Donovan Mitchell could have had Jalen Brunson as a Teammate, What an Idiot! Fire his Agent/Advisors!!!

[stuporman]

I can see why you'd say that and I won't be surprised if we lose, but there are a few critical differences:
1) Robinson missed that series, so Capela tore us up and we couldn't do a thing to stop Trae's PNRs;
2) instead of banking on Rose coming off the bench, we're starting Brunson;
3) they've been playing with fans all season, whereas against the hawks the noise shook us;
4) this team does have that prior playoff experience; and
5) we're just a much more talented team than we were that year. This year we don't have anyone in the rotation who's offensively incompetent and by keeping two of Randle, Brunson, Barrett, or Quickley on the court at all times we always have good rim-pressure...against the hawks we started Payton & Noel which was like playing 3-on-5 offensively.

I wouldn't entertain bad faith arguments, it rarely bears any worthwhile fruit.

lol, I just got home a little bit ago & can't sleep.

Plus, people deserve the chance to prove they don't want to engage in good-faith discussion. If I get a reasonable response then cool, if all I get back is "banter" instead then no sweat off my back.

Anyone who is reasonable would understand how the knicks are a better basketball team this season than two years ago but the Cavs are a better team than the Hawks were two years ago. It's going to be a pretty competitive series with some interesting storylines to it but I suspect the Cavs will be favored to win going in.

Especially if Randle isn't 100% to start but who knows what the actual health of the two teams will be a few games from now, it doesn't take but a moment to change dramatically in that regard. I want to see these teams at full strength going at it, they have worked all season for this opportunity, it would be cruel if they were robbed of it.

[neo515]

TBF the playoffs aren't the regular season. It won't be a surprise if we lose in round 1, but it also won't be a shock if we take them out.

I'm getting some 2021 Knicks/Hawks vibes here. Everyone was acting like the Knicks were going to breeze through the Hawks, every single person at ESPN picked the Knicks, Knicks fans were acting cocky... and then they were lucky to win a single game because the Hawks were just way more talented. The Cavs will be huge favorites in this matchup and I'd be surprised if it goes more than 5-6 games.

I can see why you'd say that and I won't be surprised if we lose, but there are a few critical differences:
1) Robinson missed that series, so Capela tore us up and we couldn't do a thing to stop Trae's PNRs;
2) instead of banking on Rose coming off the bench, we're starting Brunson;
3) they've been playing with fans all season, whereas against the hawks the noise shook us;
4) this team does have that prior playoff experience; and
5) we're just a much more talented team than we were that year. This year we don't have anyone in the rotation who's offensively incompetent and by keeping two of Randle, Brunson, Barrett, or Quickley on the court at all times we always have good rim-pressure...against the hawks we started Payton & Noel which was like playing 3-on-5 offensively.

So the cavs will be understandably favored, but I'm optimistic this series won't go the way that one did.

The Knicks are definitely a better team now than they were in 2021, but the Cavs are also better than those Hawks, who were a 5th seed that year and and playing under an interim coach who took over halfway through the year. You also don't have Rose playing like a borderline all-star this year. He was easily the Knicks' best player in that series. You say that you don't have anyone who's offensively incompetent on this year's team, but the only major addition has been Brunson and the return of offensively incompetent Mitchell Robinson.

I'm actually from NYC and used to have a close business relationship with the Knicks/MSG, so I've been to a ton of games and always had a soft spot for the Knicks even if they were never my #1 team. I just don't think very highly of Randle and Barrett, and outside of Brunson and to a lesser extent Hart & IQ, they're at a talent disadvantage compared to most teams in the league. Maybe if Randle shows that he's not a complete trainwreck in this year's playoffs, I'll start giving him more respect, but I think he's a headcase who'll disappoint yet again and Brunson alone won't be enough to carry the team.

[cgf]

I'm getting some 2021 Knicks/Hawks vibes here. Everyone was acting like the Knicks were going to breeze through the Hawks, every single person at ESPN picked the Knicks, Knicks fans were acting cocky... and then they were lucky to win a single game because the Hawks were just way more talented. The Cavs will be huge favorites in this matchup and I'd be surprised if it goes more than 5-6 games.

I can see why you'd say that and I won't be surprised if we lose, but there are a few critical differences:
1) Robinson missed that series, so Capela tore us up and we couldn't do a thing to stop Trae's PNRs;
2) instead of banking on Rose coming off the bench, we're starting Brunson;
3) they've been playing with fans all season, whereas against the hawks the noise shook us;
4) this team does have that prior playoff experience; and
5) we're just a much more talented team than we were that year. This year we don't have anyone in the rotation who's offensively incompetent and by keeping two of Randle, Brunson, Barrett, or Quickley on the court at all times we always have good rim-pressure...against the hawks we started Payton & Noel which was like playing 3-on-5 offensively.

So the cavs will be understandably favored, but I'm optimistic this series won't go the way that one did.

The Knicks are definitely a better team now than they were in 2021, but the Cavs are also better than those Hawks, who were a 5th seed that year and and playing under an interim coach who took over halfway through the year. You also don't have Rose playing like a borderline all-star this year. He was easily the Knicks' best player in that series. You say that you don't have anyone who's offensively incompetent on this year's team, but the only major addition has been Brunson and the return of offensively incompetent Mitchell Robinson.

I'm actually from NYC and used to have a close business relationship with the Knicks/MSG, so I've been to a ton of games and always had a soft spot for the Knicks even if they were never my #1 team. I just don't think very highly of Randle and Barrett, and outside of Brunson and to a lesser extent Hart & IQ, they're at a talent disadvantage compared to most teams in the league. Maybe if Randle shows that he's not a complete trainwreck in this year's playoffs, I'll start giving him more respect, but I think he's a headcase who'll disappoint yet again and Brunson alone won't be enough to carry the team.

? IIRC Rose started to run out of gas in that series and being moved into the starting lineup really hampered his effectiveness...IQ is currently playing much better than Rose played in that series.

Anyways, on top of Quickley & Barrett's progress, our rotation has added Brunson, Grimes, Hart, & Hartenstein. Obviously, not everyone on the roster is a great offensive player, but there just isn't an Elfrid Payton or Nerlens Noel in the rotation who hurts the offense when he's out there.

...and replacing Noel with Robinson makes a huge difference. You can claim that Mitch is offensively incompetent because he can't hit a FT, but he can catch a pass, sets good screens, is a great finisher around the rim, and is a dominant offensive rebounder...that's an absolutely massive upgrade from Noel; nevermind how much better Mitch is defensively.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

I'm getting some 2021 Knicks/Hawks vibes here. Everyone was acting like the Knicks were going to breeze through the Hawks, every single person at ESPN picked the Knicks, Knicks fans were acting cocky... and then they were lucky to win a single game because the Hawks were just way more talented. The Cavs will be huge favorites in this matchup and I'd be surprised if it goes more than 5-6 games.

I can see why you'd say that and I won't be surprised if we lose, but there are a few critical differences:
1) Robinson missed that series, so Capela tore us up and we couldn't do a thing to stop Trae's PNRs;
2) instead of banking on Rose coming off the bench, we're starting Brunson;
3) they've been playing with fans all season, whereas against the hawks the noise shook us;
4) this team does have that prior playoff experience; and
5) we're just a much more talented team than we were that year. This year we don't have anyone in the rotation who's offensively incompetent and by keeping two of Randle, Brunson, Barrett, or Quickley on the court at all times we always have good rim-pressure...against the hawks we started Payton & Noel which was like playing 3-on-5 offensively.

So the cavs will be understandably favored, but I'm optimistic this series won't go the way that one did.

The Knicks are definitely a better team now than they were in 2021, but the Cavs are also better than those Hawks, who were a 5th seed that year and and playing under an interim coach who took over halfway through the year. You also don't have Rose playing like a borderline all-star this year. He was easily the Knicks' best player in that series. You say that you don't have anyone who's offensively incompetent on this year's team, but the only major addition has been Brunson and the return of offensively incompetent Mitchell Robinson.

I'm actually from NYC and used to have a close business relationship with the Knicks/MSG, so I've been to a ton of games and always had a soft spot for the Knicks even if they were never my #1 team. I just don't think very highly of Randle and Barrett, and outside of Brunson and to a lesser extent Hart & IQ, they're at a talent disadvantage compared to most teams in the league. Maybe if Randle shows that he's not a complete trainwreck in this year's playoffs, I'll start giving him more respect, but I think he's a headcase who'll disappoint yet again and Brunson alone won't be enough to carry the team.

The other major addition is Grimes, if you really watched as many Knick games as you claim you'd know that. He's shooting 44% from three post ASB in addition to being an elite defender and developing game attacking off the dribble.



The Cavs are good but I will never trust a team with a frontcourt like theirs + Okoro in a playoff setting, that's just going to lead to so many spacing issues in the playoffs and Garland/Mitchell needing to do everything. The Knicks can't stop Mitchell, but Garland has struggled against IQ/Grimes all season, and if he's not scoring efficiently their offense is in some trouble. For all his faults, Thibodeau knows how to scheme against a team that doesn't have a stretch big.

[FranchisePlayer]

Despite the horrible title I enjoy the content in this thread. Mucho.

[Ph@t Joe]

Hmmm, let's see what would you rather have?

Donovan Mitchell

or

Quickley
Grimes
Barrett
UnProtected 2023 First Round Pick
UnProtected 2024 First Round Pick Swap
UnProtected 2025 First Round Pick
UnProtected 2026 First Round Pick Swap
UnProtected 2027 First Round Pick

Plus the Knicks wouldn't have been able to acquire Josh Hart because they traded their 2023 1st Rd for him, the other protected picks the Knicks have from Dallas/Washington suck, another playoff team would have snatched him up.

So essentially it's

Donovan Mitchell

or

Josh Hart
Quickley
Grimes
Barrett
UnProtected 2024 First Round Pick Swap
UnProtected 2025 First Round Pick
UnProtected 2026 First Round Pick Swap
UnProtected 2027 First Round Pick


Come on, what would you rather have?

[QingJames]

Hmmm, let's see what would you rather have?

Donovan Mitchell

or

Quickley
Grimes
Barrett
UnProtected 2023 First Round Pick
UnProtected 2024 First Round Pick Swap
UnProtected 2025 First Round Pick
UnProtected 2026 First Round Pick Swap
UnProtected 2027 First Round Pick

Plus the Knicks wouldn't have been able to acquire Josh Hart because they traded their 2023 1st Rd for him, the other protected picks the Knicks have from Dallas/Washington suck, another playoff team would have snatched him up.

So essentially it's

Donovan Mitchell

or

Josh Hart
Quickley
Grimes
Barrett
UnProtected 2024 First Round Pick Swap
UnProtected 2025 First Round Pick
UnProtected 2026 First Round Pick Swap
UnProtected 2027 First Round Pick


Come on, what would you rather have?

It's entirely contextual. I don't even like Mitchell, I think he's a fringe top-30 guy when you consider his strengths and weaknesses alongside what kind of players have consistently proven to provide solid championship equity in the past 15 years (undersized combo chuckers with bad defense ain't it). That said, if you're the Cavs you're taking Mitchell over that poopoo platter 10/10 times. Hart, Quickley and Grimes are solid roleplayers. I don't know why you included Barrett because he's terrible and has a massive negative value contract. Picks are a crapshoot.

You would take that Knicks side of the deal if you're in asset accumulation mode during a rebuild. But if your hope is to compete for a championship, obviously you'd rather have Mitchell than that Knicks side of the deal because none of the picks or players involved are going to raise your ceiling. Mitchell might, even if I am very skeptical of pairing him alongside another defensively-challenged guard.

[stuporman]

I will say there is a 'similarity' perception of this Knicks team to the team two years ago.

Both exceeded the expectations many had for them so how it ended crashing last time may subconsciously rub off on this season's team. Even though it's clearly apparent it's a much improved team there's this haunting doub about it echoing from the reminder of the past also including the past 20 years not just two years ago.

This isn't lost on Knicks fans, they live with the effects of battered fan syndrome every day.

The Cavs were in a batter position as a franchise to take the risk in giving up so much in draft capital for Mitchell and they also didn't have to give up any of their 3 top core players. All they need to do now is fill in the blanks with a couple of superglue role players as well as let some player development takes place to become contenders.

The Knicks couldn't take that risk going all in with where the franchise was at last summer, they had too many unanswered questions. Yet now they are further along than anticipated because of the rise to stardom by Brunson, some solid youth development and adding a couple of those superglue role players.

Even though the Knicks are just below the level of contender status since they are missing that one top dog player and well positioned to add that piece, they have to be careful. Pick the wrong player to add and it can wipe away this opportunity, there are some landmines out there they have to avoid. Don't blow it.

[babyjax13]

Jalen "Damn" Son just dropped 48 Points on the Cavs!

Why didn't Donovan Mitchell work the back channels and let Danny Ainge know that if he got traded that he only wanted to play for the New York Knicks?

He really dropped the ball here. He played Mr. Nice guy and let Trader Danny know it didn't matter where he got traded. His Agent and Advisors really selfishly hurt his Career!

And Think about all the Extra Money Donovan would have made in Endorsements because he's in the World's Biggest Market

Imagine a Jalen "Damn" Son & Donovan Mitchell backcourt?!?!

Only an idiot of the highest order would trade for RJ Barrett instead of Lauri. Ainge isn't that.

RJ had more value than Lauri at the time of the trade. There isn't much debating that.

I think there is easily a debate on that. RJ was due an extension, it was clear it would be large, and he isn't any better than the 3rd best starter on a playoff team. Inefficient scorer who uses a lot of possessions.

[Ph@t Joe]

Grimes is on a tear man

[Plutonashfan]

Wtf did I just read?

[Scalabrine]

Only an idiot of the highest order would trade for RJ Barrett instead of Lauri. Ainge isn't that.

RJ had more value than Lauri at the time of the trade. There isn't much debating that.

I think there is easily a debate on that. RJ was due an extension, it was clear it would be large, and he isn't any better than the 3rd best starter on a playoff team. Inefficient scorer who uses a lot of possessions.

I think youre clouded on what Lauri is now. We don't know what RJ would become had he been in Utah this year. Lauri wasn't considered more than a role player at best.

[babyjax13]

RJ had more value than Lauri at the time of the trade. There isn't much debating that.

I think there is easily a debate on that. RJ was due an extension, it was clear it would be large, and he isn't any better than the 3rd best starter on a playoff team. Inefficient scorer who uses a lot of possessions.

I think youre clouded on what Lauri is now. We don't know what RJ would become had he been in Utah this year. Lauri wasn't considered more than a role player at best.

I don't think I am clouded, I really do not like his game and never have. I would take almost any starting-caliber player over RJ Barrett.

[Former Nets Fan]

Dare I state the Obvious?

Grimes may become just as good as Mitchell sooner than later?

Read on Twitter

[JonFromVA]

Dare I state the Obvious?

Grimes may become just as good as Mitchell sooner than later?

Read on Twitter

Nice highlights, but keep in mind this was what Mitchell was doing as a rookie:

Watch on YouTube

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Dare I state the Obvious?

Grimes may become just as good as Mitchell sooner than later?

Read on Twitter

Nice highlights, but keep in mind this was what Mitchell was doing as a rookie:

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

[FranchisePlayer]

RJ had more value than Lauri at the time of the trade. There isn't much debating that.

I think there is easily a debate on that. RJ was due an extension, it was clear it would be large, and he isn't any better than the 3rd best starter on a playoff team. Inefficient scorer who uses a lot of possessions.

I think youre clouded on what Lauri is now. We don't know what RJ would become had he been in Utah this year. Lauri wasn't considered more than a role player at best.

Some considered him much more.

Ainge most certainly wouldn't have settled for a "role player at best" just to get Mitchell off his chest. The Cavs offered Love and Ainge refused.

What RJ would become in Utah...? Yeah, we don't know either what the rest of the league would become in Utah. Maybe better just stick to the facts we have in our disposal, ok.

[cgf]

I think there is easily a debate on that. RJ was due an extension, it was clear it would be large, and he isn't any better than the 3rd best starter on a playoff team. Inefficient scorer who uses a lot of possessions.

I think youre clouded on what Lauri is now. We don't know what RJ would become had he been in Utah this year. Lauri wasn't considered more than a role player at best.

I don't think I am clouded, I really do not like his game and never have. I would take almost any starting-caliber player over RJ Barrett.

Yeah, we disagree about RJ...or at least about the kind of player he's likely to become...but you have been very consistent with your opinion about him

[cgf]

Dare I state the Obvious?

Grimes may become just as good as Mitchell sooner than later?

Read on Twitter

Stop it. I remember liking Grimes when he looked like a future OAD prospect, so I've liked the kid for a long time and wouldn't be completely shocked if he did become a top 3 option on a contender...his defense, stroke, and ability to attack off the bounce are legit...but Spida can be the engine of an elite NBA offense and Quentin is unlikely to ever reach that level.

Sure we don't need him to be that next to Brunson & Randle, but it still makes a huge-ass difference

[cgf]

I think there is easily a debate on that. RJ was due an extension, it was clear it would be large, and he isn't any better than the 3rd best starter on a playoff team. Inefficient scorer who uses a lot of possessions.

I think youre clouded on what Lauri is now. We don't know what RJ would become had he been in Utah this year. Lauri wasn't considered more than a role player at best.

Some considered him much more.

Ainge most certainly wouldn't have settled for a "role player at best" just to get Mitchell off his chest. The Cavs offered Love and Ainge refused.

What RJ would become in Utah...? Yeah, we don't know either what the rest of the league would become in Utah. Maybe better just stick to the facts we have in our disposal, ok.

From what was being reported at the time, it was the 3rd unprotected FRP that we were refusing to give up, which swung things in favor of the Cavs once they got involved...not the prospects coming along with those picks. I'm sure Ainge hoped that Lauri & Sexton would both be allstars for the Jazz, but he wasn't banking on that to justify the trade.