The 'Jokic has no help' narrative sure came and went

[Exp0sed]

This isn’t true. Murray played like an all star in the playoffs in the 2019-2020 season in which they didn’t win. You could argue he played better this season than their championship run

I’m not disagreeing with you that he’s streaky. Definitely seems to be the case, but saying he scored under 20 points a certain amount of times is just odd to say. Looking at his game logs in the playoffs from 2020 he did some things that most guards would dream of

2 50 point games
2 40+ point games
50/45/90 through those measly 19 games

I think we’re basically saying the same thing. I just don’t think people give him enough respect. And I think a lot of that is used to prop up Jokic, which I don’t think he needs that

I don't think anyone disagrees that Murray had two seperate elite (some might even say: legendary) playoff runs. he was basically Kyrie on a good day, in both of those runs but he hasn't played at that level (or anywhere close) in any regular season and he hasn't always played like that in the playoffs either. last season for example vs. the Wolves, Murray averaged 18\4\4 on 40% from the field and 33% from 3 and was looking much closer to Cam Payne than to Kyrie

regardless of playoffs, Murray starts seasons very slow (he's usually a net negative for a couple of months) and that's a burden on the team that gets reflected in the win column.

he started this current season playing downright atrocious and he also requires load mangement, is injury prone, is a pretty low i.q player with questionable decision making and not a good defender, especially vs. bigger guards who abuse him on the regular and you get all that regular season mediocre package, on a max contract. that's an issue for sure.

those are all facts, I don't see how pointing them out is tantamount to "propping up Jokic", it's pretty simple - if Murray can show up in his superman Kyrie costume to the playoffs (like he has twice out of five playoff runs) - Nuggets are a contender

if he shows up like he did against the Wolves last season, they're likely a 2nd rd exit

[Ssj16]

This board is completely delusional about Jokic. The guy won an MVP as a freakin' 6 seed. He's flamed out of the playoffs every year except for one run when Murray played like an all-star. He's been to the WCF less than Luka has and he has MPJ and Murray as teammates. He's a great offensive engine that is a black hole on defense. He's Harden, but better on offense. Probably even worse on defense since he plays the most important defensive position in the game. He's can't compete without Murray putting up all-star numbers, and you see the result whenever Murray is injured or under-performing. The team tanks, but Jokic still gets his numbers. He doesn't have a killer mentality, he can't carry a team unless he's surrounded by talent, and he's one of the most boring players to ever watch. Can't wait until this guy retires so the real stars can finally get their due. He isn't winning another ring ever again. He's been lucky that the guy that's been competing against him in Embiid was one of the biggest superstar busts in history. Jokic looks good next to him.

Do you need some cope to go with that haterade.

Again, look at what Jokic did in the Olympics against team USA and get back to me.

[Ssj16]

This board is completely delusional about Jokic. The guy won an MVP as a freakin' 6 seed. He's flamed out of the playoffs every year except for one run when Murray played like an all-star. He's been to the WCF less than Luka has and he has MPJ and Murray as teammates. He's a great offensive engine that is a black hole on defense. He's Harden, but better on offense. Probably even worse on defense since he plays the most important defensive position in the game. He's can't compete without Murray putting up all-star numbers, and you see the result whenever Murray is injured or under-performing. The team tanks, but Jokic still gets his numbers. He doesn't have a killer mentality, he can't carry a team unless he's surrounded by talent, and he's one of the most boring players to ever watch. Can't wait until this guy retires so the real stars can finally get their due. He isn't winning another ring ever again. He's been lucky that the guy that's been competing against him in Embiid was one of the biggest superstar busts in history. Jokic looks good next to him.

1. He’s never had a teammate make an all-NBA team or all-star game.

2. He’s shattered records in the regular season and postseason.

3. He needed a teammate to play like an all-star to win a championship? What player doesn’t?

4. Jokic hasn’t really been competing against Embiid in the playoffs. He beat LeBron, AD, KAT, Gobert, Edwards, Booker, Durant, CP3, Dame, Mitchell, Kawhi, Paul George, ect. He looks great compared to every other player in the NBA.

5. He has been to the WCF twice, same number of times as Luka.

Why do you have to bring facts into it? It's better when we can make up false narratives

[KyRo23]

I’m not disagreeing with you that he’s streaky. Definitely seems to be the case, but saying he scored under 20 points a certain amount of times is just odd to say. Looking at his game logs in the playoffs from 2020 he did some things that most guards would dream of

2 50 point games
2 40+ point games
50/45/90 through those measly 19 games

I think we’re basically saying the same thing. I just don’t think people give him enough respect. And I think a lot of that is used to prop up Jokic, which I don’t think he needs that

I don't think anyone disagrees that Murray had two seperate elite (some might even say: legendary) playoff runs. he was basically Kyrie on a good day, in both of those runs but he hasn't played at that level (or anywhere close) in any regular season and he hasn't always played like that in the playoffs either. last season for example vs. the Wolves, Murray averaged 18\4\4 on 40% from the field and 33% from 3 and was looking much closer to Cam Payne than to Kyrie

regardless of playoffs, Murray starts seasons very slow (he's usually a net negative for a couple of months) and that's a burden on the team that gets reflected in the win column.

he started this current season playing downright atrocious and he also requires load mangement, is injury prone, is a pretty low i.q player with questionable decision making and not a good defender, especially vs. bigger guards who abuse him on the regular and you get all that regular season mediocre package, on a max contract. that's an issue for sure.

those are all facts, I don't see how pointing them out is tantamount to "propping up Jokic", it's pretty simple - if Murray can show up in his superman Kyrie costume to the playoffs (like he has twice out of five playoff runs) - Nuggets are a contender

if he shows up like he did against the Wolves last season, they're likely a 2nd rd exit

Well to be fair, they were a couple Murray plays last year away from maybe being a first round exit. What bothers me is using his sometimes poor history rather than how he actually played.

Dude had 2 amazing playoffs runs, better than most guards in the NBA right now and you still have people saying Jokic never played with an all star. The all star thing is true but does that really hold merit to anything?

The way people word it makes it seem like he’s never had legit help for any playoff run ever. I know you’re not one of those judging by this conversation, but I see it a lot.

[NO-KG-AI]

Lebron has like almost a decade and a half of teams with more than Jokic has ever had lmao.

[Handlez]

Playing with Jokic helps tremendously.

But yes, his teammates are absolutely balling right now.

They have enough to win the title.

[magee]

I don't know about "enough," but they're close. Still could use a better back-up than Jordan and Nnaji to fill those minutes Jokic is on the bench for.

[KyRo23]

Lebron has like almost a decade and a half of teams with more than Jokic has ever had lmao.

Well as fair as this is, LeBron has played for 12 more years than Jokic and Jokic has more help than LeBron did in his first Cleveland stint.

This isn’t that good of a comparison until Jokic’s career is over and we know who he had as a teammate for the entirety of it

[HMFFL]

Coach has increased MPJ's field goal attempts like I have been screaming for. It's about time!

MPJ needs to be second in shot attempts. He has taken time to get to this point but he's ready for the next level.

Sent from my SM-S928U1 using RealGM mobile app

[HMFFL]

Lebron has like almost a decade and a half of teams with more than Jokic has ever had lmao.

Well as fair as this is, LeBron has played for 12 more years than Jokic and Jokic has more help than LeBron did in his first Cleveland stint.

This isn’t that good of a comparison until Jokic’s career is over and we know who he had as a teammate for the entirety of it

Like Lebron, Jokic made all of them better. Jokic has a few unwanted spare parts on his team that he polished up.

Sent from my SM-S928U1 using RealGM mobile app

[NZB2323]

I’m not disagreeing with you that he’s streaky. Definitely seems to be the case, but saying he scored under 20 points a certain amount of times is just odd to say. Looking at his game logs in the playoffs from 2020 he did some things that most guards would dream of

2 50 point games
2 40+ point games
50/45/90 through those measly 19 games

I think we’re basically saying the same thing. I just don’t think people give him enough respect. And I think a lot of that is used to prop up Jokic, which I don’t think he needs that

I don't think anyone disagrees that Murray had two seperate elite (some might even say: legendary) playoff runs. he was basically Kyrie on a good day, in both of those runs but he hasn't played at that level (or anywhere close) in any regular season and he hasn't always played like that in the playoffs either. last season for example vs. the Wolves, Murray averaged 18\4\4 on 40% from the field and 33% from 3 and was looking much closer to Cam Payne than to Kyrie

regardless of playoffs, Murray starts seasons very slow (he's usually a net negative for a couple of months) and that's a burden on the team that gets reflected in the win column.

he started this current season playing downright atrocious and he also requires load mangement, is injury prone, is a pretty low i.q player with questionable decision making and not a good defender, especially vs. bigger guards who abuse him on the regular and you get all that regular season mediocre package, on a max contract. that's an issue for sure.

those are all facts, I don't see how pointing them out is tantamount to "propping up Jokic", it's pretty simple - if Murray can show up in his superman Kyrie costume to the playoffs (like he has twice out of five playoff runs) - Nuggets are a contender

if he shows up like he did against the Wolves last season, they're likely a 2nd rd exit

Well to be fair, they were a couple Murray plays last year away from maybe being a first round exit. What bothers me is using his sometimes poor history rather than how he actually played.

Dude had 2 amazing playoffs runs, better than most guards in the NBA right now and you still have people saying Jokic never played with an all star. The all star thing is true but does that really hold merit to anything?

The way people word it makes it seem like he’s never had legit help for any playoff run ever. I know you’re not one of those judging by this conversation, but I see it a lot.

I mean, Murray was injured in 2021 and 2022. In 2022 MPJ was injured and he’s never played like an all-star in the playoffs.

Murray has played well in the playoffs but I don’t know if I’d call him amazing. When the Nuggets won the championship Murray was 12th in WS/48 and 9th in PER.

People often cite Dirk in 2011 as a carry job, and in the playoffs Jet Terry was 10th in WS/48 and Tyson Chandler was 9th. Jet Terry was 14th in PER.

I mean, Jokic became the first player to lead all players in the playoffs in total points, rebounds, and assists. I wouldn’t say he’s had no help, but I also wouldn’t say he’s had help from teammates who play amazing. Jokic has been the amazing one.

[Ssj16]

As to the point of this thread, I give the Kroenke's a lot of credit for not succumbing to Malone's bull. And also, I give credit to Malone for actually playing the young guys once he saw it wasn't going to happen to trade them all for more seasoned vets. The Nuggets young players have talent. They aren't total scrubs. The coaching was letting them down because Malone was too busy being a Jokic merchant. However, as we've been finding out over the last two months, the front office (led by Booth) has actually made several good draft picks and these guys are long, athletic and can play.

Christian Braun is flat out better than KCP (at this stage in his career) and Bruce Brown. Peyton Watson is a better defender than both. Strawther, who I didn't even like coming out of Gonzaga, is absolutely a flame thrower from 3. Even Jalen Pickett, has done a 180 since his disastrous rookie year. Westbrook coming in, whether we want to also throw some credit to him as well, was a net positive. And it probably shows up more in the locker room and practice. The players on the team love him.

Fully agreed. I do feel that management could be more invested in the "now" rather than trying the 2 timeline thing like GS but that being said, Booth has shown he has a good track record of drafting young talent.

I was harsh on Malone earlier during the season but he seems to be figuring things out so I have to give him credit.

[Chuck Everett]

I don't think anyone disagrees that Murray had two seperate elite (some might even say: legendary) playoff runs. he was basically Kyrie on a good day, in both of those runs but he hasn't played at that level (or anywhere close) in any regular season and he hasn't always played like that in the playoffs either. last season for example vs. the Wolves, Murray averaged 18\4\4 on 40% from the field and 33% from 3 and was looking much closer to Cam Payne than to Kyrie

regardless of playoffs, Murray starts seasons very slow (he's usually a net negative for a couple of months) and that's a burden on the team that gets reflected in the win column.

he started this current season playing downright atrocious and he also requires load mangement, is injury prone, is a pretty low i.q player with questionable decision making and not a good defender, especially vs. bigger guards who abuse him on the regular and you get all that regular season mediocre package, on a max contract. that's an issue for sure.

those are all facts, I don't see how pointing them out is tantamount to "propping up Jokic", it's pretty simple - if Murray can show up in his superman Kyrie costume to the playoffs (like he has twice out of five playoff runs) - Nuggets are a contender

if he shows up like he did against the Wolves last season, they're likely a 2nd rd exit

Well to be fair, they were a couple Murray plays last year away from maybe being a first round exit. What bothers me is using his sometimes poor history rather than how he actually played.

Dude had 2 amazing playoffs runs, better than most guards in the NBA right now and you still have people saying Jokic never played with an all star. The all star thing is true but does that really hold merit to anything?

The way people word it makes it seem like he’s never had legit help for any playoff run ever. I know you’re not one of those judging by this conversation, but I see it a lot.

I mean, Murray was injured in 2021 and 2022. In 2022 MPJ was injured and he’s never played like an all-star in the playoffs.

Murray has played well in the playoffs but I don’t know if I’d call him amazing. When the Nuggets won the championship Murray was 12th in WS/48 and 9th in PER.

People often cite Dirk in 2011 as a carry job, and in the playoffs Jet Terry was 10th in WS/48 and Tyson Chandler was 9th. Jet Terry was 14th in PER.

I mean, Jokic became the first player to lead all players in the playoffs in total points, rebounds, and assists. I wouldn’t say he’s had no help, but I also wouldn’t say he’s had help from teammates who play amazing. Jokic has been the amazing one.

This seems weird. Some want to crown Jokic as the best player in the world (I believe he is), but also want him to play on overwhelmingly stacked teams as well? Is it a domination thing or what? He may not have "all-stars" but would having Demar Derozan and Paul George or say Caron Butler been better than having Murray and Porter Jr? I am honestly not sure. Some of these guys are regular season giants and that's it with them.

Sometimes we get too hung up on the names. Zach Lavine's an all-star and so was Vucevic, but what does that really mean? Neither guy helps you win anything meaningful.

[NO-KG-AI]

Lebron has like almost a decade and a half of teams with more than Jokic has ever had lmao.

Well as fair as this is, LeBron has played for 12 more years than Jokic and Jokic has more help than LeBron did in his first Cleveland stint.

This isn’t that good of a comparison until Jokic’s career is over and we know who he had as a teammate for the entirety of it

Jokic’s team is better than the whole first Cleveland run to be fair lol

[Ssj16]

Coach has increased MPJ's field goal attempts like I have been screaming for. It's about time!

MPJ needs to be second in shot attempts. He has taken time to get to this point but he's ready for the next level.

Sent from my SM-S928U1 using RealGM mobile app

In the regular season yes. But in the playoffs, let Murray cook.

[dautjazz]

Murray and MPJ are inconsistent, a 10 game sample doesn't mean necessarily that you're right.

[MarcusBrody]

I’m not disagreeing with you that he’s streaky. Definitely seems to be the case, but saying he scored under 20 points a certain amount of times is just odd to say. Looking at his game logs in the playoffs from 2020 he did some things that most guards would dream of

2 50 point games
2 40+ point games
50/45/90 through those measly 19 games

I think we’re basically saying the same thing. I just don’t think people give him enough respect. And I think a lot of that is used to prop up Jokic, which I don’t think he needs that

I don't think anyone disagrees that Murray had two seperate elite (some might even say: legendary) playoff runs. he was basically Kyrie on a good day, in both of those runs but he hasn't played at that level (or anywhere close) in any regular season and he hasn't always played like that in the playoffs either. last season for example vs. the Wolves, Murray averaged 18\4\4 on 40% from the field and 33% from 3 and was looking much closer to Cam Payne than to Kyrie

regardless of playoffs, Murray starts seasons very slow (he's usually a net negative for a couple of months) and that's a burden on the team that gets reflected in the win column.

he started this current season playing downright atrocious and he also requires load mangement, is injury prone, is a pretty low i.q player with questionable decision making and not a good defender, especially vs. bigger guards who abuse him on the regular and you get all that regular season mediocre package, on a max contract. that's an issue for sure.

those are all facts, I don't see how pointing them out is tantamount to "propping up Jokic", it's pretty simple - if Murray can show up in his superman Kyrie costume to the playoffs (like he has twice out of five playoff runs) - Nuggets are a contender

if he shows up like he did against the Wolves last season, they're likely a 2nd rd exit

Well to be fair, they were a couple Murray plays last year away from maybe being a first round exit. What bothers me is using his sometimes poor history rather than how he actually played.

Dude had 2 amazing playoffs runs, better than most guards in the NBA right now and you still have people saying Jokic never played with an all star. The all star thing is true but does that really hold merit to anything?

The way people word it makes it seem like he’s never had legit help for any playoff run ever. I know you’re not one of those judging by this conversation, but I see it a lot.

They weren't close to being a first round exit. They won that series 4-1 and both of Murray's game winners were with the score tied, not the Nuggets down.

I don't think we really disagree. I just don't think many people say Jokic has never had legit help in the playoffs. Almost everyone I've ever discussed basketball with on here or elsewhere has recognized that Murray played extremely well in 2020 and 2023. It's explaining why the Nuggets never threaten to be a 65 win team.

But even in the 2020 playoffs(which I think was the most notable), his averages for his legendary run were below the nightly numbers of the top Western conference guards (scoring is above Chris Paul, but he was impactful in different ways). There are just too many mediocre games averaged in with the great ones for him to be considered quite on that level. Combine that with that 1. He's never gotten within 5 points of those averages over the larger sample of the regular season 2. He's averaged 46 games a season over the last 5 years (58 if you take out the year he totally missed). Murray hits some amazing highs, but he is out a lot and even when he is there, he doesn't quite hit the level of the best second stars we've seen.

In my mind, he needs to really up/add one more element of his game to get there. His scoring volume is totally fine beside Jokic (especially now that Jokic is more willing to look to score more regularly). He just needs to add one non-Jokic element that he's really good at, be it primary playmaking, finding a real defensive niche, etc.. I have more hope for the former. Having Russ on the team has highlighted Murray's deficiencies in certain areas, but I hope it also helps him pick up some things. I'd love if he could become a better entry passer, for instance (though that violates my non-Jokic element clause).

[canada_dry]

Murray has been much better the last 30 games. Super necessary for the Nuggets chances.

The narrative of no help needs to die.

His FO are still morons though. 2 things can be true

[KGtabake]

The X player has no help is one of the dumbest things ever said for any player except Kobe Bryant in the middle '00s.
Take a look at the rosters Lakers put together back then and then compare them to the rosters of today or the rosters some of the league's best players had to work with ever since.

LeBron at his first stint with the Cavs had Ilgauskas who was a player greatly disrespected and underappreciated in here.
Nowitzki in 2011 had guys like Marion, Terry. AllStars? No but we all know that a guy like Marion in particular deserved far more recognition than the one he got.
Durant played with peak Westbrook on the Thunder.
Giannis in 2021 had Middleton who at his peak was a cold killer.
Luka last season had Kyrie who was more mature and grounded than ever.
Embiid has played with Butler and Harden among others.
Harden had Chris Paul and a greatly constructed roster on the Rockets.

I always laugh with these takes.
Things like that are being said by fanboys who want to elevate a particular player. They're not fans of the teams the X player plays for.

Murray is a proven playoffs performer and one bad run doesn't change that.
Porter Jr is way overpaid and injury prone but his skills were never in doubt.
Gordon is probably the most ideal PF to pair with Jokic.
Is Denver's FO ideal(or pretty good or whatever)?
No but that doesn't mean they're completely ****.
It's the same FO that landed the franchise it's first championship.

[NZB2323]

Well to be fair, they were a couple Murray plays last year away from maybe being a first round exit. What bothers me is using his sometimes poor history rather than how he actually played.

Dude had 2 amazing playoffs runs, better than most guards in the NBA right now and you still have people saying Jokic never played with an all star. The all star thing is true but does that really hold merit to anything?

The way people word it makes it seem like he’s never had legit help for any playoff run ever. I know you’re not one of those judging by this conversation, but I see it a lot.

I mean, Murray was injured in 2021 and 2022. In 2022 MPJ was injured and he’s never played like an all-star in the playoffs.

Murray has played well in the playoffs but I don’t know if I’d call him amazing. When the Nuggets won the championship Murray was 12th in WS/48 and 9th in PER.

People often cite Dirk in 2011 as a carry job, and in the playoffs Jet Terry was 10th in WS/48 and Tyson Chandler was 9th. Jet Terry was 14th in PER.

I mean, Jokic became the first player to lead all players in the playoffs in total points, rebounds, and assists. I wouldn’t say he’s had no help, but I also wouldn’t say he’s had help from teammates who play amazing. Jokic has been the amazing one.

This seems weird. Some want to crown Jokic as the best player in the world (I believe he is), but also want him to play on overwhelmingly stacked teams as well? Is it a domination thing or what? He may not have "all-stars" but would having Demar Derozan and Paul George or say Caron Butler been better than having Murray and Porter Jr? I am honestly not sure. Some of these guys are regular season giants and that's it with them.

Sometimes we get too hung up on the names. Zach Lavine's an all-star and so was Vucevic, but what does that really mean? Neither guy helps you win anything meaningful.

What if we compare Murray and Porter to supporting players that played with other top 15 players?

Jordan: Pippen, Grant, and Rodman
Lebron: Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Love, Anthony Davis, and Luka
Kareem: Oscar Robertson, Magic, and Worthy
Magic: Kareem and Worthy
Bird: Parish, McHale, DJ
Wilt: Nate Thurmond, Hal Greer, Billy Cunningham, Jerry West, Elgin Baylor
Russell: Cousy, Havlicek, Sharman
Duncan: Robinson, Ginobili, Parker, Kawhi
Shaq: Penny, Horace Grant, Kobe, Wade
Kobe: Shaq, Gasol
Hakeem: Sampson, Drexler, Barkley, Pippen
Curry: Green, Klay, KD, Wiggins, Butler
West: Baylor, Wilt
Robinson: Kareem