Why did the Cavs waste young Lebron's career?

[tsherkin]

You push for action, sometimes it bites you.

If he didn't, then there would have been no chance of anything. They sucked to begin with; he pushed them to try. They sucked again. It was informative. He left, then he won. *shrug*

[Harry Palmer]

MJ’s Bulls weren’t going anywhere either. Until MJ missed basically an entire season, they got a high draft pick, and that got them Pippen. At which time MJ was suddenly inevitable.

[tsherkin]

MJ’s Bulls weren’t going anywhere either. Until MJ missed basically an entire season, they got a high draft pick, and that got them Pippen. At which time MJ was suddenly inevitable.

Exactly.

And they drafted Grant 10th overall, and they traded Polynice for Pippen that same draft.

The franchise came through.

They acquired Bill Cartwright for the 89 season in a move Jordan didn't like by trading Charles Oakley.

They traded for Craig Hodges.

They drafted BJ Armstrong. They drafted Toni Kukoc. They signed Scott Williams as a FA.

They drafted Will Purdue, whom they later turned into Dennis Rodman in a trade with the Spurs.

They signed Steve Kerr as a FA. They grabbed Luc Longley and a 2nd rounder for Stacy King.

They signed Ron Harper as a FA.

Like, Chicago hit... often. Great selection of roleplayers, good usage of the draft, kept cycling new talent around him which fit into Phil Jackson's vision and Tex Winters' offense. They REALLY hit on Scottie. Grant and BJ were both All-Stars during Jordan's year off. Etc, etc.

There's a large difference in what the team did for the player between MJ in Chicago and Lebron's first run in Cleveland.

[Niko23]

I think waste is a tough definition. Wagner was supposed to be the next AI and Carlos Boozer lied to a blind man. We also drafted Luke Jackson at 10 the next year and Iggy was selected one spot below....man could you imagine!

Z
Boozer
Lebron
Iggy
Wagner

I think you could have then easily packaged a Wagner/Boozer or Iggy to get you a legit second star. I think every franchise can play the what if card though

[Luv those Knicks]

Because they did not know better.

If Boozer had integrity, history would look a lot different.

You mean if Boozer had signed for less money? I don't blame boozer for that at all. I blame the Cavs. I don't know what was said in rooms, but you don't give a player the option to leave, offer them less money, and then get mad when he leaves. No. Just no. That was terrible player management.

Boozer probably wasn't even in the room. His agent was, and . . . his agent lied to get his client more money? Say it isn't so. I'm shocked. Shocked that an agent would lie for more money.

You're welcome to your opinion that there were no circumstances where the Cavs should have trusted Loozer, but no need for the second part. Loozer was in the room. He told everyone he could that he desperately wanted to get paid early and didn't care if it cost him money in the long-term. His agent was fully aware of what Loozer was asking and the implied promise he was making.

You can read all the gory details from Gordon Gund himself:

https://www.nba.com/cavaliers/news/gund_boozer_040714.html

I appreciate the letter, as I hadn't seen it.

I still think Gordon Gund has himself to blame. I think any anger at "loozer" is misplaced.

It was a bad decision to not pick up his option. It reminds me of the "My handshake is my bond" in Jerry Maguire. It's a mistake that I like to think, I would never have done, if I was in Gund's place and that I think, most owners wouldn't have done, even if the player suggested it.

That said, and while my overall viewpoint on this has not changed after reading that letter, I was obviously wrong when I said Carlos wasn't in the room.

[The4thHorseman]

Morway was trying to get me to trade for them [J.J. Hickson and a selection of other teammates of James], but I ain’t takin’ any of them f***ing guys up there. I said ‘you don’t understand son. Them guys playing with LeBron James look a whole lot better than what they really are.’

Larry Bird on refusing to trade for LeBron James’ teammates.

https://www.sportscasting.com/why-larry-bird-refused-trade-any-lebron-james-teammates/

[tsherkin]

I think waste is a tough definition.

If they missed on one or two things only during those 7 years, that'd be something, but they WERE consistently making the wrong moves and not picking up any of the diamonds in the rough at all... or they traded them before they could take advantage of what they had. Or left them unprotected in the expansion draft, etc. And that lines up with their pre-Lebron track record. The Cavs were bad in part because the franchise did not do a good job of acquiring even moderate levels of talent. Or got hosed in deals they did make.

[JonFromVA]

You mean if Boozer had signed for less money? I don't blame boozer for that at all. I blame the Cavs. I don't know what was said in rooms, but you don't give a player the option to leave, offer them less money, and then get mad when he leaves. No. Just no. That was terrible player management.

Boozer probably wasn't even in the room. His agent was, and . . . his agent lied to get his client more money? Say it isn't so. I'm shocked. Shocked that an agent would lie for more money.

You're welcome to your opinion that there were no circumstances where the Cavs should have trusted Loozer, but no need for the second part. Loozer was in the room. He told everyone he could that he desperately wanted to get paid early and didn't care if it cost him money in the long-term. His agent was fully aware of what Loozer was asking and the implied promise he was making.

You can read all the gory details from Gordon Gund himself:

https://www.nba.com/cavaliers/news/gund_boozer_040714.html

I appreciate the letter, as I hadn't seen it.

I still think Gordon Gund has himself to blame. I think any anger at "loozer" is misplaced.

It was a bad decision to not pick up his option. It reminds me of the "My handshake is my bond" in Jerry Maguire. It's a mistake that I like to think, I would never have done, if I was in Gund's place and that I think, most owners wouldn't have done, even if the player suggested it.

That said, and while my overall viewpoint on this has not changed after reading that letter, I was obviously wrong when I said Carlos wasn't in the room.

Gordon Gund accepted all the blame, but it's not a mistake to trust someone. Loozer's betrayal only reflects on him and if it wasn't that it could have been something else. I imagine Gund felt a combination of disappointment and relief to find out what sort of character Loozer had before handing him who knows how many millions over the years.

[Vampirate]

I think waste is a tough definition.

If they missed on one or two things only during those 7 years, that'd be something, but they WERE consistently making the wrong moves and not picking up any of the diamonds in the rough at all... or they traded them before they could take advantage of what they had. Or left them unprotected in the expansion draft, etc. And that lines up with their pre-Lebron track record. The Cavs were bad in part because the franchise did not do a good job of acquiring even moderate levels of talent. Or got hosed in deals they did make.

Honestly it was the Lebron dilemma.

The Cavs were not a FA destination so that was out.

Prior to Lebron their assets weren't good.

Lebron was so good so early that the Cavs couldn't get any good draft position to acquire a real #2 around him.

(which was ironically remedies as soon as he left as they then got #1 pick after #1 pick)

Ironically him leaving got them the actual ammunition to truly contend with him when he returned.

[Buckeye-NBAFan]

You're welcome to your opinion that there were no circumstances where the Cavs should have trusted Loozer, but no need for the second part. Loozer was in the room. He told everyone he could that he desperately wanted to get paid early and didn't care if it cost him money in the long-term. His agent was fully aware of what Loozer was asking and the implied promise he was making.

You can read all the gory details from Gordon Gund himself:

https://www.nba.com/cavaliers/news/gund_boozer_040714.html

I appreciate the letter, as I hadn't seen it.

I still think Gordon Gund has himself to blame. I think any anger at "loozer" is misplaced.

It was a bad decision to not pick up his option. It reminds me of the "My handshake is my bond" in Jerry Maguire. It's a mistake that I like to think, I would never have done, if I was in Gund's place and that I think, most owners wouldn't have done, even if the player suggested it.

That said, and while my overall viewpoint on this has not changed after reading that letter, I was obviously wrong when I said Carlos wasn't in the room.

Gordon Gund accepted all the blame, but it's not a mistake to trust someone. Loozer's betrayal only reflects on him and if it wasn't that it could have been something else. I imagine Gund felt a combination of disappointment and relief to find out what sort of character Loozer had before handing him who knows how many millions over the years.

They tried to circumvent the salary cap AND get away with being cheapskates by forcing Boozer into a smaller contract by virtue of it being the most they could afford without full bird rights

It would have been a shame if their attempt to cheat and be cheap simultanously succeeded

[JonFromVA]

I think waste is a tough definition.

If they missed on one or two things only during those 7 years, that'd be something, but they WERE consistently making the wrong moves and not picking up any of the diamonds in the rough at all... or they traded them before they could take advantage of what they had. Or left them unprotected in the expansion draft, etc. And that lines up with their pre-Lebron track record. The Cavs were bad in part because the franchise did not do a good job of acquiring even moderate levels of talent. Or got hosed in deals they did make.

Did you really just dial this conversation back to the Cavs leaving Dell Curry unprotected in the 1988 expansion draft?

[Luv those Knicks]

You're welcome to your opinion that there were no circumstances where the Cavs should have trusted Loozer, but no need for the second part. Loozer was in the room. He told everyone he could that he desperately wanted to get paid early and didn't care if it cost him money in the long-term. His agent was fully aware of what Loozer was asking and the implied promise he was making.

You can read all the gory details from Gordon Gund himself:

https://www.nba.com/cavaliers/news/gund_boozer_040714.html

I appreciate the letter, as I hadn't seen it.

I still think Gordon Gund has himself to blame. I think any anger at "loozer" is misplaced.

It was a bad decision to not pick up his option. It reminds me of the "My handshake is my bond" in Jerry Maguire. It's a mistake that I like to think, I would never have done, if I was in Gund's place and that I think, most owners wouldn't have done, even if the player suggested it.

That said, and while my overall viewpoint on this has not changed after reading that letter, I was obviously wrong when I said Carlos wasn't in the room.

Gordon Gund accepted all the blame, but it's not a mistake to trust someone. Loozer's betrayal only reflects on him and if it wasn't that it could have been something else. I imagine Gund felt a combination of disappointment and relief to find out what sort of character Loozer had before handing him who knows how many millions over the years.

As a 2nd round pick with an option, and as I recall, they could have offered him a fair contract, not a bad deal for the team and matched any offers from other teams. Not picking up the option messed everything up.

This is where I struggle. When Boozer's option wasn't picked up, Utah offered him over double the max that Cleveland could pay him. It was a messed up situation that should never have happened.

Would I break my word for 35 million dollars? Would you? What about when you were 23 years old? Gund should never have put him in that position, no matter what he promised.

[One_and_Done]

4 things

-Mismanagement of assets by the comically incompetent Paxson in 2005 (Jiri Welsch trade, lol), -Boozer going to Utah for free
-Bron was too good too early for them to get a Scottie, a Klay, any decent young player etc. in the draft
-Larry Hughes sucked balls, got hurt, sucked even more
-Progressively desperate panic trades after 2007

The thing is I thought the 09 and 10 Cavs were actually built pretty well by the end. 126 wins over 2 years. Great defense, Mo Will arguably the perfect LBJ PG. but they also signed over the hill Wallace, Shaq, Antawn, etc. and that just ruined them in the playoffs. They were too slow and predictable with those dinosaur bigs clogging the middle… all their moves were one year behind, and they didn’t pivot to the right formula (which is athleticism and pace) around LBJ.

It’s not quite KG and Hakeem levels of franchise hell (imo, their first 9 years are probably the biggest decade long wastes of talent ever by comical mismanagement) but it’s a close 3rd.

I'm glad to see Paxson correctly get the blame. By the time Ferry got there it was too late to tank and he did a decent job of trying to fix the mess they were in.

[JonFromVA]

I appreciate the letter, as I hadn't seen it.

I still think Gordon Gund has himself to blame. I think any anger at "loozer" is misplaced.

It was a bad decision to not pick up his option. It reminds me of the "My handshake is my bond" in Jerry Maguire. It's a mistake that I like to think, I would never have done, if I was in Gund's place and that I think, most owners wouldn't have done, even if the player suggested it.

That said, and while my overall viewpoint on this has not changed after reading that letter, I was obviously wrong when I said Carlos wasn't in the room.

Gordon Gund accepted all the blame, but it's not a mistake to trust someone. Loozer's betrayal only reflects on him and if it wasn't that it could have been something else. I imagine Gund felt a combination of disappointment and relief to find out what sort of character Loozer had before handing him who knows how many millions over the years.

They tried to circumvent the salary cap AND get away with being cheapskates by forcing Boozer into a smaller contract by virtue of it being the most they could afford without full bird rights

It would have been a shame if their attempt to cheat and be cheap simultanously succeeded

Loozer was literally begging anyone and everyone for that contract ... if he was refused and things went as planned, he was going to earn $500k the next season until he would have finally been a restricted free-agent and gotten paid something significant, but his ex-wife wanted to buy some expensive **** or something.

[tsherkin]

Did you really just dial this conversation back to the Cavs leaving Dell Curry unprotected in the 1988 expansion draft?

No, I was explicitly talking about Kapono, as I had in an earlier post

[lessthanjake]

MJ’s Bulls weren’t going anywhere either. Until MJ missed basically an entire season, they got a high draft pick, and that got them Pippen. At which time MJ was suddenly inevitable.

That’s not actually what happened. Pippen wasn’t the Bulls’ pick. They had to do a draft-day trade to move up to get Pippen. And the main asset that the Bulls traded for Pippen was the 8th pick, but that was a pick that the Bulls had previously acquired in a trade. The Bulls’ own draft pick that year had nothing to do with getting Pippen. (And, just as a factual matter, they didn’t get Pippen in the draft after the season where Jordan was injured. They got Pippen in the draft that occurred after the next season).

[tsherkin]

MJ’s Bulls weren’t going anywhere either. Until MJ missed basically an entire season, they got a high draft pick, and that got them Pippen. At which time MJ was suddenly inevitable.

That’s not actually what happened. Pippen wasn’t the Bulls’ pick. They had to do a draft-day trade to move up to get Pippen. And the main asset that the Bulls traded for Pippen was the 8th pick, but that was a pick that the Bulls had previously acquired in a trade. The Bulls’ own draft pick that year had nothing to do with getting Pippen. (And, just as a factual matter, they didn’t get Pippen in the draft after the season where Jordan was injured. They got Pippen in the draft that occurred after the next season).

True, but that's sort of the point. If you look at the recap I did, you can see year after year that they were doing good things to improve the roster. Even if they were smaller things, they hit big on a couple of them and had a trend of excellent support additions, from young guys to gaining use from older vets. Mostly the opposite of what the Cavs did.

[Luv those Knicks]

I appreciate the letter, as I hadn't seen it.

I still think Gordon Gund has himself to blame. I think any anger at "loozer" is misplaced.

It was a bad decision to not pick up his option. It reminds me of the "My handshake is my bond" in Jerry Maguire. It's a mistake that I like to think, I would never have done, if I was in Gund's place and that I think, most owners wouldn't have done, even if the player suggested it.

That said, and while my overall viewpoint on this has not changed after reading that letter, I was obviously wrong when I said Carlos wasn't in the room.

Gordon Gund accepted all the blame, but it's not a mistake to trust someone. Loozer's betrayal only reflects on him and if it wasn't that it could have been something else. I imagine Gund felt a combination of disappointment and relief to find out what sort of character Loozer had before handing him who knows how many millions over the years.

They tried to circumvent the salary cap AND get away with being cheapskates by forcing Boozer into a smaller contract by virtue of it being the most they could afford without full bird rights

It would have been a shame if their attempt to cheat and be cheap simultanously succeeded

Yes. This too. Bird rights were there to protect a team from losing a prized 2nd round pick. By declining the option, Cleveland couldn't pay him as much. I don't care how much somebody wants to blame Boozer for lying, that was a questionable play by Cleveland that backfired. I also think it was a move that most GMs wouldn't have done.

My Knicks have occasionally signed for players for less money.

They signed RJ Barrett for considerably less than the rookie max, but RJ didn't deserve the rookie max.

They signed Randle for less money than some people thought he was worth, following his impressive 2020-21 season (MIP, #8 in MVP votes, NBA 2nd team), then Randle followed 20-21 with a much worse 21-22 season and people said he was overpaid, but at the time of signing, it was a team friendly deal.

Josh Hart could have opted out last off-season, but he took his player option to give the Knicks more flexibility salary wise.

In an unusual move, NY extended McBride during the season, after trading Quick and RJ, when McBride had barely played. I've talked with fellow Knick fans about this and reviews are mixed. One, if McBride had waited to play more minutes and waited for the off season, he probably gets more, but NY wanting to lock him up before he starts playing more minutes . . . feelings are mixed. On the one hand, I don't think McBride is a stud. He's more hot and cold. The Knicks probably signed him a bit under his value though.

There's rumors, but only time will tell, that both OG and I-Hart and Brunson could all take team friendly deals to keep the team together, but these things are fine and it's the players choice. The players don't have to do it, but sometimes they will do it to help the team.

Charles Barkley probably took the biggest pay cut, at least to my memory, so his Rockets would have the cap space to trade for overpaid Scotty Pippen. That didn't work out so well.

All that said, had Boozer signed with Cleveland for the max contract after declining his option. It would have felt cheap to me. It would have felt that they'd done Boozer dirty, and so, it doesn't bother me much that Boozer did them dirty after the fact.

Money and contract negotiations are part of the game, but what Cleveland hoped to sign Boozer for felt especially cheap to me.

[ChipotleWest]

Why did the Bulls waste Jordan's young career? Two of the key contributors on that team ended up leaving due to a cocaine addiction. He scored 62 in a playoff games against the Celtics and they still lost. Lebron didn't have great teammates but it was better than Jordan until they drafted Scottie. And then understandably as a rookie he only averaged 8 ppg so he wasn't ready.

[Iwasawitness]

The Nets were there. They didn't have star-level power around Kidd, but they had Kittles and Kenyon Martin and good roleplayers, which was plenty in the East.

The Nets in 07 had Vince Carter and Richard Jefferson playing alongside Kidd.