What's the strongest data-driven argument for Michael Jordan as GOAT?

[NyKnicks1714]

This is a great example of how impossible it is to have real discussions here. OP specifically asks for data-driven arguments for Jordan as GOAT and instead we get a flood of the same old nuance-free copypastas. "LOL JJ Barea...too young too have seen Jordan...6 for 6...didn't need to team up...". Wacky idea: if you think Jordan is the GOAT, but have nothing to contribute re: the thread topic, sit this one out. You'll get a chance to say the same thing we've heard a billion times tomorrow.

Props to the 1 or 2 people who presented actual data.

[DB23]

Jordan never made it past the first round of the playoffs without Pippen...

Let’s put these players in order…

Scottie pippen -3*joint
Anthony Davis -1
Dwayne wade 2
Chris bosh -4
Kyrie irving -3 *joint
Kevin love -5
Dennis Rodman -6
Toni kukoc -7

Lebron has played with so much more talent it’s crazy to use the pippen argument

[Taj FTW]

Jordan never made it past the first round of the playoffs without Pippen...

Let’s put these players in order…

Scottie pippen -3*joint
Anthony Davis -1
Dwayne wade 2
Chris bosh -4
Kyrie irving -3 *joint
Kevin love -5
Dennis Rodman -6
Toni kukoc -7

Lebron has played with so much more talent it’s crazy to use the pippen argument

You forget MJ played with "The Chief" Robert Parish and "The A-Train" Artis Gilmore? What are those guys, chumps?

[MavsDirk41]

Oh come on. No team MJ faced sniffs those Spurs or Warriors teams. That's all I'm saying.

The 2017/2018 Warriors yes. But Jordan never averaged 18 points per game in the finals too.

I'm sorry, but if you think the only superior Lebron opponent to any of MJ's is that Warriors team, you need a history lesson. Those Spurs teams that the Heat faced were insanely cohesive. The KD Warrior teams? The Spurs when LBJ was in Cleveland?

The only player that Jordan played with who made the allstar team while playing with him is Scottie Pippen. Grant made the allstar team one year with Orlando. Rodman made the allstar team twice with Detroit in his early years. Kukoc never made the allstar team.

James had two allstar teammates in Wade and Bosh during those 4 years he played in Miami. Jordan never played on a team as great as that.

[MavsDirk41]

Lebron was 26 to start that season and was already on his second Finals appearance. Jordan had yet to go to the Finals at that age.

Jordan played college ball at UNC and hit the winning shot to beat Georgetown in the national championship. He came into the league older….

That doesn't mean anything.

Why?

[MavsDirk41]

'07 Spurs and '15 Warriors as well.

Yep, those 2 seasons as well.

Lol young james fan boys

[MavsDirk41]

Jordan never made it past the first round of the playoffs without Pippen...

Let’s put these players in order…

Scottie pippen -3*joint
Anthony Davis -1
Dwayne wade 2
Chris bosh -4
Kyrie irving -3 *joint
Kevin love -5
Dennis Rodman -6
Toni kukoc -7

Lebron has played with so much more talent it’s crazy to use the pippen argument

You forget MJ played with "The Chief" Robert Parish and "The A-Train" Artis Gilmore? What are those guys, chumps?

And James played with Dwight Howard, Carmelo Anthony, and Russell Westbrook. What are those guys kid? Chumps?

[SelfishPlayer]

Jordan never made it past the first round of the playoffs without Pippen...

Let’s put these players in order…

Scottie pippen -3*joint
Anthony Davis -1
Dwayne wade 2
Chris bosh -4
Kyrie irving -3 *joint
Kevin love -5
Dennis Rodman -6
Toni kukoc -7

Lebron has played with so much more talent it’s crazy to use the pippen argument

Richard Hamilton?

[Hitachi77]

Every time the 6/6 finals argument is used, a kitten dies. Think about the kittens fellas.

Then think about why it’s better to lose in rounds 1-3 than it is to lose in the finals.

Now we know you have a Jordan bias, because only people with a Jordan bias would use that argument. Just focus on other arguments, because using that argument over and over only shows that bias.

[DB23]

Jordan never made it past the first round of the playoffs without Pippen...

Let’s put these players in order…

Scottie pippen -3*joint
Anthony Davis -1
Dwayne wade 2
Chris bosh -4
Kyrie irving -3 *joint
Kevin love -5
Dennis Rodman -6
Toni kukoc -7

Lebron has played with so much more talent it’s crazy to use the pippen argument

Richard Hamilton?

Wouldn’t really consider the wizards years as serious. But either way, Gilmore, are not close to the top talent lebron played with. Would all rank after kukoc

[WillyJakkz]

Jordan never made it past the first round of the playoffs without Pippen...

And pippen did without Jordan . So Jordan needed pippen more than pippen needed Jordan

Lol. Context matters. Jordan was ages 21-23 and on one of the worst teams in the league when he played without Pippen. Pippen was on a Title contender with players like Horace Grant, Toni Kukoć, Ron Harper, and BJ Armstrong when Jordan retired for 2 seasons.

But taking your context argument and it also works against you as your "he was on one of the worst teams in the League" works in favor of LeBron who was on one of the absolute worst teams in the League and took them to the 2007 Finals at 23yrs old.

[DB23]

Every time the 6/6 finals argument is used, a kitten dies. Think about the kittens fellas.

Then think about why it’s better to lose in rounds 1-3 than it is to lose in the finals.

Now we know you have a Jordan bias, because only people with a Jordan bias would use that argument. Just focus on other arguments, because using that argument over and over only shows that bias.

There is no bigger stage than the NBA finals so it does mean something. Now Lebron has performed amazingly in some of those losses so you can’t just use how many losses, but some of the losses are inexcusable. Obviously Dallas matters, the biggest stage, the heavily favored team and just an awful performance. That matters.

[SelfishPlayer]

Let’s put these players in order…

Scottie pippen -3*joint
Anthony Davis -1
Dwayne wade 2
Chris bosh -4
Kyrie irving -3 *joint
Kevin love -5
Dennis Rodman -6
Toni kukoc -7

Lebron has played with so much more talent it’s crazy to use the pippen argument

Richard Hamilton?

Wouldn’t really consider the wizards years as serious. But either way, Gilmore, are not close to the top talent lebron played with. Would all rank after kukoc

Why wouldn't you consider Jordan's years with the Wizards serious? Jordan was the same age Lebron is now. Lebron just took the Lakers to the western conference finals beating Steph Curry. Jordan was just a selfish scorer with the Wizards who couldn't even get them to the playoffs!

[Hitachi77]

Every time the 6/6 finals argument is used, a kitten dies. Think about the kittens fellas.

Then think about why it’s better to lose in rounds 1-3 than it is to lose in the finals.

Now we know you have a Jordan bias, because only people with a Jordan bias would use that argument. Just focus on other arguments, because using that argument over and over only shows that bias.

There is no bigger stage than the NBA finals so it does mean something. Now Lebron has performed amazingly in some of those losses so you can’t just use how many losses, but some of the losses are inexcusable. Obviously Dallas matters, the biggest stage, the heavily favored team and just an awful performance. That matters.

Let’s go through the list:

2007: took an insane performance from LeBron to get to the finals, his team was overmatched in the finals

2011: I will give you this one of course, they lost to Dallas as a favorite.

2014: This one kind of a wash, they lost as a slight underdog.

2015: lost his 2nd and 3rd best players to injury, still took the Warriors to 6

2017-18: completely overmatched, KD Warriors

Jordan has won as a favorite every time, and lost as an underdog every time. LeBron has often won as an underdog, in many of those runs through the east, and a few times lost as a favorite.

That finals streak is an argument in Lebron’s favor, anyone saying anything otherwise is being silly or biased.

[Jcity08]

Honestly, opinions wont ever change at this point, nothing I've seen has changed my view that Jordan is goat, maybe a player will come along to change that but with respect to Lebron, he set a pretty high bar by himself, and that hasn't swayed me.

[zimpy27]

How many Jordan fans are reading through this thread and feeling great about the quality of data-driven arguments for Jordan as GOAT?

You can't possibly look around this thread and feel confident about your position. Not saying Jordan as GOAT is wrong but it would be cool to see some effort made in the reasoning department.

[Kawaii Leonard]

6/6

[sca]

6/6

I have absolutely no problem with anyone calling MJ the GOAT but this TERRIBLE ARGUMENT makes my blood boil! It assumes that losing in the Conference Finals, 2nd round, 1st round or hell, missing the play-offs entirely is better than losing in the NBA Finals.

Jordan’s actual winning record is 6/13 (not including the Wizards years). From a winning standpoint, as an NBA player, you start every season with one single goal: winning the championship, and if you couldn’t, then you have failed, plain and simple.

Meanwhile Lebron’s winning record is 4/20, so it’s less impressive on paper than Jordan’s anyway, but comparing numbers while not adding any context is lame anyway.

[tsherkin]

that's because 70% of the members were born in the 90s

the point being, as such 70% of the members were not there to viscerally experience the mj-effect,,,which neither numbers nor videos can explain

You did read the thread title, yes?

yes but i'm responding to the observation of the poster i'm quoting (hilited in red)

They are related, though.

[zimpy27]

6/6

Ahh yes, Jordan played in only 6 NBA seasons and won a championship every year.