Jokic is not the best in the world, and has been heavily overrated (NOW YOU CAN CHANGE VOTES)

[Special_Puppy]

I'm not sure if this is a troll, but

Jokic is a guy that needs a superstar like Murray to make his game work.

How many superstars are there in the NBA? 50

He's an incredible system player, but he lacks competitive fire and toughness to be an ATG player.

I'm a huge Duncan fan. I really don't see any evidence that Jokic has less competitive fire or toughness than Duncan did. And I'm certain his mean streak is much worse.

It'll make the Rose and Nash wins seem unanimous

There is no world in which Derrick Rose's MVP ages better than Jokic's MVPs. Rose won an MVP on a team that won through defense and he wasn't even the driver of that defense.

The system is constant motion with elite athletes and finishers, where Jokic just has to pass the ball for them to complete the play.

Why don't more teams run this "system" if it is so easy to work?

At least Rose was the number 1 seed, regardless of what drove that record. Jokic drove his team to the....6th seed? LOL

Jokic was clearly the best and most valuable player that season lol. Winning 48 games with Will Barton, Monte Morris, and Jeff Green in the starting lineup is super impressive. That team might have won 25 games without Jokic. Jokic is having a mediocre series. Criticize him for that instead!

[Ein Sof]

Jokic fans will never understand it's not about the statz or accolades. That sh*t doesn't matter.
It's about his playstyle being awkward, annoying garbage. This is fine if you're a Nuggets fan, or trolling, but it's awkward and annoying for everyone else.

[Kingdibs19]

Does RealGM still think he’s better than peak Lebron?

[DimesandKnicks]

Jokic plays in the much more competitive era than MJ, for example. It's much harder to dominate because there's a huge increase in the talent pool of elite and very good international players, that didn't exist back in MJ's time. Plus, the pool of American talent hasn't gone anywhere.

Imagine replacing the trash international players that Jordan had to compete against, with: Giannis, Jokic, Luka, Shai, Embiid, Siakam, Gobert, OG, Brooks, Murray, Markkanen, Porzingis, Sengun, Bogi, etc..., while keeping the American competition (Bird, Hakeem, Malone, Ewing, Barkley, etc....) the same.

MJ would win a hell of a lot less consistently (like every other star today).

Parity is the side effect of today's increase in talent pool. It's pretty straightforward math & logic.

He also plays in an era where there isn’t much top end talent at the C position; conversely, outside of Gobert his run to the finals was independent of any physical/ strong big men or C’s he really had to guard defensively. Imagine Jokic going up against Robinson, Duncan, Ewing, Shaq, Hakeem, Mourning, Mutombo, Smits.

[76Shots]

The conversation of him being in the tier of Lebron/Jordan/Bird/Duncan needs to end. There was no "bad match ups" for those guys that made them look this bad. When you are a generational player your talent supersedes any match up.

Like Lebron when he lost in the finals against Dallas or how Jordan hadn't won anything until Phil and Pippen showed up or how the 8th seed Grizzlies beat Duncan's 1st seed Spurs?

The difference is once those guys started winning they were completely dominant, Jokic is getting shut down by KAT and Naz Reid, and a complete pylon on defense.

As opposed to Lebron getting shut down by JJ Barea.

[Shock Defeat]

I would take a healthy Embiid (who doesn't really exist btw) over Jokic. Embiid brings defense, and more reliable scoring.

[Special_Puppy]

Jokic fans will never understand it's not about the statz or accolades. That sh*t doesn't matter.
It's about his playstyle being awkward, annoying garbage. This is fine if you're a Nuggets fan, or trolling, but it's awkward and annoying for everyone else.

Can you elaborate? What's awkward and annoying about his playstyle?

[hardenASG13]

Jokic fans will never understand it's not about the statz or accolades. That sh*t doesn't matter.
It's about his playstyle being awkward, annoying garbage. This is fine if you're a Nuggets fan, or trolling, but it's awkward and annoying for everyone else.

Can you elaborate? What's awkward and annoying about his playstyle?

The way he bows out his elbows on all of his dribble handoffs. He way he hammers his arms into guys when he drives or spins. The way he passes up shots and defers sometimes to inflate his assists and efficiency. His lack of energy, emotion, and leadership. His inability to even jump when he's the last guy there to contest at the rim. It worked for one postseason against weak comp. Doesn't look to be this year. He's gotta bring alot more than this for some of the accolades and comparisons that have been dumped on him. With all those, there comes heavy scrutiny and criticism, and it's rightfully deserved right now. I've never seen him beat a team in a series I've considered a legit title threat.

[rocarlos24]

Very rarely a player has the most talent and the most competitive fire…

The only 2 players that in my lifetime I’ve seen it was MJ and Kobe,

Bron never was a “Killer” while superior at all aspects of the game he never had the fire.. Ant could be next,

So to the original question Jokic is extremely talented at everything definitely deserves all his recognition, however he’s not a dog… never has been
It’s not a knock on him just reality.

Like Brunson is the most untalented superstar we’ve seen in a while, what separates him is his heart and will.. you cannot underestimate those characteristics in playoff basketball. Is Brunson better than Jokic hell no! But if I was down 3pts I want Brunson over Jokic.. idk

[Ambrose]

Let's be honest, if you think Embiid is better than Jokic, your opinion doesn't hold much weight.

[KyRo23]

Listen… I’m not gonna act like I’m not enjoying these threads a little bit because of the overreactions by some people on the other side. BUT this is also an overreaction. He’s the best player in my opinion and I wouldn’t be surprised if he dominated next game for a Nuggets win

[Special_Puppy]

Jokic fans will never understand it's not about the statz or accolades. That sh*t doesn't matter.
It's about his playstyle being awkward, annoying garbage. This is fine if you're a Nuggets fan, or trolling, but it's awkward and annoying for everyone else.

Can you elaborate? What's awkward and annoying about his playstyle?

The way he bows out his elbows on all of his dribble handoffs. He way he hammers his arms into guys when he drives or spins. The way he passes up shots and defers sometimes to inflate his assists and efficiency. His lack of energy, emotion, and leadership. His inability to even jump when he's the last guy there to contest at the rim. It worked for one postseason against weak comp. Doesn't look to be this year. He's gotta bring alot more than this for some of the accolades and comparisons that have been dumped on him. With all those, there comes heavy scrutiny and criticism, and it's rightfully deserved right now. I've never seen him beat a team in a series I've considered a legit title threat.

You didn't consider the 2020 Clippers a legit title threat?

[V]

Jokic a system player?

What exactly is the system he’s playing in?

The system is constant motion with elite athletes and finishers, where Jokic just has to pass the ball for them to complete the play. The system where Murray can bring the ball up and initiate the offense and close the game, and where he has to give you 25 to win. The system where he doesn't have to play defense because guys on the outside lock down driving lanes, or funnel guys baseline for traps.

Bro wut?!?

He IS THE SYSTEM. Simply put. Just like how Shaq was THE SYSTEM. What a troll thread. Thanks for your contribution.

[sp6r=underrated]

Jokic fans will never understand it's not about the statz or accolades. That sh*t doesn't matter.
It's about his playstyle being awkward, annoying garbage. This is fine if you're a Nuggets fan, or trolling, but it's awkward and annoying for everyone else.

This is honest. A lot of people become basketball fans because they love fast twitch athleticism (dunks, jumps and speed). Jokic doesn't give you that. But his passing game being awkward and annoying is so odd to me. It is incredibly innovative.

[sp6r=underrated]

. He way he hammers his arms into guys when he drives or spins.

You have Harden in your name,

[sp6r=underrated]

To me he is the third best player in the NBA - Luka and Embiid are comfortably ahead of him.

Teammates Embiid has played with:

25 All-Star selections
14 All-NBA selections
1 MVP

Titles: 0
ECF appearances: 0

Teammates Jokic has played with:

0 All-Star appearances
0 All-NBA selections
0 MVPs

Titles: 1
WCF appearances: 2

This is both true and hilarious.

[stormi]

As soon as his name started getting mentioned alongside Lebron's all time, then he way crossed the border into the territory of being overrated.

He's just not that caliber of player and unfortunately has built a legacy on the foundation of distorted advanced statistics (that are being exposed before our very eyes) and the repercussion is that it will debar guys like Luka from ever having a comparable case to win the major awards.

The fact that these numbers can reflect that Jokic is anything but a bad defender is enough evidence that it's merits are unreliable. He's getting attacked and targeted out there, and this isn't the first series that we've seen this happen.

[Johnny Firpo]

I see the balancing out of creating jokic is the best player since Jordan threads during the lakers series. I ain't mad at you OP.

Yeah, except the two threads are nowhere near remotely similar in their ridiculousness. Joker will be a 3-time MVP this week, who had a dominant playoff run last year, going up against an NBA record of all-defense and all-NBA players during the run, while dominating all kinds of stats within a 3 year period. So while if you don't think that he is the best player since MJ is an okay opinion to have, that question is nowhere near as bad as this thread. And if you think it is the same, you obviously don't like the guy.

It's just clear in watching him that he isn't, and never has been on the level of prime MJ/Lebron/Shaq. There really isn't anything more to say. He just lacks in so many areas (leadership, defense, endurance, Signature series wins) to be included in such discussions. Stats are out of control these days, comparing them across generations isn't fair. I think his abilities as a passer have been greatly over rated, as his assist numbers are correlated with guys continually cutting off him for DHOs. Not to say he isn't a great passer. But he's not aggressively breaking down a defense or attacking quickly enough to control the defense and get good shots for his teammates.

He's obviously a very good player, but his best playoff series win was vs. the bubble clippers, a group that has accomplished nothing. If they end up losing to Minnesota, the ridiculousness in many of the threads created about him this season, based on last year's easy run, will be at comical levels. People here have a set a really, really high bar for him based on beating 4 mediocre teams.

Sorry, but first of all, that's a lot on nonsense. For example, Jokic is doing extremely well even if you adjust to league averages, so that "NoT in The CuRreNt ErA" "argument" goes out of the window instantly. Second, the run was historic, he went against a record number of all defense and all-nba players. Third, while his team is a good fit, the level of talent and depth of his team is nowhere near to what MJ, Shaq or LeBron had to work with. Can you deny that? Jokic is up there with anybody not named MJ, and even if you feel he is not as good as Shaq or LeBron, suggesting that he is levels below them can only have explanation, you just don't like the guy.

[Johnny Firpo]

As soon as his name started getting mentioned alongside Lebron's all time, then he way crossed the border into the territory of being overrated.

He's just not that caliber of player and unfortunately has built a legacy on the foundation of distorted advanced statistics (that are being exposed before our very eyes) and the repercussion is that it will debar guys like Luka from ever having a comparable case to win the major awards.

The fact that these numbers can reflect that Jokic is anything but a bad defender is enough evidence that it's merits are unreliable. He's getting attacked and targeted out there, and this isn't the first series that we've seen this happen.

It's sad to see that fellow Mavs fans are this butthurt about the MVP. Jokic is just a better player, as of now. I don't really understand why this is so hard for you to admit.

[AleksandarN]

Like I said in the other thread

Jokic is a top 20 player of all time but it is not an overreaction to call out his play this series. He is not playing like “him” this series. No excuses for Jokic’s play and attitude. The Nuggets assumes the identity of its leaders. This also doesn’t invalidate his accomplishments and his play. He is an all time great. I see a lot of people’s coming out with their agendas. Do I believe jokic will come out and dominate next game? Yes he is too talented not too. But it may not matter the Twolves are playing too good right now