Current Jokic or Prime Steph Curry? Who was the more impactful player?

[nazario]

Jokic has been better than Steph ever was for a few seasons now. He is just a far more consistent and dominant playoff performer. He was even the best player on the floor by far when they played 2 years ago but Steph just had the far superior roster like he usually does. Ppl wanna talk about Jokic defense being hidden with great supporting pieces prolly no star has ever been more protected by having stacked defensive rosters top to bottom than Steph. He's had the best help defender and versatile defender of his era in Draymond and a bunch of other good to elite defenders to hide him on offensive liabilities and non factors his whole career..... Klay whod guard opposing star Pgs, Iggy, Bogut, Kd, Wiggins, Gp2, Looney.

And there was probably no player outside of Lebron who hid their teammates offensive deficiencies like Curry did.

[JustBuzzin]

Serious question what's with the Jokic obsession on this board?

We have like 8 Jokic threads on the front page alone. It's starting to freak me out.

[CodeBreaker]

Serious question what's with the Jokic obsession on this board?

We have like 8 Jokic threads on the front page alone. It's starting to freak me out.

Maybe because he's the best player in the world, no?

[tsherkin]

Serious question what's with the Jokic obsession on this board?

We have like 8 Jokic threads on the front page alone. It's starting to freak me out.

Is that a serious question, really?

[NZB2323]

Curry more impact in the regular season and more success in the post season. Their "system" is pretty much him. We saw what green was without curry in 2020.

Joker will have better stats and per bc he's a center with the ball in his hands = way more rebounds and. Assists. But curry's asymmetrical offense is a backbreaker against teams. That's why he sat all those 4th quarters in 2016. IMO they would've been almost just as successful if KD never came and they used that money on someone better than a Harrison Barnes who bricked all his open corner 3s vs the cavs.

How does Jokic having the ball in his hands lead to him getting more rebounds?

I would say rebounding is the biggest difference between the two and Jokic has a substantial edge there.

He gets more assists. He gets more rebounds bc he's a huge center. Which is what he's supposed to do, that's his physical edge. Which shows up way more in stats like per etc.

Curry's an underrated rebounder tho, think he's always avged around 5

So you discount his assists because he has the ball a lot and then discount his rebounds because he’s tall. Anything else you want to discount from him?

[bovice]

if u add prime KD to Denver, jokic would win fmvp

[WarriorGM]

Jokic is a multiple-time MVP and has led a championship team.

Jokic is still not in the category of Stephen Curry in terms of achievements.

This should easily be and without much question Curry. That there are many who dispute that shows that there are many people even now lying to themselves about what they witnessed during the Curry years.

[iggymcfrack]

Curry won a ring with a washed klay, draymond was having a terrible series against the celtics and wiggins as his second option, he's almost getting underrated around here.

Curry had a fantastic playoffs in 2022. He really came through in the clutch throughout the entire playoffs in a way he hadn't previously and that ring is what finally cemented him as the GOAT PG for me. But let's not use revisionist history to act like the team around him sucked and had a **** playoffs.

Here are the top 8 minutes guys sorted by postseason BPM on that Warriors team plus the last 2 Nuggets teams:

21/22 Warriors
Stephen Curry 7.7
Gary Payton II 7.4
Kevon Looney 3.1
Jordan Poole 2.8
Otto Porter Jr. 2.7
Draymond Green 0.9
Andrew Wiggins 0.8
Klay Thompson 0.7

22/23 Nuggets
Nikola Jokic 12.8
Jamal Murray 4.8
Bruce Brown 1.1
Kentavious Caldwell Pope -0.1
Aaron Gordon -0.2
Michael Porter Jr. -0.3
Christian Braun -1.4
Jeff Green -3.8

23/24 Nuggets
Nikola Jokic 12.8
Aaron Gordon 4.5
Michael Porter Jr. 0.6
Jamal Murray -1.4
Kentavious Caldwell Pope -1.4
Christian Braun -2.2
Justin Holiday -3.9
Reggie Jackson -7.0

The Warriors might not have had an ideal team in 21/22, but they were deep and the role players mostly stepped up incredibly well in the playoffs. Curry only had to play 34.7 MPG and they maintained a positive point differential with him on the bench. It wasn't some carry job. In fact, going back to 2014/15, probably the only championship teams that were more balanced and less reliant on their top star in the playoffs were the other Warriors' championship teams.

[iggymcfrack]

Jokic is a multiple-time MVP and has led a championship team.

Jokic is still not in the category of Stephen Curry in terms of achievements.

This should easily be and without much question Curry. That there are many who dispute that shows that there are many people even now lying to themselves about what they witnessed during the Curry years.

The question literally says current Jokic or prime Curry. It's not about stacking up achievements. It's about who was more impactful in their prime. Say Jokic from 2019-2024 or Curry from 2014-2019. I still have Curry a little higher on my all-time great list for career achievements at #8 vs. #11, but that's not the question being asked. It's about who was more impactful in their prime. And for that, I feel like it's Jokic by a large margin. I don't even think it's a question.

Let's look at their playoff games over that span by Game Score. If we consider 30+ to be great, 20-30 to be good, 10-20 to be average and 10 or below to be poor, here's their history:

Stephen Curry
11 great games (9.8%)
42 good games (37.5%)
35 average games (31.2%)
12 poor games (10.7%)
12 games missed due to injury (10.7%)

Nikola Jokic
20 great games (25%)
42 good games (52.5%)
16 average games (20%)
2 poor games (2.5%)
0 games missed due to injury (0%)

The consistency is on a different level. Steph was roughly 10x as likely to fail to show up in a big playoff game and a lot of the worst no-shows were in the most crucial games. Jokic's very, very few bad playoff games were all in early round series that he ended up winning.

[Handlez]

I really can't vote.

It's too close.

Curry in his absolute prime had so much gravity. (Beyond the box score)

[SpreeS]

Jokic is a multiple-time MVP and has led a championship team.

Jokic is still not in the category of Stephen Curry in terms of achievements.

This should easily be and without much question Curry. That there are many who dispute that shows that there are many people even now lying to themselves about what they witnessed during the Curry years.

The question literally says current Jokic or prime Curry. It's not about stacking up achievements. It's about who was more impactful in their prime. Say Jokic from 2019-2024 or Curry from 2014-2019. I still have Curry a little higher on my all-time great list for career achievements at #8 vs. #11, but that's not the question being asked. It's about who was more impactful in their prime. And for that, I feel like it's Jokic by a large margin. I don't even think it's a question.

Let's look at their playoff games over that span by Game Score. If we consider 30+ to be great, 20-30 to be good, 10-20 to be average and 10 or below to be poor, here's their history:

Stephen Curry
11 great games (9.8%)
42 good games (37.5%)
35 average games (31.2%)
12 poor games (10.7%)
12 games missed due to injury (10.7%)

Nikola Jokic
20 great games (25%)
42 good games (52.5%)
16 average games (20%)
2 poor games (2.5%)
0 games missed due to injury (0%)

The consistency is on a different level. Steph was roughly 10x as likely to fail to show up in a big playoff game and a lot of the worst no-shows were in the most crucial games. Jokic's very, very few bad playoff games were all in early round series that he ended up winning.

There is nothing about defence and gravity in this Game Score formula.

PTS + 0.4 * FG - 0.7 * FGA - 0.4*(FTA - FT) + 0.7 * ORB + 0.3 * DRB + STL + 0.7 * AST + 0.7 * BLK - 0.4 * PF - TOV

30pts on 10-20 3P = 27.0
30pts on 15-30 2P = 25.5

Where are 10 poss difference beetwen 2P/3P to score 30pts and only 1.5 difference in this formula...

[Jables]

There is a certain irony to the fact that Curry's teammates always got too much credit at least compared to him, but now he'd win a poll like this against nearly anyone not named Jordan or LeBron because he won a ring when half his team was cooked. Watch how Murray got way too much credit and now he was so bad he tanked the Nuggets season.

If you ask me it's pretty close.

[mowcrowbar]

Curry, easily because he won 4 chips through longeivity and is the greatest shooter of all time.

[whocurrz]

I think people underrate the impact of Golden State's defense on their dominance, and that definitely had nothing to do with Steph, but it impacts things like their postseason success and certainly things like the 73-win season. But for a time, Steph was essentially the most underguardable player in the league. That 2016 RS was insane, but Steph was quite mortal in the Finals and went out like a lamb in Game 7. Draymond Green led the team with 32 points while Steph was 6/19 from the floor and 4/14 from 3. Live by the 3, die by the 3 type of thing. Bench was pretty useless that game, too.

This is 100% true that the real unbeatable Warriors machine was fueled by great defense. Getting stops leads to pushing the pace which leads to easy buckets especially with guys like Curry and Klay spacing on the break. A few stops, easy buckets and throw in a fast break 3 or two, that is how the Warriors made 10-20 swings quickly that just overwhelmed teams. Whether it was a comeback or busting open a game, the 3rd quarter runs were largely because of defense leading to offense.

However guys like Curry and Jokic who are one-man offensive engines, who can definitively make an impact on the defense even without great individual defense. I know this is different from what you’re stating but an interesting case study especially with these two specific superstars over lots of others. These two allow the coach to surround them with defensively strong lineups that can create easy efficient offense because of the unique strengths guys like Curry and Jokic. Jokic can find cutters at a way that allows great defensive role players to be effective if they do simple things and especially on the break if they can get stops and run. Curry’s spacing allowed lineups of big wings with good IQ and speed to overwhelm teams. Iguodala being clutch made a difference in the ultimate ceiling but Steph’s unique talent allowed him to be pretty good with lineups like Juan Toscano Anderson, Draymond, Wiggins and Damion Lee to be pretty effective.

These lineups of great defensive players around Curry/ Jokic can create runs that totally get other teams out of their game. They create panic and affect strategy. They can transform games in a matter of minutes.

So while they don’t have an effect in the way you’re saying in a defense, their offensive dominance creates unique defensive opportunities/ combinations. The way these two players specifically open up the games of defensive role players makes their role a little more unique than a lot of dominant team centerpieces / superstars. Again I know you’re saying something different but the fact that this is a thread about these two guys who bring this matchup wild card to the table makes it interesting for discussing, especially considering it’s about the two players who are most unique in this regard

[nikster]

How does Jokic having the ball in his hands lead to him getting more rebounds?

I would say rebounding is the biggest difference between the two and Jokic has a substantial edge there.

He gets more assists. He gets more rebounds bc he's a huge center. Which is what he's supposed to do, that's his physical edge. Which shows up way more in stats like per etc.

Curry's an underrated rebounder tho, think he's always avged around 5

So you discount his assists because he has the ball a lot and then discount his rebounds because he’s tall. Anything else you want to discount from him?

Jokic really doesn't have the ball in his hands that much. He's nowhere close to lead guards and think he's generally similar to curry in time if possession

[The-Power]

Here are the top 8 minutes guys sorted by postseason BPM on that Warriors team plus the last 2 Nuggets teams:

Let's look at their playoff games over that span by Game Score.

I don't think boxscore watching helps us much here. I personally lean Jokic for peak but looking at boxscore-derived metrics for broad conclusions completely ignores latent impact not captured by the boxscore as well as, relatedly, how the boxscore production of teammates is not an independent observation but often highly dependent on superstars. And this is not even mentioning how raw production, which drives those boxscore numbers, does not equal impact (Game Score does not try to measure it at all, and BPM is designed as an approximation of impact but with clear flaws).

[bledredwine]

Regular season Steph was the most freakish thing I e seen since Jordan, and I say that sincerely. The problem is that he never did it in the playoffs.

[dhsilv2]

It’s true, he had plenty of gravity, but it’s also fair to point out that all that gravity still led to underwhelming offensive performance by the pre-KD Warriors in the 15 and 16 playoffs, and that was in large part because of Curry’s individual struggles.

What do you consider underwhelming to be? Cause you know...scoring generally goes down in the playoffs. Now if you wanted to say as many have Curry struggled to stay fresh and healthy...ok fine. Just like Jokic this year struggled when they asked him to play 47 minutes. Also fine.

When Jokić “struggles due to fatigue” after playing a huge minute load, he still puts up 34/19/7. His Game Score of 29.1 in Game 7 against Minnesota was better than Curry had in 12 of 13 Finals games before KD joined the team. Curry’s peak Game Score over that stretch? 29.2 in Game 4 in 2016.

Curry had 3 stinkers with a Game Score under 6 in the ‘15 and ‘16 Finals:

-Game 2 in 2015: 19/6/5 on .358 TS% with 6 turnovers for a 2.2 Game Score

-Game 1 in 2016: 11/5/6 on .367 TS% with 6 turnovers for a 2.4 Game Score

-Game 7 in 2016: 17/5/2 on .437 TS% with 4 turnovers for a 5.1 Game Score

In 80 career playoff games, Jokic has never once recorded a Game Score below 7. 3 of the biggest games of Curry’s life including the biggest, he had worse games than Jokic has EVER had in the playoffs. He’s a great player and I have him in my top 10 all-time, but he has nowhere near the consistency of Jokic when it matters most.

Full game box scores don't make a lot of sense if we're discussing the load of minutes in a singular game. Vs being injured the whole game...

[WarriorGM]

Jokic is a multiple-time MVP and has led a championship team.

Jokic is still not in the category of Stephen Curry in terms of achievements.

This should easily be and without much question Curry. That there are many who dispute that shows that there are many people even now lying to themselves about what they witnessed during the Curry years.

The question literally says current Jokic or prime Curry. It's not about stacking up achievements. It's about who was more impactful in their prime. Say Jokic from 2019-2024 or Curry from 2014-2019. I still have Curry a little higher on my all-time great list for career achievements at #8 vs. #11, but that's not the question being asked. It's about who was more impactful in their prime. And for that, I feel like it's Jokic by a large margin. I don't even think it's a question.

Let's look at their playoff games over that span by Game Score. If we consider 30+ to be great, 20-30 to be good, 10-20 to be average and 10 or below to be poor, here's their history:

Stephen Curry
11 great games (9.8%)
42 good games (37.5%)
35 average games (31.2%)
12 poor games (10.7%)
12 games missed due to injury (10.7%)

Nikola Jokic
20 great games (25%)
42 good games (52.5%)
16 average games (20%)
2 poor games (2.5%)
0 games missed due to injury (0%)

The consistency is on a different level. Steph was roughly 10x as likely to fail to show up in a big playoff game and a lot of the worst no-shows were in the most crucial games. Jokic's very, very few bad playoff games were all in early round series that he ended up winning.

Game score is basically a box score counting metric. Half of Steph's offense doesn't show up in the box score. You know where it shows up? The wins. That's why he does not have just winning seasons but record winning seasons. One can talk about Jokic's impact as much as one wants but without even a single 60-win season or victory in the playoffs against a 50-win team how are we supposed to take it seriously next to Steph's?

Consistency is overrated. Ever watch tennis? Have you ever noticed how the player who makes the most winners and unforced errors is usually the better player over the one who is merely consistent at returning the ball? Being able to dictate how the game is going to be played is more valuable and Steph does that by having the biggest weapon on the court. That's why he's gone up against the most consistent stars of the era and still mostly emerged victorious. Even when Curry has a supposedly poor game it is probably an indication he's forced the opponent to compromise. Game 5 2022 Finals Curry only scores 16 and has a gamescore of 10, is it an example in your favor? Anyone who watched the series though would know that it is the result of the Celtics abandoning Plan A—which was to force Curry to beat them because Curry showed in Game 4 he could do that—and instead adopting Plan B which was to make his teammates beat them. The result showed why it was Plan B but with Curry taking away Plan A the Celtics were already compromised.

[Mogspan]

Jokic is a multiple-time MVP and has led a championship team.

Jokic is still not in the category of Stephen Curry in terms of achievements.

This should easily be and without much question Curry. That there are many who dispute that shows that there are many people even now lying to themselves about what they witnessed during the Curry years.

The question literally says current Jokic or prime Curry. It's not about stacking up achievements. It's about who was more impactful in their prime. Say Jokic from 2019-2024 or Curry from 2014-2019. I still have Curry a little higher on my all-time great list for career achievements at #8 vs. #11, but that's not the question being asked. It's about who was more impactful in their prime. And for that, I feel like it's Jokic by a large margin. I don't even think it's a question.

Let's look at their playoff games over that span by Game Score. If we consider 30+ to be great, 20-30 to be good, 10-20 to be average and 10 or below to be poor, here's their history:

Stephen Curry
11 great games (9.8%)
42 good games (37.5%)
35 average games (31.2%)
12 poor games (10.7%)
12 games missed due to injury (10.7%)

Nikola Jokic
20 great games (25%)
42 good games (52.5%)
16 average games (20%)
2 poor games (2.5%)
0 games missed due to injury (0%)

The consistency is on a different level. Steph was roughly 10x as likely to fail to show up in a big playoff game and a lot of the worst no-shows were in the most crucial games. Jokic's very, very few bad playoff games were all in early round series that he ended up winning.

Game score is basically a box score counting metric. Half of Steph's offense doesn't show up in the box score. You know where it shows up? The wins. That's why he does not have just winning seasons but record winning seasons. One can talk about Jokic's impact as much as one wants but without even a single 60-win season or victory in the playoffs against a 50-win team how are we supposed to take it seriously next to Steph's?

Consistency is overrated. Ever watch tennis? Have you ever noticed how the player who makes the most winners and unforced errors is usually the better player over the one who is merely consistent at returning the ball? Being able to dictate how the game is going to be played is more valuable and Steph does that by having the biggest weapon on the court. That's why he's gone up against the most consistent stars of the era and still mostly emerged victorious. Even when Curry has a supposedly poor game it is probably an indication he's forced the opponent to compromise. Game 5 2022 Finals Curry only scores 16 and has a gamescore of 10, is it an example in your favor? Anyone who watched the series though would know that it is the result of the Celtics abandoning Plan A—which was to force Curry to beat them because Curry showed in Game 4 he could do that—and instead adopting Plan B which was to make his teammates beat them. The result showed why it was Plan B but with Curry taking away Plan A the Celtics were already compromised.

Half of Jokić’s offense doesn’t show up in the box score. Because he’s a playmaking center who doesn’t dominate the ball, you can surround him with athletic shooters.

Curry has played with way, way more talent than Jokić and should have more titles than 4 tbh. Jokić with the caliber of teammates of peak Curry I don’t think would even lose games. He’s certainly not losing 3 games in a row to an inferior team in the Finals. I’ll tell you that much.

Steph isn’t as good as Joker, and that’s ok! He’s only 6’2” and just can’t have the same level of impact as a 7’, 300-lbs. titan. He’s a very good player who’s played with hall of famer after hall of famer and an FMVP-caliber sixth man. Jokić is a true all-timer who’s played with a guy whose greatest accolade is being Second Team All-Rookie.