NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2)

Post #101 » by **bisme37** » Mon Dec 26, 2022 1:36 am

kuclas · Post #102 » by **kuclas** » Mon Dec 26, 2022 1:41 am

Duke4life831 wrote:For the few people that still find it crazy to include Tatum into the MVP discussion, ya not the hill to die on. Is he on the same tier as Jokic and Giannis as individual talents? Nope, no one is. Is he a legit MVP candidate this year? Without a doubt. True elite 2 way impact on one of the best teams in the league. I was higher on Tatum than most coming out of college (to be fair not saying I have this great eye for talent, 100% just off of bias from being a Duke guy), but even I didnt see him being this dominant on both ends. He is so freaking good.

The issue with Tatum is if u take away Boston’s next two best players. Can Tatum carry the team? Most of the people will say no. Devin booker who’s a notch below Tatum has same issue even with a 65 win suns team last year.

We already know Giannis and Jokic can carry their teams without their next two best players. Even embiid can as well

That’s the real issue. Unless brown plus whoever is the 3rd best player on Boston (that debatable) between smart and others. But we don’t know if Tatum can carry Boston. The team is really good.

Post #103 » by **Feed Your Head** » Mon Dec 26, 2022 2:03 am

kuclas wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:For the few people that still find it crazy to include Tatum into the MVP discussion, ya not the hill to die on. Is he on the same tier as Jokic and Giannis as individual talents? Nope, no one is. Is he a legit MVP candidate this year? Without a doubt. True elite 2 way impact on one of the best teams in the league. I was higher on Tatum than most coming out of college (to be fair not saying I have this great eye for talent, 100% just off of bias from being a Duke guy), but even I didnt see him being this dominant on both ends. He is so freaking good.

The issue with Tatum is if u take away Boston’s next two best players. Can Tatum carry the team? Most of the people will say no. Devin booker who’s a notch below Tatum has same issue even with a 65 win suns team last year.

We already know Giannis and Jokic can carry their teams without their next two best players. Even embiid can as well

That’s the real issue. Unless brown plus whoever is the 3rd best player on Boston (that debatable) between smart and others. But we don’t know if Tatum can carry Boston. The team is really good.

And yet, they have been a bad team when he’s sat for years. -3.3 net rating when he is off the court this year, -1.9 last year.

Their net rating with Tatum on the court and Jaylen, Smart, Horford, Rob off the court is +13.4.

Last year their net rating in those same scenarios was +20.

Like Duke said, he’s not on Jokic’s or Giannis’s level as an individual talent, but as far as the impact on the game? The numbers speak for themselves.

Post #104 » by **Duke4life831** » Mon Dec 26, 2022 2:46 am

kuclas wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:For the few people that still find it crazy to include Tatum into the MVP discussion, ya not the hill to die on. Is he on the same tier as Jokic and Giannis as individual talents? Nope, no one is. Is he a legit MVP candidate this year? Without a doubt. True elite 2 way impact on one of the best teams in the league. I was higher on Tatum than most coming out of college (to be fair not saying I have this great eye for talent, 100% just off of bias from being a Duke guy), but even I didnt see him being this dominant on both ends. He is so freaking good.

The issue with Tatum is if u take away Boston’s next two best players. Can Tatum carry the team? Most of the people will say no. Devin booker who’s a notch below Tatum has same issue even with a 65 win suns team last year.

We already know Giannis and Jokic can carry their teams without their next two best players. Even embiid can as well

That’s the real issue. Unless brown plus whoever is the 3rd best player on Boston (that debatable) between smart and others. But we don’t know if Tatum can carry Boston. The team is really good.

I just don’t see how this is a negative for Tatum though. Because his next couple of players haven’t been out we’re dont know if he’s a legit MVP contender? That’s a new argument in my opinion.

The best you can do with this is, if his team is so stacked, he must be damn impactful since he has an On/Off on a stacked team of a +14.

And ya no doubt this Celtics team is really good. But we’ve seen guys be considered legit MVP candidates when they’re playing alongside 2nd and 1st team All NBA teammates. Jaylen is an All Star guy, but he hasn’t been an All NBA guy yet.

eyeatoma · Post #105 » by **eyeatoma** » Mon Dec 26, 2022 2:52 am

How does Tatum rank with advanced stats?

Feel like compared to Jokic/Embiid/Luka/Giannis he's not in that territory with PER, Raptor, WAR, etc.

Post #106 » by **Feed Your Head** » Mon Dec 26, 2022 3:27 am

eyeatoma wrote:How does Tatum rank with advanced stats?

Feel like compared to Jokic/Embiid/Luka/Giannis he's not in that territory with PER, Raptor, WAR, etc.

Before today’s game, 7th in RAPTOR, 8th in EPM, 3rd in DARKO, 1st in RPM. Will be top 5 in LEBRON when that drops soon, I’d assume.

Last year was pretty much the same. He’s an advanced stats monster.

reload141 · Post #107 » by **reload141** » Mon Dec 26, 2022 3:28 am

eyeatoma wrote:How does Tatum rank with advanced stats?

Feel like compared to Jokic/Embiid/Luka/Giannis he's not in that territory with PER, Raptor, WAR, etc.

He is in the exact same territory, the issue is that record does become a factor at the end of the day.

For example, if Boston finish as the #1 seed and Philly the #6 seed how can the NBA give the MVP to Embiid over Tatum?

This is a pure hypothetical of course.

eyeatoma · Post #108 » by **eyeatoma** » Mon Dec 26, 2022 3:30 am

reload141 wrote:
eyeatoma wrote:How does Tatum rank with advanced stats?

Feel like compared to Jokic/Embiid/Luka/Giannis he's not in that territory with PER, Raptor, WAR, etc.

He is in the exact same territory, the issue is that record does become a factor at the end of the day.

For example, if Boston finish as the #1 seed and Philly the #6 seed how can the NBA give the MVP to Embiid over Tatum?

This is a pure hypothetical of course.

Obviously would have to go to Tatum then.

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B-easy · Post #109 » by **B-easy** » Mon Dec 26, 2022 4:44 am

reload141 wrote:He is in the exact same territory, the issue is that record does become a factor at the end of the day.

For example, if Boston finish as the #1 seed and Philly the #6 seed how can the NBA give the MVP to Embiid over Tatum?

This is a pure hypothetical of course.

If the difference is only a couple of games then it will go to embiid. Record > seeding.

Post #110 » by **Duke4life831** » Mon Dec 26, 2022 6:43 am

Can’t see an argument on how Jokic isn’t leading the race at the moment.

The only thing against him right now seems to be

Voter fatigue
Hasn’t won a championship

When in reality none of those things should play a part in a regular season award.

Cubbies2120 · Post #111 » by **Cubbies2120** » Mon Dec 26, 2022 6:44 am

Duke4life831 wrote:Can’t see an argument on how Jokic isn’t leading the race at the moment.

Ask eyeatoma, I think it has something to do with playoff results as his argument for why he can’t win REGULAR SEASON MVP

AussieCeltic · Post #112 » by **AussieCeltic** » Mon Dec 26, 2022 6:46 am

AussieCeltic wrote:Tatum just reminding everyone that he’s still around.

39/6/5 with a quarter to go.

Jokic is like, hold my beer.

Sharkboy242 · Post #113 » by **Sharkboy242** » Mon Dec 26, 2022 6:49 am

eyeatoma wrote:How does Tatum rank with advanced stats?

Feel like compared to Jokic/Embiid/Luka/Giannis he's not in that territory with PER, Raptor, WAR, etc.

If only someone would have posted an aggregate ranking of advanced stats in the first reply to this thread that you didnt laugh off :roll:

GeorgeSears · Post #114 » by **GeorgeSears** » Mon Dec 26, 2022 6:49 am

Dread it, run from it...

canada_dry · Post #115 » by **canada_dry** » Mon Dec 26, 2022 6:57 am

Duke4life831 wrote:Can’t see an argument on how Jokic isn’t leading the race at the moment.

The only thing against him right now seems to be

Voter fatigue
Hasn’t won a championship

When in reality none of those things should play a part in a regular season award.

Its the reason nash didn't win a 3rd.

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Bank Shot · Post #116 » by **Bank Shot** » Mon Dec 26, 2022 7:00 am

Best player in the league with historic numbers carrying a team with Aaron Gordon as it's second best player to the top of the conference. Prepare yourself, folks.

eyeatoma · Post #117 » by **eyeatoma** » Mon Dec 26, 2022 7:12 am

Duke4life831 wrote:Can’t see an argument on how Jokic isn’t leading the race at the moment.

The only thing against him right now seems to be

Voter fatigue
Hasn’t won a championship

When in reality none of those things should play a part in a regular season award.

Those are huge reasons. But yes, he has everything else going for him. I won't deny it.

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Exp0sed · Post #118 » by **Exp0sed** » Mon Dec 26, 2022 7:14 am

Bank Shot wrote:Best player in the league with historic numbers carrying a team with Aaron Gordon as it's second best player to the top of the conference. Prepare yourself, folks.

AG probably has bonuses in his contract for AS appearnces etc.
if the Nuggets will be 1st come the all-star game it'll be hard not to give him a nod, no?

he should buy Jokic some nice steak dinner when that happens

ty 4191 · Post #119 » by **ty 4191** » Mon Dec 26, 2022 7:28 am

eyeatoma wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:Can’t see an argument on how Jokic isn’t leading the race at the moment.

The only thing against him right now seems to be

Voter fatigue
Hasn’t won a championship

When in reality none of those things should play a part in a regular season award.
Those are huge reasons. But yes, he has everything else going for him. I won't deny it.

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Third 41/15/15 game in NBA history tonight (by Jokic).

The guy is the best offensive center ever and one of the top 10 offensive players ever. (Easily.)

Infinite Llamas · Post #120 » by **Infinite Llamas** » Mon Dec 26, 2022 7:30 am

So we will punish Jokic because some buffoons of the past decided to slight Lebron and Jordan?

I think it’s nonsense. Don’t let the mistakes that were made in the past change what’s happening in the present. I’m a Celtics homer so I love what Tatum is doing but Jokic is far more consistent and doing simply amazing things every single game. Voter fatigue might be the single most stupid thing surrounding sports these days.

Who is your current NBA MVP? (listed alphabetically)