Do you believe the average NBA player is more talented now than the 90s?

[NbaAllDay]

Certain people get very defensive at the idea that the average player today is more skilled than in the 90s.

No one is saying your favourite era or 'insert favourite player' is any worse.

The average player today requires a greater skillset to play reliable minutes in the NBA.

This is based on how the game has involved and the enormous international growth.

Using ft% as a the main comparison of skill is one of the most laughable things I've heard in a while

Of course. You’ll use any stat that bolsters your claim but will dismiss a stat that weakens it.

I'm just going to assume the massive irony in your reply has gone way over your head.

[MavsDirk41]

5'3 Mugsy Bogues played for 14 years in the NBA most of them during 90's, how long do you think he will last in this era?

Barea is maybe 5’9” and he had a very nice career. Especially during the Mavs 2011 run.

[pepe1991]

Skilled? No.
Average nba height (6'7) and similar weight hasn't changed in past 40 years.
Desired skilled of what "average nba player" has just changed , given shift in playing style.
You simply didn't need shooter in 1993 because teams averaged 9 three point shots a game.

Hell, until 1979 there was no need for shooter, 3 point line didn't exist.

Average 3 points made in 1988 were 1,6 a game. People didn't learn how to shoot from distance because it was not something it was desired to do.
Player's selection through draft, free agency etc needs to be viewed through lances of time to understand context.

let's say you are building anti- Lakers roster in 1984. They have:
6'9 PG megastar
7'2 center
6'6 SG-SF
6'9 SF-PF
6'3 -guard

They are HUGE team. You can't just throw in random group of 6'5 people and expect to challenge them, Jabbar & Magic would post you up to oblivion.

Basketball was played similar to 80s fashion in 90s as well.

If you look at drafts from early 1990s, all top picks were by default bigs. After 1994, but especially in 1996 ( Iverson, Kobe , Allen) there was start of shift away from PF/Cs to perimeter players. But even that didn't last that long, 2000, 2001,2002 were back to "big or bust " strategy. People often wonder how Milicic was drafted that high, and this is exect reason why. On same draft, Bosh was drafted over Wade. Kaman was 7# pick.
2004 draft again had 2 centers going 1-2.
2005 had C going 1#
2006 draft had all 5 top picks being bigs
2007 had Oden over Durant, Horford (C) as 3rd pick, only 4 non PF-Cs drafted in lottery.

younger people, sub age of some 30 nowdays have hard times wrapping their heads around idea that basketball wasn't played from perimeter until mid 2010s. Even when it was played from perimeter ( T mac, Carter, Kobe era) those teams had almost no sucess without star bigs and those players were , by today's standards some of most notorious ballhog chuckers. People who would average 20+ ppg on some 50% TS ,+30% usage and 20 shots. They were just copycats of Jordan era. Even best copycats ( Kobe) were not close to him.
Today you have similar thing going on, there are countless "new Lebrons" but nobody is nowhere near as good. "Point forwards, 6'9 guards, 6'8 ballhandlers" but nobody is anywhere near orginal.

NBA ALWAYS was and will continue to be copycat league. Whatever works for champions, other GMs will try to mimic for half of decade. that's why basketball at this level needed to be played until some 2016 before people accepted advanced stats as something normal, not boogeyman, woodoo numbers.

[pepe1991]

5'3 Mugsy Bogues played for 14 years in the NBA most of them during 90's, how long do you think he will last in this era?

Barea is maybe 5’9” and he had a very nice career. Especially during the Mavs 2011 run.

Isaiah Thomas was top 5 in MVP vote , fatty 5'8 in 2017.

[Bankai]

Yes, I think the talent in the NBA is as deep as its ever been.

[syrus3]

Absolutely not!

This current generation lives in delusions of grandeur.

[ChiTownHero1992]

Yes but with stipulations, as I always say, you cannot compare eras due to the outside factors.

Players today have modern advancements in medicine, more coaching, more opportunities from youth levels, etc, give the players of the 70's and 80's and 90's those same things and they'd be even more remarkable then they were, and you take away those factors from today's players and I believe they'd honestly be WORSE then the players of previous eras.

Modern basketball coaching/teams do not focus on the fundamentals as much as they used to/should, and you can see this translate to how NBA is played now, palming, traveling, CRAB dribbles (lol), all the other things that are not true basketball fundamentals or actual moves but are considered OK today because the player's are not as pure as they once were and are "more athletic"

[165bows]

Idk but I think they are on average more serious and business oriented compared to that time period. I could be wrong on that but that’s my impression.

[Saints14]

FT % in the 1970’s - 75.4%

FT % in the 2010’s - 76.0%

If the modern player is so much more skilled, why have FT% for the league as a whole remained virtually the same over the past 50 years? Athletes are better, training is better, sports science is better, players practice more and yet the percentages are nearly identical. Can’t wait to read the mental gymnastics used to justify the responses.

That is pretty fascinating, you'd certainly think with the increased emphasis on shooting now vs in the past that would be reflected in FT%. I would be interested not in the overall FT% of the league but of the average among players because this would still be weighted towards the type of players who draw fouls, but even still this could be more reflective of how NBA systems and strategy have evolved more than players themselves. Though I do still think just the rise in international talent alone raises the overall average talent level

[ballzboyee]

FT % in the 1970’s - 75.4%

FT % in the 2010’s - 76.0%

If the modern player is so much more skilled, why have FT% for the league as a whole remained virtually the same over the past 50 years? Athletes are better, training is better, sports science is better, players practice more and yet the percentages are nearly identical. Can’t wait to read the mental gymnastics used to justify the responses.

That is pretty fascinating, you'd certainly think with the increased emphasis on shooting now vs in the past that would be reflected in FT%. I would be interested not in the overall FT% of the league but of the average among players because this would still be weighted towards the type of players who draw fouls, but even still this could be more reflective of how NBA systems and strategy have evolved more than players themselves. Though I do still think just the rise in international talent alone raises the overall average talent level

Just proves teams spamming 3's isn't as big of skill leap as people make it out to be. The push for more 3 and D guys and spread offenses is mostly team/coach driven, not player driven. Players have adapted to the analytics, and then the league pushed rules that made it easier than ever for perimeter players to score. Players today are not more athletic than in the past, but it is fair to say they have a skill advantage when it comes to the emphasis on shooting from beyond the arc. This shift in philosophy from inside post oriented game to perimeter game could have taken hold at any time and players in the 90's would have adjusted also.

[JRoy]

More talented at basketball? So much to dissect here. Basketball encompasses so many things.

For reference this is what I see in the American basketball pipeline. I can’t comment on various countries with various programs.

I played on the national circuit with and against guys who played at top college programs, for international teams, and guys in the NBA you would recognize. My family consists of college players and college coaches.

I assumed for the longest time guys just kept getting better. But lately after years of not playing in any meaningful games and watching some of the youth basketball I’ve noticed a handful of things.

Where it’s worse:

1 - The general youth today don’t feel comfortable posting up, more so especially back to the basket. They don’t comprehend the point or purpose of playing back to the basket. You post up because you want a specific spot on the court for your shot. You use your back to shield the ball. The width between your front and backside as separation to get off a shot. It’s why thick guys like Shaq and Barkley were such monsters to guard because that thickness creates separation between them and you contesting the shot release. The youth I see today don’t comprehend why a guy like Barkley or Shaq caught the ball facing away from the hoop.

2 - Attacking the seam off the catch. Today you see youth playing and they catch the ball on the swing pass and survey. It’s a lot more standing around dribbling to see what’s going on. Less attacking and dribbling with immediate intent. It used to be taught when you are on offense and you are the weak side guy as soon as you catch that ball you attack the open seam of the defense because the defense is trying to scramble to recover from strong side. Now guys catch that swing pass and hold, drives me crazy.

3 - Youth today don’t really comprehend why a guy moves without the ball to get his shot. They don’t understand giving up the ball and moving to receive it in a better spot. MJ and Kobe were so tough because they would give up the ball in one spot and then move to get it back in a better spot. Today you see guys as soon as they give the ball up they become a standstill guy waiting to get it back in the same exact spot.

4 - Youth today teams run far less variety of offensive systems and plays. It seems like everyone plays a four out one in offense where whomever wins the game is predicated by which team has better one on one scorers. I played in a lot of different systems but most notably a four out one in motion offense that Jay Wright ran at Villanova where all the guys are moving and you don’t just park in the corner. It’s far easier to overcome talent, size, and depth shortcomings when you run a unique system and not the same generic game plan everyone has.

Where it’s better:

1 - More guys feel comfortable shooting the 3 point shot. The reality is when you spend less time working on your game in the paint or even inside the arc you have more time to spend on it shooting outside the arc. Still most guys aren’t really great at shooting outside shots but you have more people who are comfortable taking the outside shot. More guys willing and comfortable taking the outside shot has spread the floor and made it easier for the quickest guys like the guards typically to dominate. When the paint was more packed it was harder to find the same seams to attack.

2 - Ball handling, so this is a bit tricky. You have ball handling as in you can handle a basketball and keep it safe and deliver the ball like Stockton and Mark Jackson, that hasn’t improved imo. The other side of ball handling is your moves off the bounce so think like Jordan Poole, that aspect has improved.

3 - Greater international influence. It seems like every year you have more talent outside the U.S. trying to get into the NBA and that expands the pool.

Where people think it’s changed:

1 - Athletically. For reference I played college baseball, had MLB scouts at all my games. Trained in the offseason with MLB players, minor league players, and my head coach was a long time pro who played with the biggest names you can think of. At that level so much research is done in terms of your mechanics, sports psychology, and how the body develops and moves. I was a pitcher, these top flight coaches and baseball industry guys meet regularly to discuss these topics with scientists to make sure they are promoting the most advanced techniques and protocols. I remember one lesson that stood out was why can’t Clayton Kershaw throw as hard as Roger Clemens or Nolan Ryan. These guys are three different time periods in baseball, with all the advancements why isn’t everyone throwing harder than Nolan Ryan? It’s because humans only evolve so fast. We all have physical limitations with the time or torque, power, speed our bones, ligaments, and tendons can handle. People don’t just rapidly evolve physically, it’s really slow.

If your Dad was 5-8 I am gonna assume you aren’t 6-4. People don’t just change rapidly. We aren’t gonna have a league of guys who are 8 feet tall with 50 inch verts in 15 years.

Great post. Appreciate the insight.

[dhsilv2]

5'3 Mugsy Bogues played for 14 years in the NBA most of them during 90's, how long do you think he will last in this era?

Barea is maybe 5’9” and he had a very nice career. Especially during the Mavs 2011 run.

The average male height is around about 5'9 (maybe slightly taller). 99.23% of men are taller than 5'3 in the world. These two aren't comparable.

[dhsilv2]

5'3 Mugsy Bogues played for 14 years in the NBA most of them during 90's, how long do you think he will last in this era?

Barea is maybe 5’9” and he had a very nice career. Especially during the Mavs 2011 run.

Isaiah Thomas was top 5 in MVP vote , fatty 5'8 in 2017.

And Spud Webb was starting at 5'6 for a time as well.

The league has less really tall guys today as they have less need for lumbering bigs (thought Wemby is I guess going the other way again minus the lumbering). And yeah, it's harder to be short today. This is because as the skill goes up, you need guys who can guard multiple players. Meanwhile there are more skilled big enough bigs so you have less need to just fight size with more size.

[dhsilv2]

Absolutely not!

This current generation lives in delusions of grandeur.

If this is true, that would mean the parent's of today's players are the greatest failures as a generation in human history. So those in their late 30's to late 50's kids and those who taught them (going up to those say in their 70's today) are humanities greatest failures?

So for the 200k years of humanity, each generation was better than the last...until today.

[nomansland]

I think the talent pool is a lot bigger given the international expansion of the game. But if you gave players from the 80's and 90's the same training, equipment, nutrition and medical care that current players get, the talent would be about the same.

They were still exceptional athletes back then but they didn't have the advantages modern players do. If they did, most of them could compete in today's NBA.

[dhsilv2]

FT % in the 1970’s - 75.4%

FT % in the 2010’s - 76.0%

If the modern player is so much more skilled, why have FT% for the league as a whole remained virtually the same over the past 50 years? Athletes are better, training is better, sports science is better, players practice more and yet the percentages are nearly identical. Can’t wait to read the mental gymnastics used to justify the responses.

That is pretty fascinating, you'd certainly think with the increased emphasis on shooting now vs in the past that would be reflected in FT%. I would be interested not in the overall FT% of the league but of the average among players because this would still be weighted towards the type of players who draw fouls, but even still this could be more reflective of how NBA systems and strategy have evolved more than players themselves. Though I do still think just the rise in international talent alone raises the overall average talent level

It's also a bit misleading. Last year's free throw shooting was over 78%. And frankly, free throw shooting should be one of the areas of the game that we'd see a max out in terms of results faster than others. It's the area with the least variability. A 1% increase is a huge increase in something that's already nearing maxim levels.

[dhsilv2]

FT % in the 1970’s - 75.4%

FT % in the 2010’s - 76.0%

If the modern player is so much more skilled, why have FT% for the league as a whole remained virtually the same over the past 50 years? Athletes are better, training is better, sports science is better, players practice more and yet the percentages are nearly identical. Can’t wait to read the mental gymnastics used to justify the responses.

That is pretty fascinating, you'd certainly think with the increased emphasis on shooting now vs in the past that would be reflected in FT%. I would be interested not in the overall FT% of the league but of the average among players because this would still be weighted towards the type of players who draw fouls, but even still this could be more reflective of how NBA systems and strategy have evolved more than players themselves. Though I do still think just the rise in international talent alone raises the overall average talent level

Just proves teams spamming 3's isn't as big of skill leap as people make it out to be. The push for more 3 and D guys and spread offenses is mostly team/coach driven, not player driven. Players have adapted to the analytics, and then the league pushed rules that made it easier than ever for perimeter players to score. Players today are not more athletic than in the past, but it is fair to say they have a skill advantage when it comes to the emphasis on shooting from beyond the arc. This shift in philosophy from inside post oriented game to perimeter game could have taken hold at any time and players in the 90's would have adjusted also.

Anyone who lifts weights seriously today is going to be better than 30-40 years ago. Hell, Jordan who was one of the guys who brought weight training into the regular season, skipped leg days! He'd be laughed out of a gym today doing that.

[Hair Jordan]

Skilled? No.
Average nba height (6'7) and similar weight hasn't changed in past 40 years.
Desired skilled of what "average nba player" has just changed , given shift in playing style.
You simply didn't need shooter in 1993 because teams averaged 9 three point shots a game.

Hell, until 1979 there was no need for shooter, 3 point line didn't exist.

Average 3 points made in 1988 were 1,6 a game. People didn't learn how to shoot from distance because it was not something it was desired to do.
Player's selection through draft, free agency etc needs to be viewed through lances of time to understand context.

let's say you are building anti- Lakers roster in 1984. They have:
6'9 PG megastar
7'2 center
6'6 SG-SF
6'9 SF-PF
6'3 -guard

They are HUGE team. You can't just throw in random group of 6'5 people and expect to challenge them, Jabbar & Magic would post you up to oblivion.

Basketball was played similar to 80s fashion in 90s as well.

If you look at drafts from early 1990s, all top picks were by default bigs. After 1994, but especially in 1996 ( Iverson, Kobe , Allen) there was start of shift away from PF/Cs to perimeter players. But even that didn't last that long, 2000, 2001,2002 were back to "big or bust " strategy. People often wonder how Milicic was drafted that high, and this is exect reason why. On same draft, Bosh was drafted over Wade. Kaman was 7# pick.
2004 draft again had 2 centers going 1-2.
2005 had C going 1#
2006 draft had all 5 top picks being bigs
2007 had Oden over Durant, Horford (C) as 3rd pick, only 4 non PF-Cs drafted in lottery.

younger people, sub age of some 30 nowdays have hard times wrapping their heads around idea that basketball wasn't played from perimeter until mid 2010s. Even when it was played from perimeter ( T mac, Carter, Kobe era) those teams had almost no sucess without star bigs and those players were , by today's standards some of most notorious ballhog chuckers. People who would average 20+ ppg on some 50% TS ,+30% usage and 20 shots. They were just copycats of Jordan era. Even best copycats ( Kobe) were not close to him.
Today you have similar thing going on, there are countless "new Lebrons" but nobody is nowhere near as good. "Point forwards, 6'9 guards, 6'8 ballhandlers" but nobody is anywhere near orginal.

NBA ALWAYS was and will continue to be copycat league. Whatever works for champions, other GMs will try to mimic for half of decade. that's why basketball at this level needed to be played until some 2016 before people accepted advanced stats as something normal, not boogeyman, woodoo numbers.

Best post I’ve read all week

[ballzboyee]

That is pretty fascinating, you'd certainly think with the increased emphasis on shooting now vs in the past that would be reflected in FT%. I would be interested not in the overall FT% of the league but of the average among players because this would still be weighted towards the type of players who draw fouls, but even still this could be more reflective of how NBA systems and strategy have evolved more than players themselves. Though I do still think just the rise in international talent alone raises the overall average talent level

Just proves teams spamming 3's isn't as big of skill leap as people make it out to be. The push for more 3 and D guys and spread offenses is mostly team/coach driven, not player driven. Players have adapted to the analytics, and then the league pushed rules that made it easier than ever for perimeter players to score. Players today are not more athletic than in the past, but it is fair to say they have a skill advantage when it comes to the emphasis on shooting from beyond the arc. This shift in philosophy from inside post oriented game to perimeter game could have taken hold at any time and players in the 90's would have adjusted also.

Anyone who lifts weights seriously today is going to be better than 30-40 years ago. Hell, Jordan who was one of the guys who brought weight training into the regular season, skipped leg days! He'd be laughed out of a gym today doing that.

Average player in 1995 was 6'7" and 213 lbs. Today average is 6'7" and 215lb. In 1998 it was 215 lbs on average. If players today are doing all this leg work why aren't they significantly heavier with more muscle mass? Because they are training for pliability, flexibility, explosiveness, quickness, and agility. You don't want huge thunder thighs and massive glutes from squats to play professional basketball in any era. If player's today were doing serious leg work, they would weigh a lot more than players in the 1990's. I admit that in the 1980's players were not lifting so much, but by the mid-1990's weight training was fairly standard.

[Bergmaniac]

Of course players are more skilled on average today, you have to be drunk on nostalgia to deny it. Just go watch a few random games on Youtube from the 1990s and try to be remotely objective. Chances are you will see several players getting rotation minutes even deep in the playoffs who'd never see the floor outside of garbage time today if they even make the league.

Just because you grew up in the 1990s and/or your favourite player played mostly in this era doesn't make this era in any way special objectively, you don't need to defend it blindly all the time.