Is Kobe given the most flack of any star? Highlighting inconsistent arguments against him.

[RHODEY]

The star who receives the most 'flack' is LeBron without question. It borders on psychotic at times.

Kobe has also received a lot of criticism but, on balance, his reputation has probably always exceeded his impact. It's awfully difficult to make a coherent argument that he's a top 10 guy, whereas making that argument for LeBron is pretty easy.

Also RealGM is hardly a homogeneous group - we have insightful posters and **** posters often in equal measure. Asking for consistency among that group is simply asking too much.

Finally, your 40+ minute plus comparison only really proves that LeBron was better, particularly if you take a look at some of the more advanced figures from those games, such as the higher offensive rating for LeBron and the lower defensive rating.

Lebron gets the most 'flack" because he gets the most unwarranted praise. Team hoppin, media manipulation, and runnig from the big shot don't fool the masses.

IMO Kobe is as close to Jordan as anyone has gotten without being Jordan. He was alpha in pretty much all the same ways.

[flytimes11]

Only homers have Kobe over Bird or Magic.

Ridiculous.

Several current players have Kobe over bird and magic. All the podcasts that are out it actually seems common. Magic himself has Kobe as the greatest laker ever and they both only played for the lakers. Not saying that because they played they know better but it’s not as “Ridiculous” as you say.

I'm scared to even ask what podcasts you listen to, but I suspect you'll find they are FAR more inconsistent than the people on this board you're questioning.

. Naw because people here will point to finals mvps and mvps and championships to argue a player being better but then when that doesn’t work they use advanced stats to try and spin a narrative. This is seen with people trying to push the Kg>Kobe stuff. Then try and argue one season as a peak and say they are better than Kobe all time as if longevity doesn’t matter. Stats don’t always tell the whole story especially without context, it can be very misleading.

[Maxthirty]

The star who receives the most 'flack' is LeBron without question. It borders on psychotic at times.

Kobe has also received a lot of criticism but, on balance, his reputation has probably always exceeded his impact. It's awfully difficult to make a coherent argument that he's a top 10 guy, whereas making that argument for LeBron is pretty easy.

Also RealGM is hardly a homogeneous group - we have insightful posters and **** posters often in equal measure. Asking for consistency among that group is simply asking too much.

Finally, your 40+ minute plus comparison only really proves that LeBron was better, particularly if you take a look at some of the more advanced figures from those games, such as the higher offensive rating for LeBron and the lower defensive rating.

Lebron gets the most 'flack" because he gets the most unwarranted praise. Team hoppin, media manipulation, and runnig from the big shot don't fool the masses.

IMO Kobe is as close to Jordan as anyone has gotten without being Jordan. He was alpha in pretty much all the same ways.

Kobe wasn’t even the “alpha” on his own team for the majority of his championships.

[dhsilv2]

Several current players have Kobe over bird and magic. All the podcasts that are out it actually seems common. Magic himself has Kobe as the greatest laker ever and they both only played for the lakers. Not saying that because they played they know better but it’s not as “Ridiculous” as you say.

I'm scared to even ask what podcasts you listen to, but I suspect you'll find they are FAR more inconsistent than the people on this board you're questioning.

. Naw because people here will point to finals mvps and mvps and championships to argue a player being better but then when that doesn’t work they use advanced stats to try and spin a narrative. This is seen with people trying to push the Kg>Kobe stuff. Then try and argue one season as a peak and say they are better than Kobe all time as if longevity doesn’t matter. Stats don’t always tell the whole story especially without context, it can be very misleading.

Show me the posts and the context. If I say that Kobe was never the best player, I can show that with stats. Meanwhile I can show with stats that KG in 2004 was the best player. You aren't inconsistent if you look at multiple sources and are consistent with using them to help guide you.

[flytimes11]

I'm scared to even ask what podcasts you listen to, but I suspect you'll find they are FAR more inconsistent than the people on this board you're questioning.

. Naw because people here will point to finals mvps and mvps and championships to argue a player being better but then when that doesn’t work they use advanced stats to try and spin a narrative. This is seen with people trying to push the Kg>Kobe stuff. Then try and argue one season as a peak and say they are better than Kobe all time as if longevity doesn’t matter. Stats don’t always tell the whole story especially without context, it can be very misleading.

Show me the posts and the context. If I say that Kobe was never the best player, I can show that with stats. Meanwhile I can show with stats that KG in 2004 was the best player. You aren't inconsistent if you look at multiple sources and are consistent with using them to help guide you.

Not even the 81 season? 62 in 3 quarters? While I disagree, the Kobe never being the best player doesn’t bother me because If it wasn’t him it was Tim Duncan or Shaq or in later years bron, all guys who are regarded as top 10. Kg was never better than Duncan, not in 04, not ever IMO, he definitely had a better regular season but that one year doesn’t mean peak Garnett> peak Duncan. Is it possible that I can make a claim MVP Westbrook was better than LeBron that season? I don’t believe that though.

[WarriorGM]

I won't go through all of this, but a lot of this is just gibberish.

Curry vs Kobe - you bring up career points and what not. Kobe likely is ahead of Magic and Bird in most career stats, but ranked behind them. The reason? They are seen to have peaked higher, just like Curry is. If you rank Kobe ahead of those two but have Curry over Kobe, OK i'll give you that. But I haven't seen that happen.

The whole OP is just riddled with these things. Ask how someone ranks a player and then see if they are or are not consistent.

Curry was never the defender Kobe was. Offensively Kobe has had better scoring seasons, better driver of the ball, lethal mid range, gets to the line more regularly etc.

Curry has been on more top defensive teams than Kobe has. Curry peaked much higher and had better offensive seasons. In 2015 Curry led his team to a better record than any team of Kobe's without Shaq. Curry tied Kobe's highest PER that season, and had a higher BPM, higher win shares, higher win shares/48 than any season in Kobe's career. Curry also led the league in plus-minus that year; please correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Kobe ever did. 2015 let us remember was Curry's weaker MVP season.

Curry is a much more efficient scorer—and it isn't close. Curry's average true shooting percentage for his career (.627) is higher than Kobe's highest for a single season (.580). That's why while it took league leading usage for Kobe to get one of his scoring titles Curry was sitting out more than a few 4th quarters for one of his.

Curry's three point shooting changed the way the game is played.

[flytimes11]

I won't go through all of this, but a lot of this is just gibberish.

Curry vs Kobe - you bring up career points and what not. Kobe likely is ahead of Magic and Bird in most career stats, but ranked behind them. The reason? They are seen to have peaked higher, just like Curry is. If you rank Kobe ahead of those two but have Curry over Kobe, OK i'll give you that. But I haven't seen that happen.

The whole OP is just riddled with these things. Ask how someone ranks a player and then see if they are or are not consistent.

Curry was never the defender Kobe was. Offensively Kobe has had better scoring seasons, better driver of the ball, lethal mid range, gets to the line more regularly etc.

Curry has been on more top defensive teams than Kobe has. Curry peaked much higher and had better offensive seasons. In 2015 Curry led his team to a better record than any team of Kobe's without Shaq. Curry also tied Kobe's highest PER that season, and had a higher BPM, higher win shares, higher win shares/48 than any season in Kobe's career. 2015 let us remember was Curry's weaker MVP season.

Curry is a much more efficient scorer—and it isn't close. Curry's average true shooting percentage for his career (.627) is higher than Kobe's highest for a single season (.580). That's why while it took league leading usage for Kobe to get one of his scoring titles Curry was sitting out 4th quarters for one of his.

Curry's three point shooting changed the way the game is played.

I was speaking on defense from an individual standpoint. Those teams that had bogut, klay, draymond etc. all great defenders.

Despite Kobe being less efficient he has enjoyed just as much success as curry and led a team to back 2 back chips.
Curry had the chance to do this in 2016.

Lastly the splash brothers together changed the way the game was played. Klay Thompson was just as deadly from 3.

[dhsilv2]

. Naw because people here will point to finals mvps and mvps and championships to argue a player being better but then when that doesn’t work they use advanced stats to try and spin a narrative. This is seen with people trying to push the Kg>Kobe stuff. Then try and argue one season as a peak and say they are better than Kobe all time as if longevity doesn’t matter. Stats don’t always tell the whole story especially without context, it can be very misleading.

Show me the posts and the context. If I say that Kobe was never the best player, I can show that with stats. Meanwhile I can show with stats that KG in 2004 was the best player. You aren't inconsistent if you look at multiple sources and are consistent with using them to help guide you.

Not even the 81 season? 62 in 3 quarters? While I disagree, the Kobe never being the best player doesn’t bother me because If it wasn’t him it was Tim Duncan or Shaq or in later years bron, all guys who are regarded as top 10. Kg was never better than Duncan, not in 04, not ever IMO, he definitely had a better regular season but that one year doesn’t mean peak Garnett> peak Duncan.

No, I never considered 06 Kobe as the best player. That year there's a much better case for Dirk if you want to go there. If you're a playoff guy, Wade was better, and perhaps better than Kobe ever was that year. Kobe was incredible in that he had a 10 year run where you could argue he was in the top 5 every single year, but I wouldn't rank his peak very high all time. He was just consistently great without ever being "all time great". It's why Kobe is possibly the most challenging player ever to rank. You're just not supposed to be that good for that long and yet never have the highest of high peaks.

Just for context here's his year by year VORP and rank.

1999-00 NBA 4.5 (13th)
2000-01 NBA 4.7 (18th)
2001-02 NBA 5.2 (9th)
2002-03 NBA 7.7 (3rd)
2003-04 NBA 4.7 (7th)
2004-05 NBA 4.7 (15th)
2005-06 NBA 8.0 (2nd)
2006-07 NBA 6.1 (4th)
2007-08 NBA 6.3 (3rd)
2008-09 NBA 5.9 (5th)
2009-10 NBA 4.4 (10th)
2010-11 NBA 5.0 (8th)
2011-12 NBA 2.9 (20th)
2012-13 NBA 5.0 (7th)

Here is KG's

1997-98 NBA 5.0 (8th)
1998-99 NBA 3.3 (9th)
1999-00 NBA 6.8 (4th)
2000-01 NBA 6.4 (4th)
2001-02 NBA 7.1 (2nd)
2002-03 NBA 8.7 (2nd)
2003-04 NBA 10.0 (1st)
2004-05 NBA 9.1 (1st)
2005-06 NBA 7.4 (4th)
2006-07 NBA 5.5 (5th)
2007-08 NBA 6.0 (7th)
2010-11 NBA 3.8 (15th)
2011-12 NBA 2.9 (19th)

Here is Duncan's

1997-98 NBA 5.3 (7th)
1998-99 NBA 3.2 (10th)
1999-00 NBA 5.5 (7th)
2000-01 NBA 5.4 (11th)
2001-02 NBA 8.0 (1st)
2002-03 NBA 7.7 (4th)
2003-04 NBA 6.7 (3rd)
2004-05 NBA 5.4 (6th)
2005-06 NBA 4.9 (18th)
2006-07 NBA 6.2 (3rd)
2007-08 NBA 4.8 (10th)
2008-09 NBA 4.7 (8th)
2009-10 NBA 5.0 (5th)
2010-11 NBA 3.5 (20th)
2012-13 NBA 3.8 (15th)
2014-15 NBA 4.0 (15th)

Now I don't really give a damn if you do or don't like VORP. It's just a quick and dirty way to show in a non biased way, why people disagree with you and can be CONSISTENT in their views. We have data to show that all 3 of these guys were consistent top 5 guys by this metric, but we see KG and Duncan both finishing first with Kobe peaking at 3rd. So we can also based on this start to build the case back for better peaks as I already addressed.

Now this is obviously just a very high level, starting point for any argument about these 3 players.

Oh speaking of Curry.

2012-13 NBA 5.6 (5th)
2013-14 NBA 6.7 (4th)
2014-15 NBA 7.9 (2nd)
2015-16 NBA 9.5 (1st)
2016-17 NBA 5.9 (7th)
2017-18 NBA 4.0 (17th)
2018-19 NBA 5.1 (11th)
2020-21 NBA 5.8 (2nd)
2021-22 NBA 4.4 (11th)
2022-23 NBA 4.7 (11th)

Again, higher peaks. So we're once again back to consistency.

[DAWill1128]

Kobe is one of the most accomplished basketball players of all time. I would not hold Shaq being on his team against him. Nobody discredits Kareems titles when Magic was the better player during at the very least 2 of them.

4th All-Time in Points Scored
3rd All-Time in All-Star Appearances
2nd (Tied) All-Time in All-NBA Team Selections
2nd (Tied) All-Time in All-NBA 1st Teams
2nd (Tied) All-Time in All-Defensive Selections
1st (Tied) All-Time in All-Defensive 1st Teams
4th All-Time in Total Number of Awards

Career highlights and awards

5× NBA champion (2000–2002, 2009, 2010)
2× NBA Finals MVP (2009, 2010)
NBA Most Valuable Player (2008)
18× NBA All-Star (1998, 2000–2016)
4× NBA All-Star Game MVP (2002, 2007, 2009, 2011)
11× All-NBA First Team (2002–2004, 2006–2013)
2× All-NBA Second Team (2000, 2001)
2× All-NBA Third Team (1999, 2005)
9× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2000, 2003, 2004, 2006–2011)
3× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2001, 2002, 2012)
2× NBA scoring champion (2006, 2007)
NBA Slam Dunk Contest champion (1997)
NBA All-Rookie Second Team (1997)

[One Last Shot]

LeBron plays a very boring style of basketball, while Kobe is the most entertaining player of the 21st century.
They really are like night and day.

What does Lebron have to do with anything?

The OP talked about LeBron a lot in the first post, and LeBron is a big reason why Kobe is glossed over. In fact, LeBron is probably the only reason why.

How do you even know that Kobe is the most entertaining player of the 21st century? Did your wife also have 500 dvds of Kobe games like MJ? Or because you watch some highlights on youtube? I think ur just a toddler when Kobe played in 2004 NBA Finals, u mention ur just 20. No, LeBron is not the only reason why. If LeBron didn't exist MJ, KAJ, Magic, Wilt, Russell, Bird, Duncan and Shaq are all still better than him. He's not even the the best player of his team in 3 of his 5 NBA Titles. He once won a ring averaging 15.6 ppg, 41.4 TS% but since you don't acknowledge, believe or understand True Shooting Percentage and you prefer raw shooting %, Kobe shot 36.7/20./90.9% in 2000 NBA Finals. That's one of his ring, the biggest argument of his diehard fans against LeBron and some of his idiot fans even say that it's just my opinion that Shaq was better than Kobe. They played in 4 NBA Finals together and the only time they lose was when Kobe take way more shots than Shaq being selfish, acting like a baby, and literally shoot the Lakers out of another NBA Title. Since ur just a kid that time, here's what happened in that 2004 Pistons series.

Watch on YouTube

[WarriorGM]

Curry was never the defender Kobe was. Offensively Kobe has had better scoring seasons, better driver of the ball, lethal mid range, gets to the line more regularly etc.

Curry has been on more top defensive teams than Kobe has. Curry peaked much higher and had better offensive seasons. In 2015 Curry led his team to a better record than any team of Kobe's without Shaq. Curry also tied Kobe's highest PER that season, and had a higher BPM, higher win shares, higher win shares/48 than any season in Kobe's career. 2015 let us remember was Curry's weaker MVP season.

Curry is a much more efficient scorer—and it isn't close. Curry's average true shooting percentage for his career (.627) is higher than Kobe's highest for a single season (.580). That's why while it took league leading usage for Kobe to get one of his scoring titles Curry was sitting out 4th quarters for one of his.

Curry's three point shooting changed the way the game is played.

I was speaking on defense from an individual standpoint. Those teams that had bogut, klay, draymond etc. all great defenders.

Despite Kobe being less efficient he has enjoyed just as much success as curry and led a team to back 2 back chips.
Curry had the chance to do this in 2016.

Lastly the splash brothers together changed the way the game was played. Klay Thompson was just as deadly from 3.

Curry's superior offense allows for superior defense. Moreover the commonly available defensive metrics don't show much of an advantage for Kobe defensively if at all. DBPM for Curry's top 3 seasons are 1.7, 1.6 and 1.1 while Kobe's are 1.6, 0.7, and 0.6.

Curry's spread out championships show he can win with largely different rosters.

Klay when he is hot can get even hotter than Curry and that tends to obscure the fact that no even Klay isn't on Steph's level as a three-point shooter.

[cam24thomas]

What does Lebron have to do with anything?

The OP talked about LeBron a lot in the first post, and LeBron is a big reason why Kobe is glossed over. In fact, LeBron is probably the only reason why.

How do you even know that Kobe is the most entertaining player of the 21st century? Did your wife also have 500 dvds of Kobe games like MJ? Or because you watch some highlights on youtube? I think ur just a toddler when Kobe played in 2004 NBA Finals, u mention ur just 20. No, LeBron is not the only reason why. If LeBron didn't exist MJ, KAJ, Magic, Wilt, Russell, Bird, Duncan and Shaq are all still better than him. He's not even the the best player of his team in 3 of his 5 NBA Titles.

Why wouldn't I watch Kobe? I've got hundreds of MJ dvds, so its perfectly normal for me to watch Kobe too. Nothing wrong with me watching Kobe on youtube....

LeBron is the reason why Kobe is glossed over (as in Kobe is glossed over RIGHT NOW), because LeBron is the only 21st century non-big-man that people praise more than Kobe.

MJ and Magic and Bird have nothing to do with this, because they weren't getting much media attention in the 21st century, because they retired in the 20th century (except for MJ's stint with the Wizards).

Your statement of "If LeBron didn't exist MJ, KAJ, Magic, Wilt, Russell, Bird, Duncan and Shaq are all still better than him" is very strange, since I never said anything about Kobe being the best player ever.

All I said was "LeBron plays a very boring style of basketball, while Kobe is the most entertaining player of the 21st century.
They really are like night and day".
So all I'm talking about is entertainment, not greatness or achievements or all-time rankings.

[spidythejoe]

I think James Harden gets probably wins this title. Don't get me wrong, he has done a ton to court criticism. But his level of offensive dominance over a decade its deeply underappreciated. Kobe gets some unfair flack, but he probably the most revered players of his generation among players. He doesn't needs nearly as much protection as the great nation of Kobestan feels he entitled to.

[flytimes11]

Show me the posts and the context. If I say that Kobe was never the best player, I can show that with stats. Meanwhile I can show with stats that KG in 2004 was the best player. You aren't inconsistent if you look at multiple sources and are consistent with using them to help guide you.

Not even the 81 season? 62 in 3 quarters? While I disagree, the Kobe never being the best player doesn’t bother me because If it wasn’t him it was Tim Duncan or Shaq or in later years bron, all guys who are regarded as top 10. Kg was never better than Duncan, not in 04, not ever IMO, he definitely had a better regular season but that one year doesn’t mean peak Garnett> peak Duncan.

No, I never considered 06 Kobe as the best player. That year there's a much better case for Dirk if you want to go there. If you're a playoff guy, Wade was better, and perhaps better than Kobe ever was that year. Kobe was incredible in that he had a 10 year run where you could argue he was in the top 5 every single year, but I wouldn't rank his peak very high all time. He was just consistently great without ever being "all time great". It's why Kobe is possibly the most challenging player ever to rank. You're just not supposed to be that good for that long and yet never have the highest of high peaks.

Just for context here's his year by year VORP and rank.

1999-00 NBA 4.5 (13th)
2000-01 NBA 4.7 (18th)
2001-02 NBA 5.2 (9th)
2002-03 NBA 7.7 (3rd)
2003-04 NBA 4.7 (7th)
2004-05 NBA 4.7 (15th)
2005-06 NBA 8.0 (2nd)
2006-07 NBA 6.1 (4th)
2007-08 NBA 6.3 (3rd)
2008-09 NBA 5.9 (5th)
2009-10 NBA 4.4 (10th)
2010-11 NBA 5.0 (8th)
2011-12 NBA 2.9 (20th)
2012-13 NBA 5.0 (7th)

Here is KG's

1997-98 NBA 5.0 (8th)
1998-99 NBA 3.3 (9th)
1999-00 NBA 6.8 (4th)
2000-01 NBA 6.4 (4th)
2001-02 NBA 7.1 (2nd)
2002-03 NBA 8.7 (2nd)
2003-04 NBA 10.0 (1st)
2004-05 NBA 9.1 (1st)
2005-06 NBA 7.4 (4th)
2006-07 NBA 5.5 (5th)
2007-08 NBA 6.0 (7th)
2010-11 NBA 3.8 (15th)
2011-12 NBA 2.9 (19th)

Here is Duncan's

1997-98 NBA 5.3 (7th)
1998-99 NBA 3.2 (10th)
1999-00 NBA 5.5 (7th)
2000-01 NBA 5.4 (11th)
2001-02 NBA 8.0 (1st)
2002-03 NBA 7.7 (4th)
2003-04 NBA 6.7 (3rd)
2004-05 NBA 5.4 (6th)
2005-06 NBA 4.9 (18th)
2006-07 NBA 6.2 (3rd)
2007-08 NBA 4.8 (10th)
2008-09 NBA 4.7 (8th)
2009-10 NBA 5.0 (5th)
2010-11 NBA 3.5 (20th)
2012-13 NBA 3.8 (15th)
2014-15 NBA 4.0 (15th)

Now I don't really give a damn if you do or don't like VORP. It's just a quick and dirty way to show in a non biased way, why people disagree with you and can be CONSISTENT in their views. We have data to show that all 3 of these guys were consistent top 5 guys by this metric, but we see KG and Duncan both finishing first with Kobe peaking at 3rd. So we can also based on this start to build the case back for better peaks as I already addressed.

Now this is obviously just a very high level, starting point for any argument about these 3 players.

Oh speaking of Curry.

2012-13 NBA 5.6 (5th)
2013-14 NBA 6.7 (4th)
2014-15 NBA 7.9 (2nd)
2015-16 NBA 9.5 (1st)
2016-17 NBA 5.9 (7th)
2017-18 NBA 4.0 (17th)
2018-19 NBA 5.1 (11th)
2020-21 NBA 5.8 (2nd)
2021-22 NBA 4.4 (11th)
2022-23 NBA 4.7 (11th)

Again, higher peaks. So we're once again back to consistency.

I get what you are saying and I appreciate the enlightenment, however this doesn’t move me as much. I’m sure someone like CP3 or Harden or Stockton has a high Vorp, but they were never able to win as a number one option. Historically you need a top player to win a championship. Kobe was 10th in Vorp in 2010 but lead the lakers to repeat that year. This also doesn’t account for intangibles. I’m not one to mamaba mentality blah blah but there is a reason players like harden consistently fall short and it’s no coincidence that Kobe is among the top winners of all time.

In regards to the Dirk and Wade take, it just seems like cherrypicking seasons of other players to say they were better than Kobe. Lebron was still better than Westbrook and Harden the years they won MVP even though they had better stats.

[LarsV8]

No, Kobe is babied for the most part.

The perceived flack is due to the number of die hards that try to push his standard above its appropriate place, and the corresponding push back received.

[Franco]

Many call 17-18 warriors greatest ever but it was a team that included Kobe that holds the greatest playoff record ever.

I haven't read the whole thread, but this is flat-out wrong, and it's kinda puzzling how you even said that when the 16-17 Warriors went 16-1 in the playoffs to break Kobe and Shaq's record.

[Edrees]

Many call 17-18 warriors greatest ever but it was a team that included Kobe that holds the greatest playoff record ever.

I haven't read the whole thread, but this is flat-out wrong, and it's kinda puzzling how you even said that when the 16-17 Warriors went 16-1 in the playoffs to break Kobe and Shaq's record.

It's the same record. The playoffs just had more games now than they did back then. Both teams had 1 loss.

That would be like if the NBA extends the season to 90 games and saying teams are breaking the Warriors 73 win record. It's not the same thing.

[flytimes11]

What does Lebron have to do with anything?

The OP talked about LeBron a lot in the first post, and LeBron is a big reason why Kobe is glossed over. In fact, LeBron is probably the only reason why.

How do you even know that Kobe is the most entertaining player of the 21st century? Did your wife also have 500 dvds of Kobe games like MJ? Or because you watch some highlights on youtube? I think ur just a toddler when Kobe played in 2004 NBA Finals, u mention ur just 20. No, LeBron is not the only reason why. If LeBron didn't exist MJ, KAJ, Magic, Wilt, Russell, Bird, Duncan and Shaq are all still better than him. He's not even the the best player of his team in 3 of his 5 NBA Titles. He once won a ring averaging 15.6 ppg, 41.4 TS% but since you don't acknowledge, believe or understand True Shooting Percentage and you prefer raw shooting %, Kobe shot 36.7/20./90.9% in 2000 NBA Finals. That's one of his ring, the biggest argument of his diehard fans against LeBron and some of his idiot fans even say that it's just my opinion that Shaq was better than Kobe. They played in 4 NBA Finals together and the only time they lose was when Kobe take way more shots than Shaq being selfish, acting like a baby, and literally shoot the Lakers out of another NBA Title. Since ur just a kid that time, here's what happened in that 2004 Pistons series.

Watch on YouTube

One last shot is proving my OP right.

[Franco]

Many call 17-18 warriors greatest ever but it was a team that included Kobe that holds the greatest playoff record ever.

I haven't read the whole thread, but this is flat-out wrong, and it's kinda puzzling how you even said that when the 16-17 Warriors went 16-1 in the playoffs to break Kobe and Shaq's record.

It's the same record. The playoffs just had more games now than they did back then. Both teams had 1 loss.

That would be like if the NBA extends the season to 90 games and saying teams are breaking the Warriors 73 win record. It's not the same thing.

It's breaking the record regardless, though, as the point isn't the 16 wins but the 16-1 record. It's a better winning % than 15-1.

[dhsilv2]

Not even the 81 season? 62 in 3 quarters? While I disagree, the Kobe never being the best player doesn’t bother me because If it wasn’t him it was Tim Duncan or Shaq or in later years bron, all guys who are regarded as top 10. Kg was never better than Duncan, not in 04, not ever IMO, he definitely had a better regular season but that one year doesn’t mean peak Garnett> peak Duncan.

No, I never considered 06 Kobe as the best player. That year there's a much better case for Dirk if you want to go there. If you're a playoff guy, Wade was better, and perhaps better than Kobe ever was that year. Kobe was incredible in that he had a 10 year run where you could argue he was in the top 5 every single year, but I wouldn't rank his peak very high all time. He was just consistently great without ever being "all time great". It's why Kobe is possibly the most challenging player ever to rank. You're just not supposed to be that good for that long and yet never have the highest of high peaks.

Just for context here's his year by year VORP and rank.

1999-00 NBA 4.5 (13th)
2000-01 NBA 4.7 (18th)
2001-02 NBA 5.2 (9th)
2002-03 NBA 7.7 (3rd)
2003-04 NBA 4.7 (7th)
2004-05 NBA 4.7 (15th)
2005-06 NBA 8.0 (2nd)
2006-07 NBA 6.1 (4th)
2007-08 NBA 6.3 (3rd)
2008-09 NBA 5.9 (5th)
2009-10 NBA 4.4 (10th)
2010-11 NBA 5.0 (8th)
2011-12 NBA 2.9 (20th)
2012-13 NBA 5.0 (7th)

Here is KG's

1997-98 NBA 5.0 (8th)
1998-99 NBA 3.3 (9th)
1999-00 NBA 6.8 (4th)
2000-01 NBA 6.4 (4th)
2001-02 NBA 7.1 (2nd)
2002-03 NBA 8.7 (2nd)
2003-04 NBA 10.0 (1st)
2004-05 NBA 9.1 (1st)
2005-06 NBA 7.4 (4th)
2006-07 NBA 5.5 (5th)
2007-08 NBA 6.0 (7th)
2010-11 NBA 3.8 (15th)
2011-12 NBA 2.9 (19th)

Here is Duncan's

1997-98 NBA 5.3 (7th)
1998-99 NBA 3.2 (10th)
1999-00 NBA 5.5 (7th)
2000-01 NBA 5.4 (11th)
2001-02 NBA 8.0 (1st)
2002-03 NBA 7.7 (4th)
2003-04 NBA 6.7 (3rd)
2004-05 NBA 5.4 (6th)
2005-06 NBA 4.9 (18th)
2006-07 NBA 6.2 (3rd)
2007-08 NBA 4.8 (10th)
2008-09 NBA 4.7 (8th)
2009-10 NBA 5.0 (5th)
2010-11 NBA 3.5 (20th)
2012-13 NBA 3.8 (15th)
2014-15 NBA 4.0 (15th)

Now I don't really give a damn if you do or don't like VORP. It's just a quick and dirty way to show in a non biased way, why people disagree with you and can be CONSISTENT in their views. We have data to show that all 3 of these guys were consistent top 5 guys by this metric, but we see KG and Duncan both finishing first with Kobe peaking at 3rd. So we can also based on this start to build the case back for better peaks as I already addressed.

Now this is obviously just a very high level, starting point for any argument about these 3 players.

Oh speaking of Curry.

2012-13 NBA 5.6 (5th)
2013-14 NBA 6.7 (4th)
2014-15 NBA 7.9 (2nd)
2015-16 NBA 9.5 (1st)
2016-17 NBA 5.9 (7th)
2017-18 NBA 4.0 (17th)
2018-19 NBA 5.1 (11th)
2020-21 NBA 5.8 (2nd)
2021-22 NBA 4.4 (11th)
2022-23 NBA 4.7 (11th)

Again, higher peaks. So we're once again back to consistency.

I get what you are saying and I appreciate the enlightenment, however this doesn’t move me as much. I’m sure someone like CP3 or Harden or Stockton has a high Vorp, but they were never able to win as a number one option. Historically you need a top player to win a championship. Kobe was 10th in Vorp in 2010 but lead the lakers to repeat that year. This also doesn’t account for intangibles. I’m not one to mamaba mentality blah blah but there is a reason players like harden consistently fall short and it’s no coincidence that Kobe is among the top winners of all time.

Did I ever offer up "first option" or "title" or "intangibles? See you're trying to shake me from a consistent argument, but you're trying to do so using tropes that many on this board do not use when evaluating players directly. That isn't to say that one can't "adjust" for a Duncan who's impact on culture is pretty well documented while perhaps leaving KG and Kobe without much adjustment despite KG having a bit of a rep as a tough teammates and Kobe having his obvious personal issues around 2004 that hurt the team and the famous breakup with Shaq. But those would be TINY adjustments only used when it was hard to decide.

Now to Chris Paul, yes his VORP is insane.

2005-06 NBA 5.1 (16th)
2006-07 NBA 4.2 (18th)
2007-08 NBA 9.3 (2nd)
2008-09 NBA 9.9 (2nd)
2010-11 NBA 6.7 (3rd)
2011-12 NBA 6.1 (2nd)
2012-13 NBA 6.4 (3rd)
2013-14 NBA 5.8 (5th)
2014-15 NBA 7.2 (3rd)
2015-16 NBA 6.0 (7th)
2016-17 NBA 5.2 (12th)
2017-18 NBA 4.2 (14th)
2019-20 NBA 3.5 (10th)
2020-21 NBA 3.6 (16th)
2021-22 NBA 4.0 (13th)

No, he never had the best but that many top 2's and 3's is impressive. And you're be right to bring him up if I based all this on VORP. I also btw do rank CP3 pretty close to Kobe all time. That said you can't just take one metric and conclude anything. I simply offered VORP up to show consistency. Now lets use Ben Taylor (Elgee from this forum and Thinking Basketball Youtuber) and his CORP metric.

Here you'll see that Kobe imo seems to edge out CP3 in CORP but falls well short of KG and Duncan. Again, consistent with my evaluation as we layer in more metrics and stats to look at these players. Again, this isn't about agreement. You're questioning people's ability to be consistent.