Is this the greatest peak of all-time?

[coastalmarker99]

Jokic is an awful defender who gets owned on that side of the ball in the playoffs.

So no this is not the goat peak.

And Wilt folded in the playoffs against Russell. 20-29 team record, 1-6 series record career, vs. Russell, .491 FT%.

You really want to go down this road, Mark?

Wilt dropped 24 points, 32 rebounds, 13 assists and blocked 12 shots against Russell in game 1 of the 1967 ECF.

And then in game 3 he dropped 20 points 41 rebounds, 9 assists and blocked 5 shots.

furthermore, in game 5 he dropped 29 points, 36 rebounds, 13 assists and blocked 7 shots.

I dare you to find a game of Jokic individually dominating like that on both sides of the ball to that degree in the playoffs.

[ty 4191]

People try to denigrate Chamberlain's dominance by ascribing his accomplishments to an era of faster pace or weak competition.

We have to adjust for pace. it's the only fair way to compare players across eras.

[old skool]

People try to denigrate Chamberlain's dominance by ascribing his accomplishments to an era of faster pace or weak competition.

We have to adjust for pace. it's the only fair way to compare players across eras.

Wilt scored over 4,000 points in one season. Pace had nothing to do with that being the all-time record, as no one else is even close.

Regardless of "pace", Wilt scored more points than any other player 6 out of his first 8 seasons in the NBA.

Jokic has never led the NBA in total points.

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[old skool]

Over his first 7 seasons, Jokic is averaging 571 made field goals per season. His career high is 764.

Wilt led the NBA in made field goals each of his first 7 seasons, with yearly totals of:

1065
1251
1597
1463
1204
1063
1074

Chamberlain is the most dominate offensive player in NBA history. No one else is even close.

At this point in their respective careers, Wilt has made twice as many field goals and scored twice as many points as Jokic. That has more to do with Wilt's dominance than any other factor. Pace is a red herring that is not a significant factor in the huge gap in productivity.

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[meekrab]

People that expect all time great players to carry regular guys that are overpaid to glory will never be satisfied.

Jokic plays with a cast of nobodies outside of Jamal Murray, MPJ and Aaron Gordon who are just above average starters.

Jokic third best player at one time was Will Barton.

Will Barton.

You take Jokic off of the Nuggets and it is a lottery team. That's carrying.

Pretty generous to say "lottery" and not "potential single-digit wins".

[Heej]

I can't believe I just casually strolled into this thread and witnessed a Jokic vs Wilt argument. Mannn Jokic fans y'all eating swellllll

[JonFromVA]

Jokic is an awful defender who gets owned on that side of the ball in the playoffs.

So no this is not the goat peak.

And Wilt folded in the playoffs against Russell. 20-29 team record, 1-6 series record career, vs. Russell, .491 FT%.

You really want to go down this road, Mark?

Wilt utterly dominated Russell individually on both sides of the ball.

It's just that Russell's teammates always outplayed Wilt’s.


As I examined all 49 PO games.

I tracked data in four categories: TS%, Pts, Reb, Ast.

The overall data showed this:

PTS: Wilt: 43-6 (Wilt had more points than BR in 43 games vs. 6 games for Russ.)

REB: Wilt: 32-18 (1 tie)

AST: BR: 27-15 (7 ties)

TS%: Wilt: 32-17

I figured out Russ/Wilt’s teammates’ data by subtracting Russ/Wilt’s stats from team stats.

PTS: BR's teammates: 40-9 (BR teammates had more points than Wilt's in 40 of those games, vs. 9 for Wilt's mates.)

REB: BR teammates, 33-15 (1 tie)

AST: BR teammates: 28-16-5

TS%: BR teammates, 26-23

Also, finally, we know that Wilt and Russell played H2H in 8 PO series.

But who led in each category:

PTS: 8-0 Wilt

REB: 8-0 Wilt

AST: 6-2 Russell

TS%: 8-0 Wilt

Teammates:

PTS: 8-0 Russell's teammates

REB: 7-1 Russell's

AST: 5-3 Russell's

TS%: 5-3 Russell's

Therefore we see with the data that Wilt bested Russ in 26 of 32 (81%) categories over 8 PO series.

And that Russ's 11 teammates bested Wilt's 11 teammates in 25 of 32 (78%)categories over 8 PO series

In reality, Russell was credited for holding Wilt (the focal point of his teams offense) well below his usual production, while willingly sacrificing his own offense to help his teammates to score.

This was commonly understood until Jordan came along and convinced everyone that selfish basketball was winning basketball.

[dhsilv2]

Over his first 7 seasons, Jokic is averaging 571 made field goals per season. His career high is 764.

Wilt led the NBA in made field goals each of his first 7 seasons, with yearly totals of:

1065
1251
1597
1463
1204
1063
1074

Chamberlain is the most dominate offensive player in NBA history. No one else is even close.

At this point in their respective careers, Wilt has made twice as many field goals and scored twice as many points as Jokic. That has more to do with Wilt's dominance than any other factor. Pace is a red herring that is not a significant factor in the huge gap in productivity.

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And yet his team's offense was down right terrible while he was doing all of this. And by no means did Jokic have a worse set of teammates relative to era last year where he still at the 6th best offense in a 30 team league. The reality is, Wilt shot too much. Wilt is in the conversation for best defender in NBA history, he's simply not in that discussion for best offensive player.

[dolphinatik]

this reminds me of when everyone was saying how great Kevin Love was.
Props to him thought.
I just dont see it.
If I have to pick one player to pick for my team Im not sure he is in my top 10.
Any of you picking Jokic first? second?

[ty 4191]

Over his first 7 seasons, Jokic is averaging 571 made field goals per season. His career high is 764.

Wilt led the NBA in made field goals each of his first 7 seasons, with yearly totals of:

1065
1251
1597
1463
1204
1063
1074

Chamberlain is the most dominate offensive player in NBA history. No one else is even close.

At this point in their respective careers, Wilt has made twice as many field goals and scored twice as many points as Jokic. That has more to do with Wilt's dominance than any other factor. Pace is a red herring that is not a significant factor in the huge gap in productivity.

Sent from my SM-N960U using RealGM mobile app

Pace is certainly NOT a red herring. It's imperative for comparing players between eras.

WIlt's teams during his scoring years (60'-65') averaged a staggering 124 possessions per game. Jokic's teams have averaged 97 possessions per game his last 3 years (his scoring prime). This means the Wilt would be scoring roughly ~32 a game, today, in his scoring prime, or, that Jokic (the past 3 years) would be scoring ~31 a game in the 1960-1965 scoring environment. Of course, Wilt also did it playing 47.0 MPG and Jokic has only played 33.9 MPG.

That said, I'm not saying (nobody has said) that Jokic is on par with Wilt as a pure scorer. Even after adjusting for pace/scoring context.

As an OVERALL offensive player, however, Jokic the past 3 years may be the best the game has ever seen.

As far as Jokic's dominance, in the past 203 games (including the 2021 & 2022 Playoffs, dating back to the beginning of 2020-2021 season), Jokic has put up a slash line of:

26.7/12.0/8.0 (while leading all centers in steals by a huge margin) on .615 eFG% and +8.3 rTS% (while taking 694 threes as a center).

Consider:
--The only player in NBA history to put up a slash line of 26.7/12.0/8.0 in any single season is Oscar Robertson, all the way back in 61'-62', and he did it in a game that featured 127 possessions per game, playing 44 MPG.

--Jokic, on the other hand, has done this in a league averaging only 102 possessions per game, and while playing only 34 MPG.

And, Jokic has sustained this for the equivalent of 2.5 full seasons!!

[dhsilv2]

this reminds me of when everyone was saying how great Kevin Love was.
Props to him thought.
I just dont see it.
If I have to pick one player to pick for my team Im not sure he is in my top 10.
Any of you picking Jokic first? second?

Given current age, it would be Luka or Jokic for me.

[old skool]

Over his first 7 seasons, Jokic is averaging 571 made field goals per season. His career high is 764.

Wilt led the NBA in made field goals each of his first 7 seasons, with yearly totals of:

1065
1251
1597
1463
1204
1063
1074

Chamberlain is the most dominate offensive player in NBA history. No one else is even close.

At this point in their respective careers, Wilt has made twice as many field goals and scored twice as many points as Jokic. That has more to do with Wilt's dominance than any other factor. Pace is a red herring that is not a significant factor in the huge gap in productivity.

Sent from my SM-N960U using RealGM mobile app

And yet his team's offense was down right terrible while he was doing all of this. And by no means did Jokic have a worse set of teammates relative to era last year where he still at the 6th best offense in a 30 team league. The reality is, Wilt shot too much. Wilt is in the conversation for best defender in NBA history, he's simply not in that discussion for best offensive player.

We live in an era when almost any statistical accomplishment can be denigrated with some Alice-In-Wonderland-like distortion that stretches reality to the point of being unrecognizable. I assume there is some obtuse measure by which Chamberlain's team had a "down right terrible" offense in 1961-62, but what I see is a team that led the league in points scored with over 10,000 points. What would make the league leading offense "down right terrible"?


That was in a year when Chamberlain scored over 4,000 of his team's 10,000 points, averaged 20 made field goals per game and 10 made free throws per game. Chamberlain won the scoring title that season with 4,029 points. Bellamy was the runner up with 2,495, a difference of 1,534 points. Those are historic mind boggling numbers, that make Chamberlain's season the most individually dominant offensive performance I have ever seen.

What is more dominant than scoring the most points? Every explanation that I have heard that concludes some other player was more dominant turns out to be sheer nonsense, arguing for the sale of argument.

What is more dominant than scoring the most points?

[old skool]

Over his first 7 seasons, Jokic is averaging 571 made field goals per season. His career high is 764.

Wilt led the NBA in made field goals each of his first 7 seasons, with yearly totals of:

1065
1251
1597
1463
1204
1063
1074

Chamberlain is the most dominate offensive player in NBA history. No one else is even close.

At this point in their respective careers, Wilt has made twice as many field goals and scored twice as many points as Jokic. That has more to do with Wilt's dominance than any other factor. Pace is a red herring that is not a significant factor in the huge gap in productivity.

Sent from my SM-N960U using RealGM mobile app

And yet his team's offense was down right terrible while he was doing all of this. And by no means did Jokic have a worse set of teammates relative to era last year where he still at the 6th best offense in a 30 team league. The reality is, Wilt shot too much. Wilt is in the conversation for best defender in NBA history, he's simply not in that discussion for best offensive player.

We live in an era when almost any statistical accomplishment can be denigrated with some Alice-In-Wonderland-like distortion that stretches reality to the point of being unrecognizable. I assume there is some obtuse measure by which Chamberlain's team had a "down right terrible" offense in 1961-62, but what I see is a team that led the league in points scored with over 10,000 points. What would make the league leading offense "down right terrible"?

That was in a year when Chamberlain scored over 4,000 of his team's 10,000 points, averaged 20 made field goals per game and 10 made free throws per game. Chamberlain won the scoring title that season with 4,029 points. Bellamy was the runner up with 2,495, a difference of 1,534 points. Those are historic mind boggling numbers, that make Chamberlain's season the most individually dominant offensive performance I have ever seen.

What is more dominant than scoring the most points? Every explanation that I have heard that concludes some other player was more dominant turns out to be sheer nonsense, arguing for the sale of argument.

What is more dominant than scoring the most points?

[dhsilv2]

Over his first 7 seasons, Jokic is averaging 571 made field goals per season. His career high is 764.

Wilt led the NBA in made field goals each of his first 7 seasons, with yearly totals of:

1065
1251
1597
1463
1204
1063
1074

Chamberlain is the most dominate offensive player in NBA history. No one else is even close.

At this point in their respective careers, Wilt has made twice as many field goals and scored twice as many points as Jokic. That has more to do with Wilt's dominance than any other factor. Pace is a red herring that is not a significant factor in the huge gap in productivity.

Sent from my SM-N960U using RealGM mobile app

And yet his team's offense was down right terrible while he was doing all of this. And by no means did Jokic have a worse set of teammates relative to era last year where he still at the 6th best offense in a 30 team league. The reality is, Wilt shot too much. Wilt is in the conversation for best defender in NBA history, he's simply not in that discussion for best offensive player.

We live in an era when almost any statistical accomplishment can be denigrated with some Alice-In-Wonderland-like distortion that stretches reality to the point of being unrecognizable. I assume there is some obtuse measure by which Chamberlain's team had a "down right terrible" offense in 1961-62, but what I see is a team that led the league in points scored with over 10,000 points. What would make the league leading offense "down right terrible"?


That was in a year when Chamberlain scored over 4,000 of his team's 10,000 points, averaged 20 made field goals per game and 10 made free throws per game. Chamberlain won the scoring title that season with 4,029 points. Bellamy was the runner up with 2,495, a difference of 1,534 points. Those are historic mind boggling numbers, that make Chamberlain's season the most individually dominant offensive performance I have ever seen.

What is more dominant than scoring the most points? Every explanation that I have heard that concludes some other player was more dominant turns out to be sheer nonsense, arguing for the sale of argument.

What is more dominant than scoring the most points?

You keep refusing to accept pace. If you're just pushing pace, not scoring efficiently, you're not a great offense. It just means you're rushing shots and you get more shots thanks to giving the other team the ball back faster. There is nothing modern about this.

[70sFan]

Over his first 7 seasons, Jokic is averaging 571 made field goals per season. His career high is 764.

Wilt led the NBA in made field goals each of his first 7 seasons, with yearly totals of:

1065
1251
1597
1463
1204
1063
1074

Chamberlain is the most dominate offensive player in NBA history. No one else is even close.

At this point in their respective careers, Wilt has made twice as many field goals and scored twice as many points as Jokic. That has more to do with Wilt's dominance than any other factor. Pace is a red herring that is not a significant factor in the huge gap in productivity.

Sent from my SM-N960U using RealGM mobile app

And yet his team's offense was down right terrible while he was doing all of this. And by no means did Jokic have a worse set of teammates relative to era last year where he still at the 6th best offense in a 30 team league. The reality is, Wilt shot too much. Wilt is in the conversation for best defender in NBA history, he's simply not in that discussion for best offensive player.

1962 Warriors had +2.0 rORtg with Wilt scoring 50 ppg...

[old skool]

I acknowledge that pace matters, among other things. But I don't think that pace explains why Chamberlain scored twice as many points as Jokic at this point in the Joker's career.

The topic is discussing the greatest individual offensive peak in history. Not team offense. Not efficiency. Not style points.

Chamberlain just scored more points. The most individual offense in history by a wide margin.

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[dhsilv2]

Over his first 7 seasons, Jokic is averaging 571 made field goals per season. His career high is 764.

Wilt led the NBA in made field goals each of his first 7 seasons, with yearly totals of:

1065
1251
1597
1463
1204
1063
1074

Chamberlain is the most dominate offensive player in NBA history. No one else is even close.

At this point in their respective careers, Wilt has made twice as many field goals and scored twice as many points as Jokic. That has more to do with Wilt's dominance than any other factor. Pace is a red herring that is not a significant factor in the huge gap in productivity.

Sent from my SM-N960U using RealGM mobile app

And yet his team's offense was down right terrible while he was doing all of this. And by no means did Jokic have a worse set of teammates relative to era last year where he still at the 6th best offense in a 30 team league. The reality is, Wilt shot too much. Wilt is in the conversation for best defender in NBA history, he's simply not in that discussion for best offensive player.

1962 Warriors had +2.0 rORtg with Wilt scoring 50 ppg...

Wilt was clearly a plus offensive player and he really only had 2-3 quality teammates that year imo. I'm not putting down Wilt by ANY context other than claiming him to be one of the greatest offensive players of all time.

[kuclas]

People that expect all time great players to carry regular guys that are overpaid to glory will never be satisfied.

Jokic plays with a cast of nobodies outside of Jamal Murray, MPJ and Aaron Gordon who are just above average starters.

Jokic third best player at one time was Will Barton.

Will Barton.

You take Jokic off of the Nuggets and it is a lottery team. That's carrying.

Take lebron from number 1 seed cavs 2009-2010 with mo Williams. Cavs became worse team. But the difference is lebron will the cavs to at least eastern finals.

Heck lebron willed 2007 cavs to nba finals himself.

If you think the nuggets roster was bad. Look at the cavaliers. 2017-2018 cavs roster wasn’t much better.

[dhsilv2]

I acknowledge that pace matters, among other things. But I don't think that pace explains why Chamberlain scored twice as many points as Jokic at this point in the Joker's career.

The topic is discussing the greatest individual offensive peak in history. Not team offense. Not efficiency. Not style points.

Chamberlain just scored more points. The most individual offense in history by a wide margin.

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Magic is considered among the greatest offensive players of all time and is generally seen as a better offensive player than Wilt. Individual scoring and offense are FAR from the same thing. Generally guys considered in the GOAT tier offensively were able to consistently elevate their teams to all time great offensive results vs the league they were in. Wilt wasn't doing this. West for example over Wilt's career was pretty clearly a better offensive player at the time, but he didn't score more.

[70sFan]

And yet his team's offense was down right terrible while he was doing all of this. And by no means did Jokic have a worse set of teammates relative to era last year where he still at the 6th best offense in a 30 team league. The reality is, Wilt shot too much. Wilt is in the conversation for best defender in NBA history, he's simply not in that discussion for best offensive player.

1962 Warriors had +2.0 rORtg with Wilt scoring 50 ppg...

Wilt was clearly a plus offensive player and he really only had 2-3 quality teammates that year imo. I'm not putting down Wilt by ANY context other than claiming him to be one of the greatest offensive players of all time.

Sure, but you said his teams were horrible offensively, so you were wrong and I felt it would be good to correct it.