Does CP3 have any argument as being better than Durant all time?

[dk1115]

I honestly don't think so. But I will say that if there were no Steph Curry, CP3 would be the best point guard of his generation.

I honestly think Chris Paul ends up in the 40's in terms of GOAT lists, but Durant probably ends up in the late teens to early 30's.

[Lost92Bricks]

CP3 was the missing piece that guided the Suns to the Finals but he wasn't the Suns best player that season, or at least not outright like Durant was on the 2012 Thunder.

Season stats:
Booker - 25.6 ppg, 4.2 rpg, 4.3 apg on 58.7% TS
CP3 - 16.4 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 8.9 apg on 59.9% TS

Playoff stats:
Booker - 27.3 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 4.5 apg on 55.8% TS
CP3 - 19.2 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 8.6 apg on 58.4% TS

CP3 was clearly the better playmaker and Booker the better scorer. I think at best you can make the argument that they were 1A and 1B, but if you're going to definitively state that CP3 > Booker then you're going to have to bring some actual facts to the table.

Now look at turnovers and it's clear.

Then CP3 literally brought them to the finals with his performance in game 6 of the WCF.

And there's accolades. CP3 was All-NBA 2nd team, top 5 in MVP voting...Booker was not even mentioned for either.

[Lost92Bricks]

Absolutely zero chance whatsoever. He's one of the best playmakers ever but his style of play is also detrimental to the game. He sucks the air out of the game by wanting to control everything.

I don't rate KD as much as other on here (latter end of top 20), but CP3 isn't even a top 25 player.

This makes no sense.

He made everyone better.

All the players he played with had their best years because of him.

His teams were completely irrelevant before and after him. He made them competitive.

[LaLover11]

Absolutely zero chance whatsoever. He's one of the best playmakers ever but his style of play is also detrimental to the game. He sucks the air out of the game by wanting to control everything.

I don't rate KD as much as other on here (latter end of top 20), but CP3 isn't even a top 25 player.

This makes no sense.

He made everyone better.

All the players he played with had their best years because of him.

His teams were completely irrelevant before and after him. He made them competitive.

Exactly Top 3 PG of all time

Magic
LeBron
CP3
Stockton

[ghillphx]

I mean, he doesn't to these eyes, but I have KD as borderline top 10 if not in the top 10. CP3 is more like 15ish; above guys like Kobe and Barkley, but maybe not quite the same impact as KD.

cp3 over kobe is ignorance

[One_and_Done]

I mean, he doesn't to these eyes, but I have KD as borderline top 10 if not in the top 10. CP3 is more like 15ish; above guys like Kobe and Barkley, but maybe not quite the same impact as KD.

cp3 over kobe is ignorance

I'd argue it's the reverse. Kobe is the casual fans pick, as you'd expect because he's more famous and marketed. CP3 is the more informed choice.

[Hobo4President]

Yes I think someone can pretty reasonably make those arguments. I've always been super high on CP3s impact.

[AmIWrongDude]

They’re basically opposite players.

CP3 the playmaker but doesn’t have enough scoring when needed and KD the shooter/killer that struggles with playmaking.

KD was unstoppable on the Warriors because all he had to do was score and I think if CP3 was the PG for a team like the Bron Heat he would’ve won too.

That said, I’d be shocked if anyone would take CP over KD

[Mr Peanut]

CP3 was the missing piece that guided the Suns to the Finals but he wasn't the Suns best player that season, or at least not outright like Durant was on the 2012 Thunder.

Season stats:
Booker - 25.6 ppg, 4.2 rpg, 4.3 apg on 58.7% TS
CP3 - 16.4 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 8.9 apg on 59.9% TS

Playoff stats:
Booker - 27.3 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 4.5 apg on 55.8% TS
CP3 - 19.2 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 8.6 apg on 58.4% TS

CP3 was clearly the better playmaker and Booker the better scorer. I think at best you can make the argument that they were 1A and 1B, but if you're going to definitively state that CP3 > Booker then you're going to have to bring some actual facts to the table.

Now look at turnovers and it's clear.

Then CP3 literally brought them to the finals with his performance in game 6 of the WCF.

And there's accolades. CP3 was All-NBA 2nd team, top 5 in MVP voting...Booker was not even mentioned for either.

Booker averaging 3.1 turnovers to Paul's 2.2 doesn't make anything clear. The fact you would think that single stat overrides all of the other stats is laughable. And a one game sample size in the playoffs where Paul had a good game also doesn't sway anything.

In the 2021-22 season just following that year Devin Booker made the All-NBA first team and was 4th in MVP voting. Different season, but outlines how good Booker was during that period.

Yours is the less popular outlook on this topic. Take a look at this reddit thread from a couple of years ago to see what a greater variety of fans think: https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/u8u2yc/who_is_more_important_to_the_suns_success_devin/

Interesting that one can speak in such definite terms when both the stats and opinion of most fans point in the other direction.

[Impuniti]

Absolutely zero chance whatsoever. He's one of the best playmakers ever but his style of play is also detrimental to the game. He sucks the air out of the game by wanting to control everything.

I don't rate KD as much as other on here (latter end of top 20), but CP3 isn't even a top 25 player.

This makes no sense.

He made everyone better.

All the players he played with had their best years because of him.

His teams were completely irrelevant before and after him. He made them competitive.

All PGs make everyone better, that means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things. And through most of his career, his teams were completely irrelevant with him in the team as well. Did the right, safe thing all the time and wasn't able to take over games in pivotal moments.

CP3 is the basketball pseudo intellectual's dream. People get off on the idea that they're so smart to see his value, which is why he's so popular on here.

[hardenASG13]

CP3 was the missing piece that guided the Suns to the Finals but he wasn't the Suns best player that season, or at least not outright like Durant was on the 2012 Thunder.

Season stats:
Booker - 25.6 ppg, 4.2 rpg, 4.3 apg on 58.7% TS
CP3 - 16.4 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 8.9 apg on 59.9% TS

Playoff stats:
Booker - 27.3 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 4.5 apg on 55.8% TS
CP3 - 19.2 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 8.6 apg on 58.4% TS

CP3 was clearly the better playmaker and Booker the better scorer. I think at best you can make the argument that they were 1A and 1B, but if you're going to definitively state that CP3 > Booker then you're going to have to bring some actual facts to the table.

Now look at turnovers and it's clear.

Then CP3 literally brought them to the finals with his performance in game 6 of the WCF.

And there's accolades. CP3 was All-NBA 2nd team, top 5 in MVP voting...Booker was not even mentioned for either.

Ummm, the Suns literally won the first two games of that series without CP3. Then he stunk in games 3 and 4, costing them each game. Had an average game 5. Game 6 was a blowout. I know he got voted 2nd team all NBA, and was somehow top 5 MVP voting averaging 16/9 (absurd). It doesn't mean it was deserving.

As for making every team better. The Hornets/pelicans early in his career? Sure.

Houston was already good.

In LAC, he had a stacked roster (Blake Griffin was a top 10 player at the time), shooting/size everywhere. They lost to KD/Russ and trash head to head.

In OKC, they were the 6 seed the previous year, losing in the first round. They replaced a declining Westbrook with CP3, who was less declining, and replaced Paul George with SGA (19ppg that year), and Galo (18.7 ppg that year) . They were the 5 seed and lost first round.

In Phoenix, they were an up and coming young tram, who swept their schedule in the bubble in 2020. Adding all star PG in CP3 certainly helped, Booker was their best player though. They beat 3 injured teams, LA (Lebron hobbled/AD hurt), Denver (no Murray), and LAC (no kawhi, Reggie Jackson as the number 2 option). Lost to the first healthy team they faced in the finals. Then to back it up the next year, they struggled to beat the zion-less pels and lost to the first healthy team they played again, a Mavs team that had no business making the WCF.

And people here are comparing him to Kevin freaking Durant?!

[Ssj16]

Absolutely zero chance whatsoever. He's one of the best playmakers ever but his style of play is also detrimental to the game. He sucks the air out of the game by wanting to control everything.

I don't rate KD as much as other on here (latter end of top 20), but CP3 isn't even a top 25 player.

This makes no sense.

He made everyone better.

All the players he played with had their best years because of him.

His teams were completely irrelevant before and after him. He made them competitive.

All PGs make everyone better, that means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things. And through most of his career, his teams were completely irrelevant with him in the team as well. Did the right, safe thing all the time and wasn't able to take over games in pivotal moments.

CP3 is the basketball pseudo intellectual's dream. People get off on the idea that they're so smart to see his value, which is why he's so popular on here.

I wish I could give this 100 likes.

[og15]

They’re basically opposite players.

CP3 the playmaker but doesn’t have enough scoring when needed and KD the shooter/killer that struggles with playmaking.

KD was unstoppable on the Warriors because all he had to do was score and I think if CP3 was the PG for a team like the Bron Heat he would’ve won too.

That said, I’d be shocked if anyone would take CP over KD

Well of course, though the fit is not ideal as it would be a team with three primary ball handlers starting.

CP and KD pairing together is actually what would have been ideal for both. Paul is a better scorer than many acknowledge, but his size limits his scoring, but he never had strong enough scoring partnership until he was in his mid to late 30's (Harden and Booker).

[peZt]

At the moment on RealGM TOP100 2023

20th Paul
22th Durant

so there are planty of arguments Paul>Durant

This says a lot about Realgm user base lmao.

There are 0 arguments for Paul over Durant. UNless you strictly judge them based on some random analytics stats

[dhsilv2]

I honestly don't think so. But I will say that if there were no Steph Curry, CP3 would be the best point guard of his generation.

I honestly think Chris Paul ends up in the 40's in terms of GOAT lists, but Durant probably ends up in the late teens to early 30's.

30's and 40's? Are you from the future doing these lists?

[dhsilv2]

I can certainly appreciate the arguments raised, but when it comes down to a key factor that has to be looked at when comparing two greats: Durant has two championships and Paul has none. People may downplay the validity of those chips with the stacked Warriors but Durant wasn't just a passenger and was the Finals MVP for both of them.

Paul has been in the Finals once during his 19 season career and wasn't even the best player on that team. It should also be noted that Durant took teams to the Finals in 2012 and arguably 2019 as the best player (he did miss the WCF in 2019 though).

Then you factor in Olympic Gold Medals - 4 for Durant vs 2 for Paul.

Paul has had a magnificent career but I can't see how the above would put him above Durant.

CP3 > Booker.

CP3 led that team to the finals.

CP3 was the missing piece that guided the Suns to the Finals but he wasn't the Suns best player that season, or at least not outright like Durant was on the 2012 Thunder.

Season stats:
Booker - 25.6 ppg, 4.2 rpg, 4.3 apg on 58.7% TS
CP3 - 16.4 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 8.9 apg on 59.9% TS

Playoff stats:
Booker - 27.3 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 4.5 apg on 55.8% TS
CP3 - 19.2 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 8.6 apg on 58.4% TS

CP3 was clearly the better playmaker and Booker the better scorer. I think at best you can make the argument that they were 1A and 1B, but if you're going to definitively state that CP3 > Booker then you're going to have to bring some actual facts to the table.

We have stats the put everything together so we don't have to type out a lot of numbers.

CP3 vs Booker

VORP 1.2 vs 0.4
BPM 5.0 vs -0.4
WS 2.5 vs 1.2
WS/48 .178 vs .066
PER 20.7 vs 16.1

If we're just talking box score stats the gap between the two was massive.

[cupcakesnake]

At the moment on RealGM TOP100 2023

20th Paul
22th Durant

so there are planty of arguments Paul>Durant

This says a lot about Realgm user base lmao.

There are 0 arguments for Paul over Durant. UNless you strictly judge them based on some random analytics stats

My brother, the Top 100 project mentioned here is composed of dozens of users who have to make arguments for each of their votes. That means there are much more than 0 arguments for Paul over Durant.

I have Durant over Paul, so no argument there from me. To completely dismiss the idea without even being aware of what those arguments might be (and then assuming it's based on "some random analystics stats") comes across as needlessly presumptious. It sounds like you haven't read any of that stuff but are still comfortable dismissing it.

Even if I disagree, there are clearly arguments that can be made.

[dhsilv2]

It was after KG got hurt in 09. He was never quite the same again, and Perk was also hurt if I recall. That injury marked the end of KGs prime. Duncan's prime was 98-07. After that injuries gradually slowed him. He was well past his prime in 2010, and it showed. He was probably better in 12-14 than 2010, which is when he slimmed down so his injured legs weren't carrying so much weight. Dirk had a nice team, but not as good as the Lakers. The Suns had substantially downgraded. No more Marion, Amare was not as good post micro-fracture, and guys like Frye, Richardson and Lopez, while capable guys, were inferior to what Kobe had.

The 2010 Lakers were better than the 2010 Celtics because Kobe was better than KG that year. I’ll take Rondo, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, and Tony Allen over Pau, Lamar Odom, Andrew Bynum, Metta World Peace, and Derek Fischer.

Same thing for the Spurs. The 2010 Lakers were better than the 2010 Spurs because Kobe was better than Duncan. I’ll take Ginobili, Parker, George Hill, and Richard Jefferson over Kobe’s supporting cast.

If you want to argue that LeBron or Wade has worst supporting casts than Kobe in 2010, that’s perfectly reasonable, but the 2010 Lakers weren’t some incredibly stacked team. Kobe was the only top 75 player on that team.

Yeh I fundamentally disagree, especially RE: the Spurs and Pau. That was literally their worst year in the 19 year Duncan era (least wins, worst D other than 2011, 3rd worst SRS, etc).

Even moreso I disagree that Pau wasn't top 75, not that 'were you top 75?' is the measure of a support cast. By that logic it wouldn't be as good if they had 4 guys who were 77, 78, 79 and 80?

Pau not being top 75 is an absolutely wild take.

[dhsilv2]

At the moment on RealGM TOP100 2023

20th Paul
22th Durant

so there are planty of arguments Paul>Durant

This says a lot about Realgm user base lmao.

There are 0 arguments for Paul over Durant. UNless you strictly judge them based on some random analytics stats

Yeah...those random stats that lead to NBA teams hiring people...

Imagine dismissing tools that lead to 7 figure jobs in the NBA...

[Benedict_Boozer]

I think Durant is getting underrated the more I think about it. His move to GSW was chicken little and drops him, but in terms of his ability as a player - he is Lebron'ish level, CP3 isn't even close. That's kind of an insult really.