plus he's just a fun guy so yeah, it's the ultimate feel good story.
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Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 

Post#105 » by cupcakesnake » Tue Dec 20, 2022 1:39 pm

yoyoboy wrote:
cupcakesnake wrote:
yoyoboy wrote:OG behind the 16th ranked defense has more votes than Allen (or Mobley who’s not even in the poll) on the #1 defense that’s a full point ahead of the second place team in DRTG. Totally makes sense.


I'll reset the poll soon probably to get a more updated opinion (probably after christmas). OG got most of those votes early when he was healthy and the Raps looked like they were just waiting for Siakam to return before they went on a run.

To be fair, the Raptors falling apart in OG's absence isn't exactly a huge case against him. The Raps have lost all 4 games since he's been out. They've been a top 10 defense with him on the floor (110 Drtg despite not having a real rim protector in the rotation), and play like the worst defense in the league with him off the floor (118 Drtg).

(To be clear I currently have Brook and Jarrett ahead of OG on my personal ballot.)

Brook and Jarrett Allen both play on teams where the defense remains elite when they're off the floor. We know the DPOY is going to to someone on a top 5ish defense, and if the Raptors don't turn their season around, OG will not be in the running for this award. But I think we go a little too far when assessing individual defense and not giving great defenders on not-great-defensive teams credit. I think a lot about how Shawn Marion was one of the best defenders of his generation (not DPOY level but close imo), but he never made a single all-defense team. His job was always covering up holes and keeping weak defensive personnel out of the gutter. Never got any credit because we're lazy and we want to correlate team defensive success.

Brook and Jarrett on their own don't make top 5 defenses. No one does. Having 2 elite defensive bigs might make a top 5 defense on its own though haha.

My only point is here is that we can't just be like: Cleveland/Milwaukee top 5 defense=Brook or Giannis or Jarrett or Mobley the best defender. The voters will do that, but we can be more nunanced here at realgm if we want. I'm just as interested in the cases of Alex Caruso, OG, Gobert, Jarred Vanderbilt, Claxton as I am in the anchor's of the leagues best defenses.

Appreciate the response. I guess my thinking is it's really hard to put too much stock into the on/off especially when you're talking about the Raptors really not playing like much more than a slightly above average defense with OG on the court. I know the lack of rim protection is an issue, but when I look around OG, I see a lot of guys who are historically pretty good defenders across the board, altogether offering a lot of length and versatility. Not to mention Nurse is a very good defensive coach. I don't know if I really buy the idea that over the course of the season they would be close to the worst defense in the league without OG. This to me isn't really a KG on Minny situation where he was bringing crazy defensive impact to the table amidst a terrible roster,

I just think it's hard for wings to bring the same kind of defensive value to the table as rim protectors. While OG is seen as a highly versatile defender because of his ability to guard the different positions 1-on-1, your versatility is capped when you're not providing that extra value of deterring shots at the hoop. Plus, if we were to heavily consider the on-off right now, then we'd be looking at Mobley as a big liability for the Cavs, making the Cavs' DRTG 6.6 points per 100 worse when he's on the floor, which would work in JA's favor in this argument. And then you just look at the Cavs' roster and you really do see a lot of guys with pretty bad defensive reputations playing the lion's share of the minutes, like Garland, LeVert, Mitchell, Love, and Cedi. Mobley and Allen obviously make things easier for each other, but in order to sustain a #1 ranked defense, we basically need both guys playing at DPOY levels just to cover for all the holes elsewhere.

I don't mind OG getting mentioned as an All-Defensive Team guy. I just think he has a pretty weak case when you compare him to the rim protectors in the conversation.


Definitely all reasonable points and interesting to talk about.

(And once again, I'd like to preface what I'm about to say with a reminder that I'm not currently considering OG the frontrunner here. I already agree with you that Lopez and Allen should be on top of everyone's ballot, and that the Raptors poor defense essentially disqualifies him from serious consideration)

- I'm also of the opinion that rim protectors are inherently more valuable than matchup defenders. I'm still rolling my eyes at the Marcus Smart selection last year (despite thinking he's a fantastic all around defender). But what OG is doing this year is more similar to a Draymond Green than a Marcus Smart (or Kawhi Leonard even). His matchup defense has been fantastic for years, and I've never thought of him as a serious candidate for this award before now. But this year he's not only bringing the same man-to-man and absolutely turning scorers off (the end of the Phili game last night, despite the Raptors loss, featured OG shutting down Joel Embiid multiple times in crunch time and switching onto Harden to do the same), he's now the Raptors biggest impact help defender. He's leading the NBA in steals, not because he's just picking ball handlers pockets, but because he makes it near impossible to pass to the weakside when he's over there. While it isn't rim protection, he's doing something similar behind the point of attack, and he's doing it better than anyone I've ever seen in this kind of action.

- Speaking of the defensive system in Toronto, I think it's interesting but it's important to note that it hasn't really been working. They're a top 10 defense when they're healthy, but it seems like anything less than near-perfect health, and the holes pop up. Nick Nurse is definitely a genius defensive coach, but his wild experiment this year is failing a bit. The Raptors try to leverage length and quicks to overwhelm the ball, force turnovers, and essentially stop shot attempts from even happening. They're accomplishing this (leading the NBA in turnovers by a healthy margin), but at the expense of giving up easy buckets every time they don't force a turnover (bottom 3 in opponents efg% !). I think Nurse believed he could find a way to compensate for not having a primary rim protector, but right now it's not looking good. I expect the Raps to surge back into the top 10 if they're healthy, but I don't think there's any chance they defend as solidly as a team like the Cavs, Bucks, or Grizzlies.

- So about that personnel. Like you said, a lot of historically good defenders, who I think are all legit good defenders. Siakam has looked awesome on defense. FVV has been banged up and slower, but is still very smart and strong, Thadd Young is still an awesome defender when he plays. But they haven't played a lot of minutes as a group. Siakam missed all those games, and OG went down as soon as Siakam came back. Otto Porter and Precious Achiuwa were the desired rotation 5s, and they've barely played. It's been a lot of rookie Koloko and Juancho Hernangomez (who's defense is not quite at peak Bo Cruz levels). I think the Raptors were already cheating with this defensive system, and might have gotten away with it, but injuries have prevented them from being able to really execute their ambitious plan.

- About the on/off. I don't cite on/off as any kind of conversation ender. On/off requires understanding the context. Like you know from watching games that Mobley is an absolute defensive dynamo, and also that he has been asked to prop up some weaker defensive lineups when Jarrett Allen sits. I get that you see that list of personnel and refuse to accept that OG is doing some sort of defensive carry job. But when you watch the Raps and understand the scheme and strategy, it becomes apparent pretty quickly that OG is the whole defensive system. Especially when Siakam was out and the Raps had no half-court offense, they survived on the back of OG shutting down things on the backline (again not protecting the rim, but making it too difficult to pass out of the Raps traps) and generating extra possessions for the Raps to score in transition. OG misses 4 games and the Raptors' defense PLUMMETED from 11th to 20th. They were routinely putting up DRtgs in the 120s with him out. He's back 1 game, and they manage a 102 DRtg against Phili (who has been scorching everyone since Harden came back).

This is not "my case for OG DPOY". But if he keeps this up, all year I'm going to be pointing out what a special defensive season he's having. So far, it's been the best help defense from a wing I've seen since Scottie Pippen combined with his 99th percentile on-ball defense. But I watch plenty of Cavs and Grizzlies, so I absolutely know what a MONSTER Jarrett Allen is, how good Mobley is, and how terrifying the Block Panther's rim protection has become. It's very difficult to compare the weirdness of the Raps and OG's impact there, to the very obvious and successful backline work of these mobile bigs.
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Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 

Post#106 » by cupcakesnake » Tue Dec 20, 2022 1:43 pm

I'm going to reset the poll around Christmas by the way! I'll be reviewing peoples posts to think about who to add and who to drop.

Like/possible adds: Claxton, Mobley, JJJ,
Possible drops: Wiggins, Anthony Davis, Myles Turner

Lots of other guys I'd like to include on the list but polls can only be 10. I'll probably rest the poll 2 more times this season.
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Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 

Post#107 » by cupcakesnake » Tue Dec 20, 2022 2:02 pm

Kurtz wrote:
Traditionally, it's undeniable that the DPOY voting has favoured the C position due to its outsized influence on the game. However, in recent years, as offenses have become more and more perimeter oriented, I think the importance of the dominant post defender has diminished in comparison to a versatile defender that can guard and disrupt the perimeter and is able to defend anyone on a switch, while also being able to hold their own and help out down low when the occasion calls for it.

I'm looking at the Pelicans-Bucks box score tonight, and I see that JV put up 38/17 while hitting 7 threes on Brook. That doesn't surprise me, given that Brook wears that shock collar that goes off anytime he's more than 10 feet from his basket on defense. Imo that type of defender doesn't scream DPOY in the modern game - give me a more versatile who defends all over the floor, like an OG, Draymond, Simmons, Herb Jones/Mobley (eventually), etc.


I get this thinking if you really focus on matchup defending, but in reality this isn't how NBA defense works and the rim-protecting big man is as important as ever. I'm sure you must feel this as a Raps fan who watches an incredible collection of the kind of defender you're talking about, still struggle night to night without that primary rim protector.

Now lots of teams have managed to be dominant defenses without the elite center (Pippen Bulls, Bad Boy Pistons, 80s Bucks, the Warriors post-Bogut), but 90% of the best defenses ever (or even the best recent defenses) are still built on paint protection from a big.

Even if we look at just this year, Cleveland is dominant with its dual-rim protector look despite not having much in the ways of defensive personnel on the perimeter and wing. Milwaukee had great defensive guards, but not a lot of switch wing defenders, and rides the same dual-rim protector look as Cleveland with Giannis and Brook in the place of Mobley and Allen. Boston's armada of wing defenders didn't amount to much with Time Lord out. The Clippers are built to play small, but instead rely on Zubac most nights. Memphis has been dominant since The Block Panther came back to play next to Steven Adams.

Rim protecting bigs are dominating the NBA's defensive landscape right now. The Pelicans, Heat, and Bulls are currently the best defenses not built around a traditional rim protector (but Bam is playing a little more traditionally for Miami this year). The Raptors will get back in the mix if they can stay healthy, but they probably top out as a top 10 defense rather than a top 5.

Matchup defense is more visible than rim protection. But defense is about executing the 5 man scheme, and nothing makes a consistently stronger scheme than the mountain in the middle.
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Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 

Post#108 » by cam24thomas » Wed Dec 21, 2022 12:32 am

Will "you know whom" make All-Defensive team? Or am i supposed to believe he went from 2nd most votes to nothing?
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Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 

Post#109 » by Rastas » Wed Dec 21, 2022 1:36 pm

ben10simmons wrote:Will "you know whom" make All-Defensive team? Or am i supposed to believe he went from 2nd most votes to nothing?


Ben's chances of making the list depend on 2 things -

Firstly after watching him closely this season he still only at around 75% fitness.

Secondly and even more importantly is when the NBA ref orders against him memo will end.

I admit it has eased slightly from earlier in the season but it is also putting Ben in the mind to not give a 100% defensive effort because he knows he gonna hear a whistle.

Would love to see him cut loose defensively in a FIBA game with zero NBA influenced refs.
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Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 

Post#110 » by Jabroni Lames » Wed Dec 21, 2022 1:51 pm

How is OG leading this poll? Raptors defense is in the bottom half of the league.
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Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 

Post#111 » by -Luke- » Wed Dec 21, 2022 2:39 pm

Jabroni Lames wrote:How is OG leading this poll? Raptors defense is in the bottom half of the league.

Yes, but he missed 4 games recently and the Raptors were -32 combined in those 4 games. If I remember correctly they were solidly in the top 10 just two weeks ago or so.
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Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 

Post#112 » by Zenzibar » Wed Dec 21, 2022 3:00 pm

Image

If your best player just got locked down against the Knicks, look no further than Quentin Grimes.
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Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 

Post#113 » by Jabroni Lames » Wed Dec 21, 2022 3:10 pm

-Luke- wrote:
Jabroni Lames wrote:How is OG leading this poll? Raptors defense is in the bottom half of the league.

Yes, but he missed 4 games recently and the Raptors were -32 combined in those 4 games. If I remember correctly they were solidly in the top 10 just two weeks ago or so.


Nope. Raptors were 11th in DRTG when O.G. got hurt. They've only very briefly been in the Top 10.

OG's main competition, Brook Lopez (2) & Jarrett Allen (1) are Top 2. And Jarrett Allen plays with perimeter pylons on D, while the Raptors have a roster full of defensive minded players with a defensive genius coach, Nurse. Raptors should be Top 2 with DPOY OG and that crew.
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Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 

Post#114 » by -Luke- » Wed Dec 21, 2022 3:44 pm

Jabroni Lames wrote:
-Luke- wrote:
Jabroni Lames wrote:How is OG leading this poll? Raptors defense is in the bottom half of the league.

Yes, but he missed 4 games recently and the Raptors were -32 combined in those 4 games. If I remember correctly they were solidly in the top 10 just two weeks ago or so.


Nope. Raptors were 11th in DRTG when O.G. got hurt. They've only very briefly been in the Top 10.

OG's main competition, Brook Lopez (2) & Jarrett Allen (1) are Top 2. And Jarrett Allen plays with perimeter pylons on D, while the Raptors have a roster full of defensive minded players with a defensive genius coach, Nurse. Raptors should be Top 2 with DPOY OG and that crew.

Fair enough. Just wanted to say that it isn't bis fault the Raptors dropped into the bottom half.

I wouldn't have him over Brook and Allen either.
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Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 

Post#115 » by danvato » Thu Dec 22, 2022 4:00 am

Zenzibar wrote:Image

If your best player just got locked down against the Knicks, look no further than Quentin Grimes.


is the picture of him fouling supposed to be ironic?
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Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 

Post#116 » by eyeatoma » Thu Dec 22, 2022 7:39 am

cupcakesnake wrote:I'm going to reset the poll around Christmas by the way! I'll be reviewing peoples posts to think about who to add and who to drop.

Like/possible adds: Claxton, Mobley, JJJ,
Possible drops: Wiggins, Anthony Davis, Myles Turner

Lots of other guys I'd like to include on the list but polls can only be 10. I'll probably rest the poll 2 more times this season.
Please add Embiid. Sixers have the 2nd best defense. Also he's no 3 in dbpm. 11th in defensive win shares, and 1st in Defensive rating this year.

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Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 

Post#117 » by PennSports » Thu Dec 22, 2022 7:58 am

embiid has the best drating in the league and the sixers are 2nd in the league with only 2 other positive defensive players in the rotation. One being 37 yr old tucker and the other an undersized Melton.

Doing this while also still maintaining his absurd usage and scoring on offense he has to shoulder definitely has to count for something. Giannis always gets credit as a dpoy candidate but hes been slacking on that end this year while having Jrue and Brook on his team to help carry the load in front of him and behind him. I dont think it is crazy to say Jo and Brook should be the top 2 right now. Giannis is the only other guy close to his size that is asked to do as much on both ends of the floor and Embiid clears him both offensively and defensively right now. Jo also has been playing 3-4 more minutes a game so they have been relying on him more.
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Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 

Post#118 » by eyeatoma » Thu Dec 22, 2022 8:22 am

PennSports wrote:embiid has the best drating in the league and the sixers are 2nd in the league with only 2 other positive defensive players in the rotation. One being 37 yr old tucker and the other an undersized Melton.

Doing this while also still maintaining his absurd usage and scoring on offense he has to shoulder definitely has to count for something. Giannis always gets credit as a dpoy candidate but hes been slacking on that end this year while having Jrue and Brook on his team to help carry the load in front of him and behind him. I dont think it is crazy to say Jo and Brook should be the top 2 right now. Giannis is the only other guy close to his size that is asked to do as much on both ends of the floor and Embiid clears him both offensively and defensively right now. Jo also has been playing 3-4 more minutes a game so they have been relying on him more.


Just in case the GB doesn't believe you.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/nba-defensive-rating-leaders-this-season

Watch them pick apart this stat because it's pro Embiid though, and their advanced stats god Jokic is only 21st in the league.
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Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 

Post#119 » by itsxtray » Thu Dec 22, 2022 8:30 am

cupcakesnake wrote:
Kurtz wrote:
Traditionally, it's undeniable that the DPOY voting has favoured the C position due to its outsized influence on the game. However, in recent years, as offenses have become more and more perimeter oriented, I think the importance of the dominant post defender has diminished in comparison to a versatile defender that can guard and disrupt the perimeter and is able to defend anyone on a switch, while also being able to hold their own and help out down low when the occasion calls for it.

I'm looking at the Pelicans-Bucks box score tonight, and I see that JV put up 38/17 while hitting 7 threes on Brook. That doesn't surprise me, given that Brook wears that shock collar that goes off anytime he's more than 10 feet from his basket on defense. Imo that type of defender doesn't scream DPOY in the modern game - give me a more versatile who defends all over the floor, like an OG, Draymond, Simmons, Herb Jones/Mobley (eventually), etc.


I get this thinking if you really focus on matchup defending, but in reality this isn't how NBA defense works and the rim-protecting big man is as important as ever. I'm sure you must feel this as a Raps fan who watches an incredible collection of the kind of defender you're talking about, still struggle night to night without that primary rim protector.

Now lots of teams have managed to be dominant defenses without the elite center (Pippen Bulls, Bad Boy Pistons, 80s Bucks, the Warriors post-Bogut), but 90% of the best defenses ever (or even the best recent defenses) are still built on paint protection from a big.

Even if we look at just this year, Cleveland is dominant with its dual-rim protector look despite not having much in the ways of defensive personnel on the perimeter and wing. Milwaukee had great defensive guards, but not a lot of switch wing defenders, and rides the same dual-rim protector look as Cleveland with Giannis and Brook in the place of Mobley and Allen. Boston's armada of wing defenders didn't amount to much with Time Lord out. The Clippers are built to play small, but instead rely on Zubac most nights. Memphis has been dominant since The Block Panther came back to play next to Steven Adams.

Rim protecting bigs are dominating the NBA's defensive landscape right now. The Pelicans, Heat, and Bulls are currently the best defenses not built around a traditional rim protector (but Bam is playing a little more traditionally for Miami this year). The Raptors will get back in the mix if they can stay healthy, but they probably top out as a top 10 defense rather than a top 5.

Matchup defense is more visible than rim protection. But defense is about executing the 5 man scheme, and nothing makes a consistently stronger scheme than the mountain in the middle.

This reminded me of a postcast by thinking basketball. If i remember correctly at one point he looked at the best defenses without rim protectors and they can be really good but none have reached the heights of teams with a true paint/rim protector.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/0So07J8FA4Qbg4jBPo1SwN?si=uJPwNJSgQ5C9y27nVsiVIQ

Even with the 3 point explosion protecting the rim is still the most valuable thing a defense can do. This video explains it well:

eyeatoma
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Re: DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 

Post#120 » by eyeatoma » Thu Dec 22, 2022 8:44 am

Picking apart how this poll just seems to be a popularity contest, and people say, oooh he locked down that dude.

OG - Leading the Poll

Drating - Not even on the graph https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/nba-defensive-rating-leaders-this-season
111
D Winshares - 1.3 15th league
DPBM - 1.0 38th in the league

But, he locks down them superstarzzzzz....LOL, raps fans never change.

Lopez

Drating
8th in the NBA - 107
DWS - 9th in NBA - 1.5
DPBM - 19th 1.7

Pretty strong

Bam
Drating - 109.2 - 18th in the NBA
DWS - 1.5 - 6th in the NBA
DPBM - 0.5 - 62nd in the nBA

Definite question marks but can be good for sure

Jarrett Allen
Drating - 104.5 Tied for 1st
DWS - 1.7 - 2nd
DPBM - 22nd

Also very strong

Giannis everyone yearly DPOY candidate
Drating - 4th - 105.4
DWS - 3rd 1.6
DPBM - 2.4 4th

Still a god, best so far

Bridges
D rating - 113.3, not even in the top 25
DWS 1.2 24th
DPBM 0.3 73rd in the league

Lol overrated

AD
D Rating - 106.9 7th
DWS 1.5 7th
DPBM 2.1 11th
Very strong, shame he's hurt

Everyone's other favorite advanced stats god, and apparently now an elite defender
Jokic
Drating - 109.9 22nd in the league
DWS - 1.2 29th
DPBM 1st in the league with 3.9.

This just goes to show that defensive numbers need to be taken with a grain of salt. Can't say he's elite just because he's leading in DPBM which prioritizes rebounding.

Jokic is a slightly above average defender. Much improved, but no where in the realm of a great or even good defender.

Meanwhile Embiid is not even on the poll.

Drating - 104.5 1st in the league
DWS - 1.4 11th
DPBM - 2.7 3rd

According to the advanced stats ya'll love to quote he would be 2nd or 3rd in the rankings.

This really just goes to show how much the GB just hates on Embiid, and refuses to give him his flowers. I get he wasn't good the 1st 2 weeks since then he has anchored the Sixers having the 2nd best defense. Really need to be on the poll. He is a top 3 defender in the league, and most definitely a DPOY candidate.

Here are my sources:

Drating
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/nba-defensive-rating-leaders-this-season
DWS
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2023_advanced.html#advanced_stats::dws
DPBM
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2023_advanced.html#advanced_stats::dbpm

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