Gobert Trade Was Bad, But What About the Dejounte Murray Trade?

[JujitsuFlip]

Philly and Milwaukee are both teams Cleveland can definitely beat.

Until I can see evidence of Embiid and Harden having what it takes to be consistently excellent playoff performers, I will continue to question why everyone seems to forget that their quality of play decreasing significantly in the PO. What, so Miami last season can beat them but you're telling me Cleveland with Mitchell can't simply because they're inexperienced? I'm not buying it.

Milwaukee is a team Cleveland matches up favorably with, and that can be problematic in a seven game series. I don't see Giannis style of play benefiting him as well against a team that is probably the best equipped we've ever seen to form a wall in the paint. In that instance, Milwaukee has to rely more on their three point shooting, and that's easier said than done. Again, it needs to be stressed that for the great majority of this season, Cleveland has been the number one defensive team in the league. I don't see that changing anytime soon.

Boston and Brooklyn I have legitimate concerns about. Even though we're 2-0 against Boston this season, both games went to OT and it could have went either way. And with Brooklyn, due to the Ben Simmons problem, you know at least one of Mitchell or Garlands offensive output is going to be limited. That severely hinders what Cleveland can do at that end.

And by the way, this isn't me saying that Cleveland will for sure make it out of the first round. Saying they're a first round team at BEST implies they'll be lucky if they even make the playoffs in the first place, which (assuming they don't continue to have major health problems) is ludicrous in of itself given the amount of talent they have. And to top it off, they are absolutely capable of knocking out any of the four teams mentioned. That doesn't mean I'm confident enough in it happening to any of those teams to the point where I'm willing to put money on it, but they definitely have the talent to do so. It's not out of the question by any means.

I just want to chime in and say the Cavs do not match up well with a a healthy Bucks team.

Yeah, they kind of do.

Cleveland is one of the only teams with the combination of elite perimeter and interior defense that can stifle Milwaukee's offense. Even if Giannis can consistently contribute at a high level, the rest of the team can't. That style of play Giannis likes to deploy doesn't work nearly as much in the post season, and Cleveland has the defense capable of severely limiting him. Someone brought up Boston (and again, I can't stress how much this comparison made me laugh), but that team simply lacks the length and versatility that Cleveland has at its disposal.

The only real advantage that Milwaukee legitimately have is Brook Lopez. Because of his ability to knock down shots from the outside, Cleveland has to use one of their bigs to go out and meet him. But if he's contained and not able to consistently hit his shots, that's a serious problem for the Bucks.

Last season, everything I just described above occurred in the matchups between the two teams. And it was on display in Cleveland's most recent win against them. I know Middleton will at some point be back and I am assuming (and hoping) that he will be able to have a healthy season from that point on. But Cleveland has a variety of very (and I mean VERY) capable one on one defenders that they can throw at him in Stevens, LeVert (you can laugh all you want but he's actually been really great defensively this season) and Okoro. Milwaukee just doesn't have the same amount of defenders to throw back at our most lethal offensive weapons apart from Holiday.

Talking about Cleveland has derailed this thread, so I'm going to leave it at that.

Yeah, I don't want to derail the thread any further. I'll just tell you, I couldn't possibly disagree with your analysis more than I do.

[Ballerhogger]

What do with two under sized guards? You have to play defense to win. Hard win as their record shows

[KingFox]

I didn't like this trade at all. Hawks really needed to upgrade the PF position first. I wish they could've traded for Markkanen or Porzingis.

That would be such a great fit with Trae Omg

[Scalabrine]

Would this trade fix both teams…

To Hawks: Gobert + Anderson + GTJ

To Raptors: Capela

To Wolves: Murray + Collins + Hawks Filler

New Raptors:
Capela
Siakam
Barnes
OG
FVV

New Hawks:
Gobert
Anderson | OO
Hunter
GTJ | BB
Young

New Wolves:
Towns
Collins
McDaniels
Edwards
Murray

I like the idea of pairing Young and Gobert together, but I think I like Zac Lowes idea of pairing them on the Wolves in a KAT for Young swap better.

[Wolveswin]

Would this trade fix both teams…

To Hawks: Gobert + Anderson + GTJ

To Raptors: Capela

To Wolves: Murray + Collins + Hawks Filler

New Raptors:
Capela
Siakam
Barnes
OG
FVV

New Hawks:
Gobert
Anderson | OO
Hunter
GTJ | BB
Young

New Wolves:
Towns
Collins
McDaniels
Edwards
Murray

I like the idea of pairing Young and Gobert together, but I think I like Zac Lowes idea of pairing them on the Wolves in a KAT for Young swap better.

Towns can’t be traded until offseason. Not sure Wolves can wait that long.

[Geaux_Hawks]

I haven't watched a ton of Hawks games this year so I'll have to defer to you somewhat but from an outside observer the stagnation, lack of creativity, and ball movement in the Hawks offense this year looks significantly worse than it did last year. It's like night and day. Maybe you're right and Trae Young is just going through the worst shooting slump ever and it will self correct but so far the offense looks like it's doing a terrible job generating high quality shots and everyone on the Hawks is shooting as if that's the case.

What's probably confusing is that Nate's offense doesn't have a lot of active movement. It's more reliant on reactive movement after the player attacks the "mismatch". Penetration drawing defenders in, creates an open man.

This worked a lot better when it was just Trae by himself left with making the decision to find a shooter or throw the lob. So you do have a point, but the additional context needed is that it's also easier to defend if you just cut the head of the snake off like the Heat did last year. Which is why we needed someone like Murray who can be that secondary playmaker.

The downside has been Trae and Collins both being abysmal shooting from deep, and the lack of any other shooters present before Bogi came back. Murray not being the best shooter himself kinda compunds the issue.

So we really need a more modern attack that can cater to both of them on the floor together and Trae to correct his shooting. I think Murray can be a great cutter and back door lob threat off the PnR. I'd argue a more versatile big would help a lot too. Collins/Capella overlap each other a lot if Collins isn't hitting shots.

[Geaux_Hawks]

You're forgetting Trae Young is also shooting the same shots he did last year, but missing them this year. Murray isn't impacting that. Also, shooters like Huerter and Gallo are gone; Collins is shooting horfficly; Bogi missed 20+ games; and Clint has been dealing with injuries. That #2 offense is bottom 10 because the same guys that made it so good, are either struggling themselves, or not here. Guys don't shoot 31% and 23% because a new player joined the team. These are legit wide open shots being missed btw. This isn't Murray coming in and taking shots away or anything. Trae's still got around the same usage and FGA's. All Murray did was replaced Huerter/Gallo without the shooting.

Again, our problems come from no bench, lack of shooting, missing Capela, and coaching in general. Even just having Capela back fully healthy would swing more games back into our favor. Teams just kill us on the boards most nights without him.

I haven't watched a ton of Hawks games this year so I'll have to defer to you somewhat but from an outside observer the stagnation, lack of creativity, and ball movement in the Hawks offense this year looks significantly worse than it did last year. It's like night and day. Maybe you're right and Trae Young is just going through the worst shooting slump ever and it will self correct but so far the offense looks like it's doing a terrible job generating high quality shots and everyone on the Hawks is shooting as if that's the case.

You can watch all the games you want, if you're watching them through the wrong lens (e.g. to rationalize a trade that saw 3 first-round picks including 2 unprotected go to another team) then it prevents you from making an accurate analysis of the events.

Not specifically dismissing Geaux_Hawks's take here, just making a more general point.

Like you, I've seen a few Hawks games this year, and it's obvious to me the offense looks worse. Trae - who might also be missing shots to compound to the bigger issue - looks uncomfortable within the offense, which has undoubtedly contributed to his poor percentages. He never gets to get in a flow, or to regress to the mean after a bad stretch within the game, because in this case he just defers to Murray, who then takes his turn.

The Hawks didn't add a secondary playmaker, they added a second primary option, who is now just taking turns running the offense with Trae, while neither one of them helps the other while they are off the ball.

Huerter was a much better fit than Murray. Losing him hurt them.

I explained a lot of this in a different post, but the offense would look a lot better if Trae and Collins at least shot better from 3. Huerter was a better fit as a shooter, but was too inconsistent with the ball in his hands.

So when a team like the Heat forced others to step up, it killed us offensively. With the exception of Gallo to an extent, no one else could create offense consistently outside of Trae.

Another one of our problems was not replacing the shooters we traded away. So in essence, in Nate's offense, Murray solved a problem, and created a different one. We ultimately made a lateral move without realizing it until now. We need a modern offense and more shooters at the end of the day.

[Chanel Bomber]

I haven't watched a ton of Hawks games this year so I'll have to defer to you somewhat but from an outside observer the stagnation, lack of creativity, and ball movement in the Hawks offense this year looks significantly worse than it did last year. It's like night and day. Maybe you're right and Trae Young is just going through the worst shooting slump ever and it will self correct but so far the offense looks like it's doing a terrible job generating high quality shots and everyone on the Hawks is shooting as if that's the case.

You can watch all the games you want, if you're watching them through the wrong lens (e.g. to rationalize a trade that saw 3 first-round picks including 2 unprotected go to another team) then it prevents you from making an accurate analysis of the events.

Not specifically dismissing Geaux_Hawks's take here, just making a more general point.

Like you, I've seen a few Hawks games this year, and it's obvious to me the offense looks worse. Trae - who might also be missing shots to compound to the bigger issue - looks uncomfortable within the offense, which has undoubtedly contributed to his poor percentages. He never gets to get in a flow, or to regress to the mean after a bad stretch within the game, because in this case he just defers to Murray, who then takes his turn.

The Hawks didn't add a secondary playmaker, they added a second primary option, who is now just taking turns running the offense with Trae, while neither one of them helps the other while they are off the ball.

Huerter was a much better fit than Murray. Losing him hurt them.

I explained a lot of this in a different post, but the offense would look a lot better if Trae and Collins at least shot better from 3. Huerter was a better fit as a shooter, but was too inconsistent with the ball in his hands.

So when a team like the Heat forced others to step up, it killed us offensively. With the exception of Gallo to an extent, no one else could create offense consistently outside of Trae.

Another one of our problems was not replacing the shooters we traded away. So in essence, in Nate's offense, Murray solved a problem, and created a different one. We ultimately made a lateral move without realizing it until now. We need a modern offense and more shooters at the end of the day.

Appreciate your thoughtful reply.

We'll see where the team ends up at the end of the regular season, but it seems worse than a lateral move, considering the swap you mentioned (less shooting for more ball-handling and shot creation) wasn't a straight swap but actually cost them extra assets, not to mention they currently have a sub-.500 record. Obviously, other elements factor also into this record as well, though perhaps less predominantly.

I agree with you that the Hawks need more shooters. It felt like they had an abundance of them two years ago, which makes the lack of shooters today even more damning.

My stance after the disappointing 2021-22 campaign (before the Murray trade) was that they needed to stay the course, largely because of how young the core was. Who knows what player Huerter will be in 2-3 years when he's in his prime for instance - maybe he'll still be a role player, maybe he'll be a better shot creator than he is now and would answer a lot of the Hawks' issues. This is all speculative.

I just think they went all in on the wrong profile. They didn't trade for a secondary. They traded for a second primary. And I think it's caused a major perturbation in Atlanta's offense and locker room. Maybe they just need time. Hopefully for you guys they find a way to mesh and players start making their 3s. I personally have my doubts. I guess we will see.

[LBJKB24MJ23]

not surprised by the Hawks record. Its not Murray's fault tbh.

its always been Trae's lack of defense. and this year, he's also in a shooting slump. if he ever gets around to the rumours of him wanting to be the next star to demand a trade being true ... because his team is sucking - he should take a look in the mirror.

Murray was a good move. Trae needs to be a lot better overall.

Sadly, many Atlanta fans don't agree, and they have no problem with how Trae is playing. They seem to believe everybody else on the team is the problem. I don't believe Trae is able to hold himself accountable yet.

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thats because they have to protect him because they believe they won the Trae/Luka swap and they are now stuck with Trae - also probably stuck in the thought that he is the next Curry and eventually he will get through all of this and become the player they envision him to be. and sometimes, you just have to wait till he's past his prime and see. they might be right or wrong. time will tell.

but Murray is exactly doing what we all thought he was going to do. great at both ends of the floor.

i mean firing the coach might help too. but Atlanta right now is still in a youth movement. will take about 2-3 years how the core of Murray and Young will shape up.

[ProcessDoctor]

The Murray trade was absolutely worse than the Gobert trade. Who the hell trades three FRPs for a borderline all-star? Especially a team that's not really close to being a contender in a stacked East. I don't think this trade gets nearly enough ****.

[slicedbread2]

You can watch all the games you want, if you're watching them through the wrong lens (e.g. to rationalize a trade that saw 3 first-round picks including 2 unprotected go to another team) then it prevents you from making an accurate analysis of the events.

Not specifically dismissing Geaux_Hawks's take here, just making a more general point.

Like you, I've seen a few Hawks games this year, and it's obvious to me the offense looks worse. Trae - who might also be missing shots to compound to the bigger issue - looks uncomfortable within the offense, which has undoubtedly contributed to his poor percentages. He never gets to get in a flow, or to regress to the mean after a bad stretch within the game, because in this case he just defers to Murray, who then takes his turn.

The Hawks didn't add a secondary playmaker, they added a second primary option, who is now just taking turns running the offense with Trae, while neither one of them helps the other while they are off the ball.

Huerter was a much better fit than Murray. Losing him hurt them.

I explained a lot of this in a different post, but the offense would look a lot better if Trae and Collins at least shot better from 3. Huerter was a better fit as a shooter, but was too inconsistent with the ball in his hands.

So when a team like the Heat forced others to step up, it killed us offensively. With the exception of Gallo to an extent, no one else could create offense consistently outside of Trae.

Another one of our problems was not replacing the shooters we traded away. So in essence, in Nate's offense, Murray solved a problem, and created a different one. We ultimately made a lateral move without realizing it until now. We need a modern offense and more shooters at the end of the day.

Appreciate your thoughtful reply.

We'll see where the team ends up at the end of the regular season, but it seems worse than a lateral move, considering the swap you mentioned (less shooting for more ball-handling and shot creation) wasn't a straight swap but actually cost them extra assets, not to mention they currently have a sub-.500 record. Obviously, other elements factor also into this record as well, though perhaps less predominantly.

I agree with you that the Hawks need more shooters. It felt like they had an abundance of them two years ago, which makes the lack of shooters today even more damning.

My stance after the disappointing 2021-22 campaign (before the Murray trade) was that they needed to stay the course, largely because of how young the core was. Who knows what player Huerter will be in 2-3 years when he's in his prime for instance - maybe he'll still be a role player, maybe he'll be a better shot creator than he is now and would answer a lot of the Hawks' issues. This is all speculative.

I just think they went all in on the wrong profile. They didn't trade for a secondary. They traded for a second primary. And I think it's caused a major perturbation in Atlanta's offense and locker room. Maybe they just need time. Hopefully for you guys they find a way to mesh and players start making their 3s. I personally have my doubts. I guess we will see.

Honestly Atlanta has shot themselves in the foot. Don't get me wrong that Heat series was a reality check that they needed a 2nd unit play maker especially when Trae is out of the game but man was it ugly to watch.

Now it's even worse because they gave up a lot of draft capital for Murray who while I like as a player it really made things worse. Collins is playing like a dud right now and teams know that the Hawks want to get off his deal because he's not doing much if his shot isn't falling not to mention he and Capela tend to get in each other's way.

There may be a trade available to get them shooters as it's clear they need spacing in the worse way possible and I came up with a deal that mixes the botched Collins deal but this one involves Detroit and Phoenix:

Phoenix: John Collins
Atlanta: Bojan Bogdanovic, Alec Burks
Detroit: Jae Crowder, Dario Saric, Josh Okogie, Justin Holiday, 2 1sts(23 PHX 1st, future ATL 1st(can be in 23 or the lower of SAC/ATL 24 1st), 4 2nds(ATL 23 2nd, NO 23 2nd, 2 OKC 2nds. Phoenix could throw in a 2nd too in lieu of one of those 2nds if need be)

1) Phoenix gets a stretch 4 that can use a fresh start elsewhere while recirculating expiring salary and forking over a late 1st.
2) Detroit tried to go for the play-in but Cunningham getting hurt derailed those plans and they are currently at the bottom of the league. They have proven that Bojan is still a stud and Burks is still capable of being a good contributor and get compensated fairly with a lot of draft capital to be used for the future while being able to use the expiring salaries of the incoming players to eat another bad deal in the hopes of getting more capital
3) Atlanta gets a stretch 4 that's been killing it in Bojan who could provide the spacing needed to allow Young and Murray to thrive. His defense is suspect but it's not too bad for a 33y/o guy while Burks can provide great 2nd unit scoring as Bogdan's health hasn't been the best. Oh and they are still able to stay under the tax which has been very important for ownership.

Honestly I think you may not get a better deal than that as you aren't necessarily compromising the long-term future there.

[Lockdown504090]

What do with two under sized guards? You have to play defense to win. Hard win as their record shows

whats crazy is that their offense has been worse than their defense this season.
a few illuminating things :
dead ass last in passes thrown per game. 2nd in unassisted 3s.
top 8 in pace, but bottom 10 in fast break points.
last in catch and shoot 3s

I dont think its very fun or motivating to be someone other than trae or murray on the Hawks.

[Jadoogar]

All these trades are bad ones

Gobert to MIN
Murray to ATL
Mitchell to CLE
Vucevic to CHI

16 picks were traded or will be swaped in these trades and all these teams are first rnd exit folder at best.

you absolutely can't throw mitchell into this list.
The Cavs may not win right away but mitchell is young and will grow with the team. As the Nets and Bucks age out, Cavs will be right at the top of the conference.

Nah, you won't win with Mitchell as top dog. Mitchell teams looked better w/o him in the last 4 years.

lol

[Rafael122]

I still shake my head at the fact that the Hawks didn't draft Luka. That changes the trajectory of this franchise.

[SpreeS]

you absolutely can't throw mitchell into this list.
The Cavs may not win right away but mitchell is young and will grow with the team. As the Nets and Bucks age out, Cavs will be right at the top of the conference.

Nah, you won't win with Mitchell as top dog. Mitchell teams looked better w/o him in the last 4 years.

lol

RS knights

[LightTheBeam]

Would this trade fix both teams…

To Hawks: Gobert + Anderson + GTJ

To Raptors: Capela

To Wolves: Murray + Collins + Hawks Filler

New Raptors:
Capela
Siakam
Barnes
OG
FVV

New Hawks:
Gobert
Anderson | OO
Hunter
GTJ | BB
Young

New Wolves:
Towns
Collins
McDaniels
Edwards
Murray

Wolves would need to include about 2-3 1st round picks they don't have

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Can you explain your opinion and try to justify your take?

Sure. Gobert is 30 years old. In the games hes played this season Minnesota is 13-19. He is locked up the next 4 years making 38-46 million dollars per year. He is very hard to build around, and ruins teams offenses. If he's not a bad contract already, he will be considered a league worst contract by 2024. The trade was awful the day it was made, it's looking historically bad today.

Meanwhile you have the Wolves trading him for Dejounte Murray. A 26 year old do it all guard that plays both sides of the ball, and can pretty much fit in on any team in the league. He's locked up this year and next at 16 and 17 million per season.

Even if Murray gets a contract starting at 30 million, his total cost the next 4 years including this year will be something around 95 million. Where as Rudy is about 170 million during that stretch. Not only would I rather have Murray straight up over Gobert (contracts not considered), you are asking a team to pay an average of 18.75 million more to have Gobert.

[Bornstellar]

17-20 now

[benhillboy]

What do with two under sized guards? You have to play defense to win. Hard win as their record shows

whats crazy is that their offense has been worse than their defense this season.
a few illuminating things :
dead ass last in passes thrown per game. 2nd in unassisted 3s.
top 8 in pace, but bottom 10 in fast break points.
last in catch and shoot 3s

I dont think it’s very fun or motivating to be someone other than trae or murray on the Hawks.

Sort this table by “FG added” and see who comes in dead last:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2023_adj_shooting.html

I knew Trae on a max deal would be a horror flick but Jesus Christ.

This after the geniuses in the Hawks’ “front office” allowed him to handpick an “All Star ball handler to take the pressure off him after their roster was exposed in the Miami series” who is also small, inefficient, and useless off ball. You can’t make this ish up. They have no clue of all the holes in Young’s floor IQ and intangibles that no teammate or coach can fix.

If you have a defensive specialist guard or wing who can pick him up full court and get him off the ball as he hates non-assist passing (maybe a third of the league) and a smart Big who can mix up drop and blitz coverage of his PNR with Clint without fouling him a ton (again, about a third of the league) he’s basically a liability for most of his 35(!) minutes. You can write a book on how teams exploit him defensively weak side, in PNR, dribble penetration, and especially in transition oh my God. By some miracle he’s caught in mismatches with Bigs down low very seldomly.

With no defensive pressure applied at all to dribbles, shots, or passes and a heavy concentration of his offensive game in the middle of the floor you frankly have to be a pretty dull coach not to exploit him.

I’m sure Westbrook has the single season crown for FGs subtracted, he’s near -1700 for his career lol. But Trae is hot on his heels for it. Eerily he’s on a fast Westbrook career arc: putting up insane numbers at the obvious expense of his team with a single deep playoff run to show for it that was heavily due to excellent team depth. Both making a trailer load a money though it’s good work if you can get it!