Peak only - Kawhi vs Kobe

[JustBuzzin]

You can only win 1 ring in your peak season....you can't have two. That's not a peak...

Peak Kobe would cook Peak Kawhi.

Kawhi owned LeBron not Kobe.

Give me Kobe over Kawhi.

isn't lebron bigger stronger and bettter than kobe?

LeBron is better than both.

[Sixerscan]

Leonard's defense by 2017 wasn't remotely elite though. The spurs were famously not just worse defensively with Leonard on the floor, but astonishingly worse. Now, I think that's mostly noise, but to claim he was having big man level defensive impact that year simply isn't supported with any metrics or scouting work we've seen.

But ok if you're talking 2009 Kobe...which I can't see as being his peak, but ok. By then he played defense only in small batches in the 4ths. First 3peet Kobe however was an elite defender from start to finish. Young Kobe was a really strong on and off ball defender. His off ball defense really dropped off by 2005 or so.

Yeah I think everyone realizes that 2017 number was mostly three point variance, just like no one brings up as a serious argument that the 2002 Lakers had a better net rating (not just defense, overall) with Kobe off the court. The 2017 Spurs were one of the best (pick a number) regular season teams we’ve seen this century, any on/off stuff is picking nits. Their defensive rating with Kawhi on the court was still better than any team in the league but 2 (counting the Spurs so really just the Durant warriors).

It was mostly noise/luck for sure. Though you're a bit off. With Leonard on the floor they were like 5th (warriors, jazz, hawks, and heat were better) plus them. But even if you take LEBRON that year which is the "Luck adjusted, RAPM", Leonard's defense just grades out pretty good. His D-LEBRON is just below CP3's (who's a great guard defender). The point was just that we can't make a solid stats based case and I don't think anyone who's tried to break down his actual D that year has really argued he was much more than a solid wing. Again in the CP3, Butler tier...which is really good.

Looking at it again, nba.com had Kawhi at 105.1 and the Hawks at 105.2, but whatever, even with your numbers the point stats it was still a great defense with him on the court. Most of the guys with the best defensive ratings on the Spurs that year were the lower minutes guys so you can guess what happened there.

I went ahead and looked it up, accoring to B-R the 2002 Lakers had a 94.9 defensive rating with Kobe off the court and 103.8 with him on the court (8.9 worse). Are we supposed to conclude from that that he wasn't a very good defensive player? I wonder what his D-LEBRON was that year.

I have a lot of issues with the all in one defensive metrics and am dubious of anything that says they adjust for all variables (I don't know how anyone could do that unless you actually understand the rules of the defense) but we don't have to get into that here. I don't think I need to make a statistical argument for Kawhi being a much better defensive player at his peak I think that's pretty obvious, no disrespect to Kobe intended.

[Evenacus]

Firstly, the comparison is ungrateful like many others when comparing players between different eras. This era, where defense is basically not allowed, cannot be compared to the previous one where it was played, and quite vigorously. Secondly, load management is enough to remove any player from any kind of contention, and Kawhi is a poster boy for that, and as far as I remember, Kobe was never plagued with long term absences.
If I have to choose, offense wise, I would give the advantage to Kobe, defense wise advantage Kawhi.
Altogether, I would go Kobe, since he was available most of the time unlike Mr. "Load management".

[One_and_Done]

The only reason the vote is remotely close is because Kobe has lots of fans, and Kawhi is widely disliked. This isn't close tbh. It's easily Kawhi.

[Primedeion]

It's easily Kobe. Kawhi has never put together a complete season since becoming the clear-cut #1.

[1993Playoffs]

I lean Kawhi. Not a fan of Kobe’s shot selection.

[Wargreymon]

So obviously Kobe if we’re comparing entire careers. But peak? Gimme 2019 Kawhi all day everyday. What a 2 way force he was. I dont care that KD didn’t play and Klay got injured for 2 games. Beating Philly with Butler and Simmons before he had a mental breakdown. Then beating a 60 win Bucks team with MVP prime Giannis after going down 0-2? Yeah Kawhi peak was Everest for a year.

[Pacernation]

Is this another raptors circlejerk thread? It's Dirk and it ain't close.

[SerialChiller]

For single season peak as the thread asks its Kawhi and it's frankly ridiculous that this poll is even close haha

[Buckeye-NBAFan]

Probably Kobe. Looking at 2019 as peak Kawhi and 2009 as Kobes peak run. Kawhis got the efficiency advantage but In a league with overall more scoring/efficiency. Kobe has the edge in playmaking. Kawhi significantly better defensively, but even that run he was starting to slow down by the end of it (which makes it harder to answer what is 'peak Kawhi')

All the numbers say Kawhi was better in 2016 and 2017 than 2019, a year he limped through recovering from serious injury. Doubtful anyone would suggest Kawhi's peak was 2019 if Durant didn't get injured, as Toronto wouldn't have won.

And then Kawhi's offensive game got a lot better by 2021.

The problem is he never really had a true peak because what would have been his best years were ruining by injuries. But I'd still take 2021 and 2016-17 over 2019.

[One_and_Done]

Defensive metrics aren't very reliable.

[timO]

RS kobe

playoffs kawhi

so kawhi

[dhsilv2]

Yeah I think everyone realizes that 2017 number was mostly three point variance, just like no one brings up as a serious argument that the 2002 Lakers had a better net rating (not just defense, overall) with Kobe off the court. The 2017 Spurs were one of the best (pick a number) regular season teams we’ve seen this century, any on/off stuff is picking nits. Their defensive rating with Kawhi on the court was still better than any team in the league but 2 (counting the Spurs so really just the Durant warriors).

It was mostly noise/luck for sure. Though you're a bit off. With Leonard on the floor they were like 5th (warriors, jazz, hawks, and heat were better) plus them. But even if you take LEBRON that year which is the "Luck adjusted, RAPM", Leonard's defense just grades out pretty good. His D-LEBRON is just below CP3's (who's a great guard defender). The point was just that we can't make a solid stats based case and I don't think anyone who's tried to break down his actual D that year has really argued he was much more than a solid wing. Again in the CP3, Butler tier...which is really good.

Looking at it again, nba.com had Kawhi at 105.1 and the Hawks at 105.2, but whatever, even with your numbers the point stats it was still a great defense with him on the court. Most of the guys with the best defensive ratings on the Spurs that year were the lower minutes guys so you can guess what happened there.

I went ahead and looked it up, accoring to B-R the 2002 Lakers had a 94.9 defensive rating with Kobe off the court and 103.8 with him on the court (8.9 worse). Are we supposed to conclude from that that he wasn't a very good defensive player? I wonder what his D-LEBRON was that year.

I have a lot of issues with the all in one defensive metrics and am dubious of anything that says they adjust for all variables (I don't know how anyone could do that unless you actually understand the rules of the defense) but we don't have to get into that here. I don't think I need to make a statistical argument for Kawhi being a much better defensive player at his peak I think that's pretty obvious, no disrespect to Kobe intended.

Weird, basketball reference is in the 106's for both. That's actually a pretty big difference. Do you have link? Sorry I just struggle navigating over on NBA.com. I believe you mind you.

At Leonard's best defensively, it's a no contest. But Leonard was simply not the defender in 2017 or 2019 that he was in his DPOY seasons. He just wasn't as focused which is fine given he took on more of a role on offense.

LEBRON - it addresses luck in exactly the context you brought up. 3 point shooting variance. It doesn't account for anything else in that "luck" adjustment.

As for Kobe, I did just go back and looked at his RAPM data and you're right. Not nearly as good as my memory of him would have lead me to believe. I'll stand corrected, Kobe's defense even at his best wasn't as impactful as my memory thought.

[STAT_88]

Kawhi.


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[SashimiLover]

While Kobe may be a more prolific and versatile scorer, a healthy Kawhi in his prime is arguably a more complete two-way player capable of punishing the opponents at any time on both sides.

I lean toward saying prime/peak Kawhi has a slight edge.

[One_and_Done]

I don't even think it's that slight.

[socal74]

The only reason the vote is remotely close is because Kobe has lots of fans, and Kawhi is widely disliked. This isn't close tbh. It's easily Kawhi.

You can keep repeating this non sense like its a fact. I can really tell you never watched Kobe in his prime and are only looking at the stats which is complete BS.

[Lakerland247]

Another thing to note is penalising a guy for a random cheap shot in the WCFs is rewarding a guy who never made it that far to begin with. If 2006 Kobe made the WCFs maybe he'd get cheap shot too, we'll just never know because he didn't make it that far.

Didn't you post this already on the 3rd page? Can you post it 3 more times?

I'm taking Peak KOBE. Kobe doesn't load manage.

[One_and_Done]

Another thing to note is penalising a guy for a random cheap shot in the WCFs is rewarding a guy who never made it that far to begin with. If 2006 Kobe made the WCFs maybe he'd get cheap shot too, we'll just never know because he didn't make it that far.

Didn't you post this already on the 3rd page? Can you post it 3 more times?

I'm taking Peak KOBE. Kobe doesn't load manage.

Kobe would likely break down today, the opposing offense would stress test him until he couldn't even move on O.

[PDXKnight]

Kobe is slightly higher for me. Feels like he had more of that killer instinct