NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (part 5 - The Final-er MVP Countdown!)

[The Rebel]

Best player in the world on the best team in the league averaging 31/12/5. Gets serious MVP discussion = People moving the goal post for Embiid.



oh brother, just give the pity MVP to Embiid so we can stop hearing Sixer fans have a victim complex.

The last thing they should do is give it to Embiid, let his fans and Embiid himself continue to cry about it, but give it to Giannis or Jokic at least both of them have real arguments to deserve it.

I mean I personally think all 3 are deserving. Embiid has just as good of a case as any of them.

It's just personally annoying when I see Sixers fans/Embiid/Morey have this sort of inferiority complex when they've been the runner up to MVP 2 years in a row and is currently the favorite to win MVP. Like enough with the sob story lol.

I understand but at the end of the day giving into them is just going to make it worse. Embiid shouldn't be in the top 2 and it is arguable if he has been better than Tatum at this point. 76er fans know it, that is why they organized the public smear campaign against Jokic. That is why they started attacking Giannis yesterday.

They know the only way they win is to tear down Embiid's competition. Sadly in today's world that works and you can see it in politics. It isn't what makes my guy better, it's tearing down the other guy so you don't have to even have to try to make your argument for the guy who has none.

Read through these threads, their entire argument is that Embiid hasn't won so he deserves it. They want us to ignore any possible criteria outside of that and have openly called everybody who uses criteria racists and hateds for not doing what they want

[The Rebel]

The case has been presented a million times in 5 different threads and it's been echoed in the voter straw poll and reflected in the betting odds that at this moment show Embiid as a moderate favourite.

If you've refused to listen to this preponderance of data to date, there is absolutely nothing I could say that would bring you to light at this point.

So you still don't have an argument? At least be honest about it.

The only arguments I have heard is that Embiid deserves it because certain people want him to win it and that voters are racist if they don't give it to him.

Yet you Embiid fans want everybody to ignore games played, stats when it comes to Giannis, advanced stats when it comes to Jokic, and just give it to the ducking crybaby because he isn't good enough to earn it.

I'm not an Embiid fan. I do appreciate his excellence however having watched him a lot especially with Raptors facing him in the playoffs a few times.

I'll do a quick rough synopsis for you in case you're late to these threads and have missed the arguments.

All 3 guys have gaudy counting stats. The flashiest stat is ppg and Embiid leads the league, a whole 8 points above Jokic. Jokic is however averaging a triple double, which would have already assured him his 3rd MVP had Russ not taken the shine off of it a few years earlier. Joker is also the most efficient of the 3 while Giannis is the least efficient.

Both Embiid and Freak are excellent defenders, while Joker is either poor or above average depending on the argument. Freak leads the best team in the NBA. Joker has the best record in the West, but has only 1 more win than Philly.

Head to head Embiid and Freak are even, Embiid killed Joker at home but didn't play him on the road where he'd be at a disadvantage. Not sure about Jokic vs Giannis head to head, that actually hasn't been brought up much and I haven't done the tally myself.

Joker had the edge in durability until the recent stretch of missed games that brought all 3 guys roughly on par in that respect. However, Giannis has to play 3 out of the next 4 games just to get to the 65 game threshold, which may not happen.

Joker also leads in most advanced stats, but you'd have to be a moron to respect the advanced stats that state that Jokic is by far the best defender in the league and one of the best defenders in league history.

There is also the less tangible precedent argument where Giannis might get an edge from being a champ, Embiid might get an edge from being the back to back runner-up and Joker might take a hit from being a back to back winner but a playoff loser. We know these factors have an impact on at least some voters but it's exceedingly hard to pin down the extent of the impact.

I think that's the summation and there was a deep dive on each of these points over the course of these 5 threads.

So your entire argument is PPG, one game the other of which Embiid ducked, and your eye test on defense?

No wonder you guys have to attack Jokic and Giannis.

[Wolfgang630]

If Embiid is good tonight and the Sixers win I wonder if Perkins will say he’s the mvp. And I wonder if Embiid doesn’t play so well and they lose if it’ll hurt him.

[Kurtz]

So you still don't have an argument? At least be honest about it.

The only arguments I have heard is that Embiid deserves it because certain people want him to win it and that voters are racist if they don't give it to him.

Yet you Embiid fans want everybody to ignore games played, stats when it comes to Giannis, advanced stats when it comes to Jokic, and just give it to the ducking crybaby because he isn't good enough to earn it.

I'm not an Embiid fan. I do appreciate his excellence however having watched him a lot especially with Raptors facing him in the playoffs a few times.

I'll do a quick rough synopsis for you in case you're late to these threads and have missed the arguments.

All 3 guys have gaudy counting stats. The flashiest stat is ppg and Embiid leads the league, a whole 8 points above Jokic. Jokic is however averaging a triple double, which would have already assured him his 3rd MVP had Russ not taken the shine off of it a few years earlier. Joker is also the most efficient of the 3 while Giannis is the least efficient.

Both Embiid and Freak are excellent defenders, while Joker is either poor or above average depending on the argument. Freak leads the best team in the NBA. Joker has the best record in the West, but has only 1 more win than Philly.

Head to head Embiid and Freak are even, Embiid killed Joker at home but didn't play him on the road where he'd be at a disadvantage. Not sure about Jokic vs Giannis head to head, that actually hasn't been brought up much and I haven't done the tally myself.

Joker had the edge in durability until the recent stretch of missed games that brought all 3 guys roughly on par in that respect. However, Giannis has to play 3 out of the next 4 games just to get to the 65 game threshold, which may not happen.

Joker also leads in most advanced stats, but you'd have to be a moron to respect the advanced stats that state that Jokic is by far the best defender in the league and one of the best defenders in league history.

There is also the less tangible precedent argument where Giannis might get an edge from being a champ, Embiid might get an edge from being the back to back runner-up and Joker might take a hit from being a back to back winner but a playoff loser. We know these factors have an impact on at least some voters but it's exceedingly hard to pin down the extent of the impact.

I think that's the summation and there was a deep dive on each of these points over the course of these 5 threads.

So your entire argument is PPG, one game the other of which Embiid ducked, and your eye test on defense?

No wonder you guys have to attack Jokic and Giannis.

Sigh, I knew my time would be wasted on a homer who is incapable of dealing with objective reality.

And you continue to make silly, obtuse accusations that have no foundation in truth. For instance, I've never attacked Giannis - in fact I just said like a page ago that I've made an additional bet on him, and have said all along that him winning would fall in line with precedent of giving the award to the best player on the best team.

I've also never attacked Jokic - pointing out that he's far from the elite defender that advanced stats erroneously suggest is not an attack but rather a statement of fact. If you'd rather default to these clearly erroneous public stats instead of believing your own eyes on these 3, then that's your problem.

The only other critique I offered on Joker was that he doesn't take enough shots, which imo is valid.

Don't insult people as homers. It's not the most egregious insult in the world but when you use it to insult people, yes it's an insult and not allowed. -b

[The Rebel]

I'm not an Embiid fan. I do appreciate his excellence however having watched him a lot especially with Raptors facing him in the playoffs a few times.

I'll do a quick rough synopsis for you in case you're late to these threads and have missed the arguments.

All 3 guys have gaudy counting stats. The flashiest stat is ppg and Embiid leads the league, a whole 8 points above Jokic. Jokic is however averaging a triple double, which would have already assured him his 3rd MVP had Russ not taken the shine off of it a few years earlier. Joker is also the most efficient of the 3 while Giannis is the least efficient.

Both Embiid and Freak are excellent defenders, while Joker is either poor or above average depending on the argument. Freak leads the best team in the NBA. Joker has the best record in the West, but has only 1 more win than Philly.

Head to head Embiid and Freak are even, Embiid killed Joker at home but didn't play him on the road where he'd be at a disadvantage. Not sure about Jokic vs Giannis head to head, that actually hasn't been brought up much and I haven't done the tally myself.

Joker had the edge in durability until the recent stretch of missed games that brought all 3 guys roughly on par in that respect. However, Giannis has to play 3 out of the next 4 games just to get to the 65 game threshold, which may not happen.

Joker also leads in most advanced stats, but you'd have to be a moron to respect the advanced stats that state that Jokic is by far the best defender in the league and one of the best defenders in league history.

There is also the less tangible precedent argument where Giannis might get an edge from being a champ, Embiid might get an edge from being the back to back runner-up and Joker might take a hit from being a back to back winner but a playoff loser. We know these factors have an impact on at least some voters but it's exceedingly hard to pin down the extent of the impact.

I think that's the summation and there was a deep dive on each of these points over the course of these 5 threads.

So your entire argument is PPG, one game the other of which Embiid ducked, and your eye test on defense?

No wonder you guys have to attack Jokic and Giannis.

Sigh, I knew my time would be wasted on a homer who is incapable of dealing with objective reality.

And you continue to make silly, obtuse accusations that have no foundation in truth. I've never attacked Giannis - in fact I just said like a page ago that I've made an additional bet on him, and have said all along that him winning would fall in line with precedent of giving the award to the best player on the best team.

I've also never attacked Jokic - pointing out that he's far from the elite defender that advanced stats point him as is not an attack. The only other critique I offered on him was that he doesn't take enough shots, which imo is valid.

So now you resort to name calling but still cannot make a comprehensive argument for your guy.

According to me and stats Jokic stops 3.5 more baskets a game than Embiid and I have used stats to show that multiple times in the 4th thread and in the Jokic defense thread, add in the advanced stats and it is pretty obvious your eye test is wrong. It is nobody's fault but your own if you don't understand what actual defense is.

But keep calling me names and attacking me, it so helps your argument as we both know you don't have one.

[Kurtz]

So your entire argument is PPG, one game the other of which Embiid ducked, and your eye test on defense?

No wonder you guys have to attack Jokic and Giannis.

Sigh, I knew my time would be wasted on a homer who is incapable of dealing with objective reality.

And you continue to make silly, obtuse accusations that have no foundation in truth. I've never attacked Giannis - in fact I just said like a page ago that I've made an additional bet on him, and have said all along that him winning would fall in line with precedent of giving the award to the best player on the best team.

I've also never attacked Jokic - pointing out that he's far from the elite defender that advanced stats point him as is not an attack. The only other critique I offered on him was that he doesn't take enough shots, which imo is valid.

So now you resort to name calling but still cannot make a comprehensive argument for your guy.

According to me and stats Jokic stops 3.5 more baskets a game than Embiid and I have used stats to show that multiple times in the 4th thread and in the Jokic defense thread, add in the advanced stats and it is pretty obvious your eye test is wrong. It is nobody's fault but your own if you don't understand what actual defense is.

But keep calling me names and attacking me, it so helps your argument as we both know you don't have one.

The only name I called you was "homer". Is that what offends you so dearly? Am I wrong in assessing you as one?

[Sharkboy242]

Joker also leads in most advanced stats, but you'd have to be a moron to respect the advanced stats that state that Jokic is by far the best defender in the league and one of the best defenders in league history.

Your limitations to understanding what advanced stats do or don't state is your problem, not the stats'. And besides, DRPM has Jokic ranked at 80th. But yeah let's just bunch them all up and throw them away because we don't like numbers.

[The Rebel]

Sigh, I knew my time would be wasted on a homer who is incapable of dealing with objective reality.

And you continue to make silly, obtuse accusations that have no foundation in truth. I've never attacked Giannis - in fact I just said like a page ago that I've made an additional bet on him, and have said all along that him winning would fall in line with precedent of giving the award to the best player on the best team.

I've also never attacked Jokic - pointing out that he's far from the elite defender that advanced stats point him as is not an attack. The only other critique I offered on him was that he doesn't take enough shots, which imo is valid.

So now you resort to name calling but still cannot make a comprehensive argument for your guy.

According to me and stats Jokic stops 3.5 more baskets a game than Embiid and I have used stats to show that multiple times in the 4th thread and in the Jokic defense thread, add in the advanced stats and it is pretty obvious your eye test is wrong. It is nobody's fault but your own if you don't understand what actual defense is.

But keep calling me names and attacking me, it so helps your argument as we both know you don't have one.

The only name I called you was "homer". Is that what offends you so dearly? Am I wrong in assessing you as one?

Homer is ment to be an insult and yes it is wrong to call me a homer when I can use facts to back up my argument all you you have is insults and attacks. The only homers in this thread are those like you using insults and attacks because you have no actual argument.

By the way it doesn't offend me, it just makes me realize the truth about you and how ignorant you really are.

Personal attacks are not allowed. Don't call people ignorant. Debate the post, don't insult the poster. -b

[Kurtz]

Joker also leads in most advanced stats, but you'd have to be a moron to respect the advanced stats that state that Jokic is by far the best defender in the league and one of the best defenders in league history.

Your limitations to understanding what advanced stats do or don't state is your problem, not the stats'. And besides, DRPM has Jokic ranked at 80th. But yeah let's just bunch them all up and throw them away because we don't like numbers.

Provocative claim - I'd like to see you prove it. Let's take a look at Defensive Box Plus minus, which is a component of several advanced stats.

DBPM ranks Joker as by far the best defender in the league. As you claim to have superior understanding of these, please prove to me that this is a valid rating.

And here's an all-time list where this stat ranks Joker as the 5th best of all time, ahead of guys like Wallace and Hakeem:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dbpm_career.html

So yes, do go on and explain how this is accurate and we shouldn't throw it away.

[Kurtz]

So now you resort to name calling but still cannot make a comprehensive argument for your guy.

According to me and stats Jokic stops 3.5 more baskets a game than Embiid and I have used stats to show that multiple times in the 4th thread and in the Jokic defense thread, add in the advanced stats and it is pretty obvious your eye test is wrong. It is nobody's fault but your own if you don't understand what actual defense is.

But keep calling me names and attacking me, it so helps your argument as we both know you don't have one.

The only name I called you was "homer". Is that what offends you so dearly? Am I wrong in assessing you as one?

Homer is ment to be an insult and yes it is wrong to call me a homer when I can use facts to back up my argument all you you have is insults and attacks. The only homers in this thread are those like you using insults and attacks because you have no actual argument.

By the way it doesn't offend me, it just makes me realize the truth about you and how ignorant you really are.

So you get offended by the term "homer"...which perhaps you don't comprehend because you call me homer when I'm clearly a Raptors fan...and then you end your pity party by throwing a tantrum and calling me "ignorant".

Pathetic.

[Mickey8]

Anyone but shameless stat padding duffy duck, biggest cry baby and coward in the league who is about to get bounced out in the first round of the play off's.

[Wolfgang630]

If Jokic doesn’t play tonight I think he’s officially done. Not playing 4 games in a row when some voters are still undecided means you give them nothing to go on at the end. Obviously he’s hurt so he’s not playing. But that effectively will kill him winning mvp.

[Sharkboy242]

Joker also leads in most advanced stats, but you'd have to be a moron to respect the advanced stats that state that Jokic is by far the best defender in the league and one of the best defenders in league history.

Your limitations to understanding what advanced stats do or don't state is your problem, not the stats'. And besides, DRPM has Jokic ranked at 80th. But yeah let's just bunch them all up and throw them away because we don't like numbers.

Provocative claim - I'd like to see you prove it. Let's take a look at Defensive Box Plus minus, which is a component of several advanced stats.

DBPM ranks Joker as by far the best defender in the league. As you claim to have superior understanding of these, please prove to me that this is a valid rating.

And here's an all-time list where this stat ranks Joker as the 5th best of all time, ahead of guys like Wallace and Hakeem:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dbpm_career.html

So yes, do go on and explain how this is accurate and we shouldn't throw it away.

My bad, I misread that you said "Advanced stats that state Jokic is by far the best defender" and not just Advanced stats in general. If that's your take though, you still disregarded advanced stats in general based on a few "bad apple" defensive stats that you don't like. I'm not here to argue that DBPM is a good stat.

Taking a step back - it's annoying in general seeing people present offense and defense as a dichotomy when the reality isn't they aren't. Basketball isn't played like football where it's an offensive set followed by defensive set. There's fluidity between the two and one side always affects the other. When you acknowledge this and the nuances it entails, it's stilly to expect the numbers to be able to decouple this false dichotomy.

[losmi]

I actually just want Embiid to win so all the crying from Philly fans and all the race baiters can just shut up already.

Give him one and he'll ask for more. Next year, he'll cry even louder while playing only when and where he wants, because it worked once. They should give him zero 1st place votes this year to shut his mouth up, and he should be laughed off if he ever mentions the award again. That's how you deal with annoying cowards.

[liquidswords]

I actually just want Embiid to win so all the crying from Philly fans and all the race baiters can just shut up already.

Give him one and he'll ask for more. Next year, he'll cry even louder while playing only when and where he wants, because it worked once. They should give him zero 1st place votes this year to shut his mouth up, and he should be laughed off if he ever mentions the award again. That's how you deal with annoying cowards.

A 33/10/4 with elite defense and unlimited bag CRYBABY. Yup.

[AleksandarN]

If Jokic doesn’t play tonight I think he’s officially done. Not playing 4 games in a row when some voters are still undecided means you give them nothing to go on at the end. Obviously he’s hurt so he’s not playing. But that effectively will kill him winning mvp.

The Suns game on tnt will be a good indicator if he doesn’t play then it is for sure over. All I care is a healthy nuggets team forget mvp

[Exp0sed]

The last thing they should do is give it to Embiid, let his fans and Embiid himself continue to cry about it, but give it to Giannis or Jokic at least both of them have real arguments to deserve it.

I actually think it'll be funny as hell if Embiid wins
just imagine, after two years of the constant clamoring about how Jokic can't be MVP because of lack of postseason success..
Embiid wins it and goes on to be bounced in the 2nd rd again

what are they gonna say next year?

it'll be hillarious and will involved an unprecedented level of squirming haha

[Kurtz]

Your limitations to understanding what advanced stats do or don't state is your problem, not the stats'. And besides, DRPM has Jokic ranked at 80th. But yeah let's just bunch them all up and throw them away because we don't like numbers.

Provocative claim - I'd like to see you prove it. Let's take a look at Defensive Box Plus minus, which is a component of several advanced stats.

DBPM ranks Joker as by far the best defender in the league. As you claim to have superior understanding of these, please prove to me that this is a valid rating.

And here's an all-time list where this stat ranks Joker as the 5th best of all time, ahead of guys like Wallace and Hakeem:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dbpm_career.html

So yes, do go on and explain how this is accurate and we shouldn't throw it away.

My bad, I misread that you said "Advanced stats that state Jokic is by far the best defender" and not just Advanced stats in general. If that's your take though, you still disregarded advanced stats in general based on a few "bad apple" defensive stats that you don't like. I'm not here to argue that DBPM is a good stat.

Taking a step back - it's annoying in general seeing people present offense and defense as a dichotomy when the reality isn't they aren't. Basketball isn't played like football where it's an offensive set followed by defensive set. There's fluidity between the two and one side always affects the other. When you acknowledge this and the nuances it entails, it's stilly to expect the numbers to be able to decouple this false dichotomy.

The advanced stats that measure only offense and rebounding (like PER) are considerably less flawed than stats that try to incorporate defense. I think Joker still carries an edge in those type of stats, but it's a much more marginal advantage than the stats that try and do a poor job of incorporating defense present.

You have a point about offense and defense being interconnected in basketball. But we can't dismiss that side of the ball entirely - it's better to try to measure that too.

So what components of offense influence defense and can be measured?

- Most obvious one is turnovers. All 3 guys are high turnover players so that's probably a push.
- Offensive efficiency. If you score, you can set up your defense. As the most efficient scorer, Joker gets the edge here - although it's blunted by him taking the least shots.
- Free throws. If you get to the line, you allow your defense to set up. This is an area where foul merchants like Embiid and Giannis carry a big advantage, as each gets to the line at twice Jokic's rate.

That's all that occurs to me at this point. Note that I'm not insisting that defense matters as much as offense for this award, but we can't waive it away entirely, especially from the C position.

[brettski]

If Embiid is good tonight and the Sixers win I wonder if Perkins will say he’s the mvp. And I wonder if Embiid doesn’t play so well and they lose if it’ll hurt him.

What if he plays badly but they still win?

[losmi]

Looks like Jokic is coming back for the last four games.

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