Can we safely say Jokic is the best offensive player ever?

[Vampirate]

Is he the greatest scorer ever? No. Is he the greatest shooter ever? No. Is he the most dominant post player ever? No. Is he the greatest closer in history? No. Is he the greatest passer ever? Maybe more of a debate there but I would guess most would say no.


Jokic is great, what he does as a non so jacked or athletic 6'11" 280lbs is nuts but he has a long way to go to be considered the GOAT.

Here's the bigger question though, offensively what's his weakness?

Passing? Check.

Shot at the rim? check

Midrange? Check

3 point shooting? Good enough

FT shooting? Check

In the post season he averages 27.7 PPG on 53/39/83.7 splits with 7.5 assists

Again, what's his weakness?

I wouldn't say he's the best offensive player, but his game should age very well, and he's easily top 10 at least.

[Johnny Bball]

Good point. Jokic is facing far stronger competition then either of those faced - especially Wilt. That's make the fact that he is head and shoulders above everybody else offensively currently way more impressive.

MJ never put together a 5 year offensive stretch like Jokic is doing. Never had an offensive year like Jokic is having. Jokic is simply on another level.

No. The only position to get smaller and the defense against big centres weaker, is precisely at centre. He's playing against "worst" defenders because there are so many smallball centres and centres that just aren't that big that have to guard the perimeter.

The flipside to this is team defense is way more complex and dynamic than its ever been. There may be a lot of smaller fives but it's also pretty rare Jokic gets single coverage anywhere, let alone close to the basket.

Plus he generally cooks even the likes of Gobert and AD in the post if they try to guard him one on one. The idea that he'd have any resl trouble.in the 90s is pretty funny. He's a giant, physical man with magnificent touch and footwork.

Ah, the ever too complex for you to understand answer.

Yeah, sure. Shaq, Robinson, Hakeem etc. were never doubled. And they all got the benefit of a restricted area and gather step in the 90's.

[Synciere]

I think white people want Jokic to be that guy ahead of Jordan even without the extra five rings and scoring stats.. he’s not even at Lebron status yet. Otherwise, why not elevate harden orSteph or Lebron?

[Wolfgang630]

Time to bring race into this. I guess it was inevitable. *gulp*

[HotRocks34]

I think white people want Jokic to be that guy ahead of Jordan even without the extra five rings and scoring stats.. he’s not even at Lebron status yet. Otherwise, why not elevate harden orSteph or Lebron?

Embarrassing.

[Lockdown504090]

Is he the greatest scorer ever? No. Is he the greatest shooter ever? No. Is he the most dominant post player ever? No. Is he the greatest closer in history? No. Is he the greatest passer ever? Maybe more of a debate there but I would guess most would say no.


Jokic is great, what he does as a non so jacked or athletic 6'11" 280lbs is nuts but he has a long way to go to be considered the GOAT.

Here's the bigger question though, offensively what's his weakness?

Passing? Check.

Shot at the rim? check

Midrange? Check

3 point shooting? Good enough

FT shooting? Check

In the post season he averages 27.7 PPG on 53/39/83.7 splits with 7.5 assists

Again, what's his weakness?

I wouldn't say he's the best offensive player, but his game should age very well, and he's easily top 10 at least.

Hmm I saw him get guarded pretty well in the playoffs last year on an individual level by a couple guys that weren’t great defenders, but knew his pet moves. The league doesn’t have, and he hadn’t seen many good post defenders, but it’s something to watch going forward. Teams are going to watch towns and Reid on tape and find new ways to defend him. Not saying it will work, there are other examples when teams figure a guy out and it goes to other teams.

I think he’s tier one all time btw.

[DCasey91]

As far as people guarding Jokic nobody currently in the league can check him one on one. Zubac and Nurkic are probably the two best options and Jokic hit the Clips for 41 points on 14/26 FGA earlier this year when they tried to have Zubac single cover him. Eventually he'll solve one on one coverage and roll it.

I think in the two games Jokic played Nurkic last season he averaged 23 PPG on 47% FG (17/36). Not his typical 26 ppg on 58% last year but I would not call that being shut down. Just a bit slowed. In the two outings, a win and a loss, Jokic had 21/5/16 with a 30 NBA EFF (very good) and 25/16/5 with a 27 NBA EFF (good). Nurkic didn't play in the teams' third meeting.

Squads that are good at double teaming Jokic, like the Thunder, often do best against the Nuggets.

I don't know what Zubac weighs these days but I think Nurkic is like 290 lbs. Ayton used to do ok against Jokic and he's like 250.

In order to try and guard Jokic someone has to be tall, heavy and strong. Anthony Davis is like 6' 9" barefoot and 250 and he can't do anything against Jokic. He doesn't have the length or body leverage. Jokic is 6' 11" and maybe 275 himself.

I'd like to see Ewing (255) and Robinson (250) defending Jokic but I don't know if either of them has enough mass to get the job done, particularly Robinson. Hakeem (260) and Shaq (300) might be better options. Hakeem was an extremely strong guy.

Those four weren't used to routinely checking guys out to the three point line, however, and that would make things tougher for them.

Jokic is a unique blend of bulk and finesse, as well as shooting. I doubt any historical figure would be able to consistently lock him down one on one.

I know people harp on Embiid but he's literally the ideal matchup defensively. More used to modern setups obviously and Jokic can't overwhelm him on the strength department

Jokic cooks Gobert because he's way too smart when length isn't the be all and end all.

There was a game where Ben and Embiid caused a great deal stoppage along with Tucker. It's sad but Ben style wise is a brilliant match against Luka/Tatum and somehow Lillard

But yeah ironically outside of Curry you do not under any circumstance let Jokic/Shaq Bron and Jordan dictate play inside. When it happens its a nightmare to slow down.

Philly may have been the first team to use a PF to guard Jokic because Embiid picked up some quick fouls checking him. That started in Jan 2023, about two years ago.

https://www.libertyballers.com/2023/1/29/23576354/doc-rivers-halftime-adjustment-turned-p-j-tucker-into-an-unlikely-hero

That concept then spread throughout the league and led to the steady double teaming of Jokic we see today, frequently done with a PF on Jokic and the center guarding the rim to stop Jokic from driving. There's a few variations of the coverage but I think the Sixers moving Embiid off Jokic in that game got the ball rolling.

Embiid does have the physical profile to guard Jokic (tall, heavy) but I'm not sure if he's disciplined enough as a defender to do so consistently without fouling.

I believe Philly still uses the same "PF on Jokic" strategy today, at least when Embiid plays. This is from the meeting in Philadelphia last season (Embiid did not play in Denver).




This is what Embiid said about Tucker guarding Jokic in 2023. There's more in the article but partly he says it's hard to guard Jokic without fouling but another thing he added is that it's tough to defend Jokic's passes to cutters so it may actually be better to have the center guard the rim from cutters Jikic passes to and let a PF guard Jokic straight up. And that's how a lot of teams play Denver and Jokic now.

Yep hit the nail on the head. You know a player is great when you definety need multiple guys actively on defence to guard him along with a whole strategy base. It's basically Bron/Curry when as soon as he touches its like oh sh*t we have to execute it here.

He's the most dangerous Big from the full court all the way to the rim.

Like a damned if you damned if you don't situation. If you don't have size inside he's going to have his way. If you push up there's multiple cutting scenarios with wings or pnr with Murray and an elite lob threat in Gordon. Suns actively went well you'll have to beat us but we can't let others get easy buckets... And Jokic went ballistic that one game.

There really isn't a shutdown option like saying how much can we actually nuetralise?

The huge difference is that despite Bron was a literal tank at the rim you can front him with a primary and a blocker or two
And even still when his jumper got hot it was basically ggs. Still need the personel and disclipline to do it

Jokic doesn't have that worry because he shoots it like Dirk across the whole area of the halfcourt lol. Maybe that's the way forward. He still cooks (which is always) but target the other 4.

[Vampirate]

Is he the greatest scorer ever? No. Is he the greatest shooter ever? No. Is he the most dominant post player ever? No. Is he the greatest closer in history? No. Is he the greatest passer ever? Maybe more of a debate there but I would guess most would say no.


Jokic is great, what he does as a non so jacked or athletic 6'11" 280lbs is nuts but he has a long way to go to be considered the GOAT.

Here's the bigger question though, offensively what's his weakness?

Passing? Check.

Shot at the rim? check

Midrange? Check

3 point shooting? Good enough

FT shooting? Check

In the post season he averages 27.7 PPG on 53/39/83.7 splits with 7.5 assists

Again, what's his weakness?

I wouldn't say he's the best offensive player, but his game should age very well, and he's easily top 10 at least.

Hmm I saw him get guarded pretty well in the playoffs last year on an individual level by a couple guys that weren’t great defenders, but knew his pet moves. The league doesn’t have, and he hadn’t seen many good post defenders, but it’s something to watch going forward. Teams are going to watch towns and Reid on tape and find new ways to defend him. Not saying it will work, there are other examples when teams figure a guy out and it goes to other teams

Here are the players i'd take over Jokic offensively.

MJ - enough said, 6 rings in 8 years.
Kareem - The inventor of the sky hook was the embodiment of unstoppable
Lebron - Similar post season stats, but Lebron slightly edges Jokic here and for much longer.

Peak Shaq - Not so much career, but the most unstoppable thing at his Peak


Debatable can go either way

Magic - Magic the better passer, Jokic the better scorer
Steph - Both are offensive systems in different ways

No argument against

KD - great scorer but won't elevate a team like Jokic
Harden - Mostly a regular season system
Kawhi - (would be fun to think 'if healthy') but Kawhi would still come up short
Embiid - doesn't have the passing, and isn't post season dominant, + injuries

[QPR]

No. The only position to get smaller and the defense against big centres weaker, is precisely at centre. He's playing against "worst" defenders because there are so many smallball centres and centres that just aren't that big that have to guard the perimeter.

The flipside to this is team defense is way more complex and dynamic than its ever been. There may be a lot of smaller fives but it's also pretty rare Jokic gets single coverage anywhere, let alone close to the basket.

Plus he generally cooks even the likes of Gobert and AD in the post if they try to guard him one on one. The idea that he'd have any resl trouble.in the 90s is pretty funny. He's a giant, physical man with magnificent touch and footwork.

Ah, the ever too complex for you to understand answer.

Yeah, sure. Shaq, Robinson, Hakeem etc. were never doubled. And they all got the benefit of a restricted area and gather step in the 90's.

I just think 90s bigs are the most overrated commodity in the history of sport. There were some greats and plenty of stiffs, it wasn't some super era that a modern big couldn't cope with

[HotRocks34]

I'm glad Kareem got brought up because he definitely deserves some respect in this discussion IMO. I thought about naming him before as an "honorable mention" to my top four list.

The reason I don't have him as a top 4 guy is that he's not as dominant a scorer as Wilt and Jordan and he's not a passer on the level of Jokic and LeBron. Also, he doesn't shoot threes.

With that said the Sky Hook is one of the most unstoppable offensive moves in the history of the game.

[DCasey91]

QPR

Hakeem, Ewing, Younger to prime Shaq, Robinson, Young Duncan, Mutumbo, Mourning

Tell me how on earth are they overrated?

Doesn't take a brain surgeon to realise there's better matchups in the 90's for Jokic then now alongside a completely different play style. Not to say he'd be better or worse its just how it is.

[MrBigShot]

I think peak LeBron is a better offensive player, but honestly Jokic has a strong argument for it.

The guy is a prolific 30+ppg scorer, he does it at absurd efficiency, he can knock down threes, he is arguably the best passer in the game, and he is virtually unstoppable in single coverage. The gap between Jokic and the 2nd best player in the league right now is massive.

[Lockdown504090]

Here's the bigger question though, offensively what's his weakness?

Passing? Check.

Shot at the rim? check

Midrange? Check

3 point shooting? Good enough

FT shooting? Check

In the post season he averages 27.7 PPG on 53/39/83.7 splits with 7.5 assists

Again, what's his weakness?

I wouldn't say he's the best offensive player, but his game should age very well, and he's easily top 10 at least.

Hmm I saw him get guarded pretty well in the playoffs last year on an individual level by a couple guys that weren’t great defenders, but knew his pet moves. The league doesn’t have, and he hadn’t seen many good post defenders, but it’s something to watch going forward. Teams are going to watch towns and Reid on tape and find new ways to defend him. Not saying it will work, there are other examples when teams figure a guy out and it goes to other teams

Here are the players i'd take over Jokic offensively.

MJ - enough said, 6 rings in 8 years.
Kareem - The inventor of the sky hook was the embodiment of unstoppable
Lebron - Similar post season stats, but Lebron slightly edges Jokic here and for much longer.

Peak Shaq - Not so much career, but the most unstoppable thing at his Peak


Debatable can go either way

Magic - Magic the better passer, Jokic the better scorer
Steph - Both are offensive systems in different ways

No argument against

KD - great scorer but won't elevate a team like Jokic
Harden - Mostly a regular season system
Kawhi - (would be fun to think 'if healthy') but Kawhi would still come up short
Embiid - doesn't have the passing, and isn't post season dominant, + injuries

I flip flop between jokic/steph because Steph can create a tempo that jokic cant, but jokic is a better scorer at the end of the clock (until last playoffs) and thats really important for a superstar to do. I really need to see if having a strong guy with good iq and a tall guy helping is going to stop slow jokic's scoring in key moments, or if hes going to find another way to score it. I have a lot clips of this strat, and the jury is out. I wanna see what he does this year about it.

[MavsDirk41]

Here's the bigger question though, offensively what's his weakness?

Passing? Check.

Shot at the rim? check

Midrange? Check

3 point shooting? Good enough

FT shooting? Check

In the post season he averages 27.7 PPG on 53/39/83.7 splits with 7.5 assists

Again, what's his weakness?

I wouldn't say he's the best offensive player, but his game should age very well, and he's easily top 10 at least.

Hmm I saw him get guarded pretty well in the playoffs last year on an individual level by a couple guys that weren’t great defenders, but knew his pet moves. The league doesn’t have, and he hadn’t seen many good post defenders, but it’s something to watch going forward. Teams are going to watch towns and Reid on tape and find new ways to defend him. Not saying it will work, there are other examples when teams figure a guy out and it goes to other teams

Here are the players i'd take over Jokic offensively.

MJ - enough said, 6 rings in 8 years.
Kareem - The inventor of the sky hook was the embodiment of unstoppable
Lebron - Similar post season stats, but Lebron slightly edges Jokic here and for much longer.

Peak Shaq - Not so much career, but the most unstoppable thing at his Peak


Debatable can go either way

Magic - Magic the better passer, Jokic the better scorer
Steph - Both are offensive systems in different ways

No argument against

KD - great scorer but won't elevate a team like Jokic
Harden - Mostly a regular season system
Kawhi - (would be fun to think 'if healthy') but Kawhi would still come up short
Embiid - doesn't have the passing, and isn't post season dominant, + injuries

Bird should be in the conversation

[AleksandarN]

As far as people guarding Jokic nobody currently in the league can check him one on one. Zubac and Nurkic are probably the two best options and Jokic hit the Clips for 41 points on 14/26 FGA earlier this year when they tried to have Zubac single cover him. Eventually he'll solve one on one coverage and roll it.

I think in the two games Jokic played Nurkic last season he averaged 23 PPG on 47% FG (17/36). Not his typical 26 ppg on 58% last year but I would not call that being shut down. Just a bit slowed. In the two outings, a win and a loss, Jokic had 21/5/16 with a 30 NBA EFF (very good) and 25/16/5 with a 27 NBA EFF (good). Nurkic didn't play in the teams' third meeting.

Squads that are good at double teaming Jokic, like the Thunder, often do best against the Nuggets.

I don't know what Zubac weighs these days but I think Nurkic is like 290 lbs. Ayton used to do ok against Jokic and he's like 250.

In order to try and guard Jokic someone has to be tall, heavy and strong. Anthony Davis is like 6' 9" barefoot and 250 and he can't do anything against Jokic. He doesn't have the length or body leverage. Jokic is 6' 11" and maybe 275 himself.

I'd like to see Ewing (255) and Robinson (250) defending Jokic but I don't know if either of them has enough mass to get the job done, particularly Robinson. Hakeem (260) and Shaq (300) might be better options. Hakeem was an extremely strong guy.

Those four weren't used to routinely checking guys out to the three point line, however, and that would make things tougher for them.

Jokic is a unique blend of bulk and finesse, as well as shooting. I doubt any historical figure would be able to consistently lock him down one on one.

I know people harp on Embiid but he's literally the ideal matchup defensively. More used to modern setups obviously and Jokic can't overwhelm him on the strength department

Jokic cooks Gobert because he's way too smart when length isn't the be all and end all.

There was a game where Ben and Embiid caused a great deal stoppage along with Tucker. It's sad but Ben style wise is a brilliant match against Luka/Tatum/Older Bron and somehow Lillard. You could see Luka's oh sh*t face I cant do much in real time was funny asf.

But yeah ironically outside of Curry you do not under any circumstance let Jokic/Shaq Bron and Jordan dictate play inside. When it happens its a nightmare to slow down.

Funny Embiid doesn’t even guard Jokic that often. In reality Jokic guards Embiid more than Embiid guards Jokic. Embiid gets cooked when he has to guard jokic. Jokic just out runs him in transition and wears him out.

[AleksandarN]

I think white people want Jokic to be that guy ahead of Jordan even without the extra five rings and scoring stats.. he’s not even at Lebron status yet. Otherwise, why not elevate harden orSteph or Lebron?

No one is bringing in race into the conversation except you. There is a lot of people who aren’t white that are huge Jokic fans. Just to dismiss the argument because of race is in a way prejudice.

[ScrantonBulls]

No. The only position to get smaller and the defense against big centres weaker, is precisely at centre. He's playing against "worst" defenders because there are so many smallball centres and centres that just aren't that big that have to guard the perimeter.

The flipside to this is team defense is way more complex and dynamic than its ever been. There may be a lot of smaller fives but it's also pretty rare Jokic gets single coverage anywhere, let alone close to the basket.

Plus he generally cooks even the likes of Gobert and AD in the post if they try to guard him one on one. The idea that he'd have any resl trouble.in the 90s is pretty funny. He's a giant, physical man with magnificent touch and footwork.

Ah, the ever too complex for you to understand answer.

Yeah, sure. Shaq, Robinson, Hakeem etc. were never doubled. And they all got the benefit of a restricted area and gather step in the 90's.

Too complex for you to make even a slightly compelling argument as well apparently. The old "trust me bro" argument.

[ScrantonBulls]

Hmm I saw him get guarded pretty well in the playoffs last year on an individual level by a couple guys that weren’t great defenders, but knew his pet moves. The league doesn’t have, and he hadn’t seen many good post defenders, but it’s something to watch going forward. Teams are going to watch towns and Reid on tape and find new ways to defend him. Not saying it will work, there are other examples when teams figure a guy out and it goes to other teams

Here are the players i'd take over Jokic offensively.

MJ - enough said, 6 rings in 8 years.
Kareem - The inventor of the sky hook was the embodiment of unstoppable
Lebron - Similar post season stats, but Lebron slightly edges Jokic here and for much longer.

Peak Shaq - Not so much career, but the most unstoppable thing at his Peak


Debatable can go either way

Magic - Magic the better passer, Jokic the better scorer
Steph - Both are offensive systems in different ways

No argument against

KD - great scorer but won't elevate a team like Jokic
Harden - Mostly a regular season system
Kawhi - (would be fun to think 'if healthy') but Kawhi would still come up short
Embiid - doesn't have the passing, and isn't post season dominant, + injuries

Bird should be in the conversation

No, he shouldn't. That's your nostalgia speaking. I think there's a reason we haven't seen a good argument from you or others for Bird being the best offensive player. Guys like MJ, LeBron and Jokic are simply in another league compared to Bird. Hell, Giannis is clearly better than him offensively as well.

[Nate505]

I think white people want Jokic to be that guy ahead of Jordan even without the extra five rings and scoring stats.. he’s not even at Lebron status yet. Otherwise, why not elevate harden orSteph or Lebron?

No one is bringing in race into the conversation except you. There is a lot of people who aren’t white that are huge Jokic fans. Just to dismiss the argument because of race is in a way prejudice.

This is leaving me in a quandary. My pick is Jordan...but apparently I'm supposed to pick Jokic because he's white and I'm white, and it, uh, supposedly just makes sense.

[DCasey91]

So you front the 4, have a middle set and the big camp inside shutting off the driving lanes.

Still got to worry about post scoring/shooting, outside, trail 3's, pnr 2 man games can't let him run up free throws, all of the transition and broken plays, full court passes, Full Point Guard mode from the start of the action before passing halfcourt being a table setter, rebounding etc etc.

I mean dude's a wizard it's like cool we objectively have best practise... Huduhduh 3 ball in your face.

Gobert "I can guard him"
Jokic "Brother I have 45..."