All-NBA discussion

[BadWolf]

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Shai has no gravity?

[tsherkin]

Harden was questionable as an All-star selection. No way he should get any consideration for all-NBA even with many players being ineligible.

Curry-Mitchell-Cunningham-Brunson-Edwards-SGA are likely to be the 6 guards selected. Then you have guys like Haliburton, J Brown, and Garland who would def be in front of Harden.

Jaylen Brown?

Brown is averaging 22/6/4.5 on 55.5 TS%.

Harden is averaging 23/8/6 on 58 TS%.

Just stop.

Yeah, I don't see Jaylen Brown as a good choice. But Trae Young is a competitive option by actual play.

[Godymas]

i have a really hard time giving Curry the 1st team nod over Ant

Ant basically has the same averages as curry but on greater volume with a slight dip in FT rate.

I'd also consider Ant the better defender

[bisme37]

Jaylen Brown is no longer eligible. He's going to come up a couple games short of the 65 game threshold.

[tsherkin]

i have a really hard time giving Curry the 1st team nod over Ant

Ant basically has the same averages as curry but on greater volume with a slight dip in FT rate.

I'd also consider Ant the better defender

Steph: 24.4 ppg, 4.4 rpg, 6.0 apg, league-best 93.1% FT, leads the league in both 3PM/g and 3PA/g at 4.4 and 11.2. 61.6% TS (107 TS+), +6.3 OBPM, .170 WS/48, third in the league with +6.1 O-EPM.

Ant: 27.4 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 4.5 apg, 59.4% TS (103 TS+), +4.3 OBPM, .137 WS/48, +3.5 O-EPM

Any isn't really anywhere near what Steph's still doing as an offensive player.

[Tnasty4l]

1st Team: SGA Mitchell Jokic Tatum Giannis
2nd Team:: Hali Ant Kat LeBron JJJ
3rd TEAM: Cade Harden Mobley Siakam JDub

[NBA4Lyfe]

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Shai has no gravity?

dont come at me, i didnt make the list

[NBA4Lyfe]

i never believed in the media saying luka was an "improved" defender or that jokic was the best pick and roll defender either but the media used the stats on bbref as their argument and jokic has 3 or 4 mvps because of it

Jokic doesn't have MVPs because of defensive win shares.

how does luka have 5 first team all nba selections including a 1st team selection even after missing the playoffs. how the hell does jokic win the mvp as a 6th seed and not only that, but gets no pushback for losing in the first round like dirk did back in 2007

Jokic does get push back. And Luka is statistically similar to what Harden was when he was making the All-NBA teams. He has a half-dozen All-NBA 1st Team selections, and a third team selection beyond that. When he was good enough, he was making the team.

are you saying the voters have an inherit bias againist certain players and can punish players like harden from meeting requirements of getting huge contracts

No. Nothing I said even remotely approaches that.

What I am saying, however, is that Harden is shooting like absolute dog crap and not scoring as much as he once did, so his overall offensive impact isn't dominant, and his team's offense reflects that. The team is winning primarily on the back of defense, and he isn't a high-end defender at all.

This is basic stuff.

explain 2016, 2021,2022,2023

these legacy comparisons are never in favor of harden simply because the nba media is bias ( i know why and its nothing to do with race), so when people say wade has more all-star, all nba selections than harden, i tune those people out.. harden at 35 is better than wade was at 35.. will you argue that too?

[NBA4Lyfe]

i never believed in the media saying luka was an "improved" defender or that jokic was the best pick and roll defender either but the media used the stats on bbref as their argument and jokic has 3 or 4 mvps because of it

Jokic doesn't have MVPs because of defensive win shares.

how does luka have 5 first team all nba selections including a 1st team selection even after missing the playoffs. how the hell does jokic win the mvp as a 6th seed and not only that, but gets no pushback for losing in the first round like dirk did back in 2007

Jokic does get push back. And Luka is statistically similar to what Harden was when he was making the All-NBA teams. He has a half-dozen All-NBA 1st Team selections, and a third team selection beyond that. When he was good enough, he was making the team.

are you saying the voters have an inherit bias againist certain players and can punish players like harden from meeting requirements of getting huge contracts

No. Nothing I said even remotely approaches that.

What I am saying, however, is that Harden is shooting like absolute dog crap and not scoring as much as he once did, so his overall offensive impact isn't dominant, and his team's offense reflects that. The team is winning primarily on the back of defense, and he isn't a high-end defender at all.

This is basic stuff.

jokic has benefited the greatest from bpm 2.0, because he is a center that accumlates a lot of assist, it inflates his defensive box plus minus, there was a twitter/x account that explained it in detail. i think i bookmarked it, once i find it ill post it, but essentially jokic and bpm 2.0 is like a match made in heaven. What i wish bbref would do is if they are not gonna restore bpm 1.0, then at least give the buyers an option to pay for the bpm 1.0 stat so we can judge and compare how different the players would be ranked not just from the past but in the present.. in short i wanna see which players are hurt from the switch to bpm 1.0 to bpm 2.0 it would help gauge players better.

[NBA4Lyfe]

i have a really hard time giving Curry the 1st team nod over Ant

Ant basically has the same averages as curry but on greater volume with a slight dip in FT rate.

I'd also consider Ant the better defender

Steph: 24.4 ppg, 4.4 rpg, 6.0 apg, league-best 93.1% FT, leads the league in both 3PM/g and 3PA/g at 4.4 and 11.2. 61.6% TS (107 TS+), +6.3 OBPM, .170 WS/48, third in the league with +6.1 O-EPM.

Ant: 27.4 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 4.5 apg, 59.4% TS (103 TS+), +4.3 OBPM, .137 WS/48, +3.5 O-EPM

Any isn't really anywhere near what Steph's still doing as an offensive player.

steph was saved by a jimmy butler miracle trade, had that trade not happened.. where would the warriors be

the clippers only added bogi, but prior to that the clippers were doing just fine.

[NBA4Lyfe]

i have a really hard time giving Curry the 1st team nod over Ant

Ant basically has the same averages as curry but on greater volume with a slight dip in FT rate.

I'd also consider Ant the better defender

bruh the nba media voted steph for mvp despite missing the playoffs completely in 2021 lol. there is no criteria, if the voters like you enough theyll vote for you. these guys are basically affecting players salaries in real time smh

curry finished top 3 in voting in fact smh..

[tsherkin]

steph was saved by a jimmy butler miracle trade, had that trade not happened.. where would the warriors be

the clippers only added bogi, but prior to that the clippers were doing just fine.

Steph has been playing well all year. Shocker, improving the team made everything easier. Amazing how that works.

explain 2016, 2021,2022,2023

Westbrook comes to mind for 2016. It was also the last few years of Chris Paul's All-NBA relevance, with a little Lob City resurgence in LAC. And one of two All-NBA appearances from Klay Thompson.

As for 2021 and later, he simply wasn't good enough. His personal impact level had dropped off enough that he didn't merit it any longer, raw box score numbers notwithstanding. Also, he played 44 games in 2021, which contributed as well.

so when people say wade has more all-star, all nba selections than harden, i tune those people out.. harden at 35 is better than wade was at 35.. will you argue that too?

Why are we talking about Wade at 35? He last made an All-NBA Team at 31. His AS selection at 37 in his final season was as BS as it was for Kareem in 89 or Kobe's last three seasons, though, certainly.

jokic has benefited the greatest from bpm 2.0, because he is a center that accumlates a lot of assist, it inflates his defensive box plus minus, there was a twitter/x account that explained it in detail. i think i bookmarked it, once i find it ill post it, but essentially jokic and bpm 2.0 is like a match made in heaven. What i wish bbref would do is if they are not gonna restore bpm 1.0, then at least give the buyers an option to pay for the bpm 1.0 stat so we can judge and compare how different the players would be ranked not just from the past but in the present.. in short i wanna see which players are hurt from the switch to bpm 1.0 to bpm 2.0 it would help gauge players better.

BPM has not been the primary driver of Jokic's MVP selections. I will entertain no further discussion on that subject, because it is simply too daft.

[f4p]

i never believed in the media saying luka was an "improved" defender or that jokic was the best pick and roll defender either but the media used the stats on bbref as their argument and jokic has 3 or 4 mvps because of it

Jokic doesn't have MVPs because of defensive win shares.

how does luka have 5 first team all nba selections including a 1st team selection even after missing the playoffs. how the hell does jokic win the mvp as a 6th seed and not only that, but gets no pushback for losing in the first round like dirk did back in 2007

Jokic does get push back. And Luka is statistically similar to what Harden was when he was making the All-NBA teams. He has a half-dozen All-NBA 1st Team selections, and a third team selection beyond that. When he was good enough, he was making the team.

are you saying the voters have an inherit bias againist certain players and can punish players like harden from meeting requirements of getting huge contracts

No. Nothing I said even remotely approaches that.

What I am saying, however, is that Harden is shooting like absolute dog crap and not scoring as much as he once did, so his overall offensive impact isn't dominant, and his team's offense reflects that. The team is winning primarily on the back of defense, and he isn't a high-end defender at all.

This is basic stuff.

Hmm, hardens team has the 16th ranked offense and stephs has the 15th ranked offense but one can't be on an all NBA team but the other should be 1st team. I guess that one spot on the rankings makes all the difference.

And I've never understood this dividing a team into offense and defense stuff and giving credit to the guys who are apparently offensive guys for the offense and defensive guys for the defense.

Whether harden should be on an all NBA team (probably should with how many guys aren't qualified ), the clippers win with defense so harden can't really be contributing makes no sense. If hes floor raising a terrible offensie squad to decent offense while not being enough of a defensive problem that he can't lead the team in minutes while they are 3rd in defense, that would seem to be good.

And again, the 2021 warriors were 20th in offense and 5th in defense and missed the playoffs. Guess offensive star Steph was left off the all NBA squad? Nope, 1st team and damn near MVP, finishing 3rd. 2022? Warriors 17th in offense and 1st in defense, a team winning on defense even more than the clippers. With down stats across the board for Steph. Makes 2nd team. Now this year, 15th in offense, 7th in defense, basically same record as clippers but a 3 month long disaster class team before Butler showed up, apparently Steph needs to be rewarded with a 1st team but harden should be left off with his terrible 16th offense because Kris dunn is too good at defense.

[f4p]

Harden was questionable as an All-star selection. No way he should get any consideration for all-NBA even with many players being ineligible.

Curry-Mitchell-Cunningham-Brunson-Edwards-SGA are likely to be the 6 guards selected. Then you have guys like Haliburton, J Brown, and Garland who would def be in front of Harden.

Edwards has been basically identical to harden all season long.

Like literally. 19.9 PER vs 19.8 PER. 0.137 WS48 vs 0.141 for harden. Both exactly 4.2 BPM. Teams with basically same record. Except harden is actually +4.2 on/off and Edwards is -2.0 on/off.

[zimpy27]

1st team: SGA, Mitchell, Tatum, Giannis, Jokic
2nd team: Hali, Curry, LeBron, Mobley, Sengun
3rd team: Cade, Harden, Ant, Sabonis, KAT

[MrBigShot]

Cade has to be a lock.

Led us to a 30 win increase and has been absolutely unreal post all star break: 28/8/5 on 51/37/84 splits, helping us to secure a non play-in position.

[flranger]

RE: Harden

I don't see how people can't understand when a player has been a bitch for at least half of the last six years, that if it's at least remotely close people will not pick the less controversial/more attractive alternative.

He's good. Everyone gets it. When it is close voters prefer the alternative to malcontents. So does the rest of society, including at your employer.

[tsherkin]

Hmm, hardens team has the 16th ranked offense and stephs has the 15th ranked offense but one can't be on an all NBA team but the other should be 1st team. I guess that one spot on the rankings makes all the difference.

WEll, the one spot and the individual markers for offensive impact..

And I've never understood this dividing a team into offense and defense stuff and giving credit to the guys who are apparently offensive guys for the offense and defensive guys for the defense.

Well, if you're winning because of your defense and your offense isn't very good, that seems an obvious thing. Yes, if you directly removed him, then they wouldn't be the same on offense, but it's still fairly replaceable stuff.

If Harden's impact stats on offense looked a little better this season, we'd have a little more to talk about, but they aren't. He's not scoring well enough, nor in sufficient volume that his mediocre efficiency is sufficient to drive that level of overall impact to merit an All-NBA selection. As I've already noted.

[DonaldSanders]

1st: Jokic, Shai, Giannis, Mitchell, Tatum
2nd: Curry, Ant, Zubac, Harden, Mobley
3rd: J Will, Cade, JJJ, Brunson, Amen Thompson

I'm surprised I don't see Amen Thompson much, seems to have a huge impact on games when I watch, backed by stats.

There’s absolutely zero case for leaving LeBron off all-NBA this year. None. And you can’t pretend you’re the objective one here either when you make comments about lebron “being a total liability on defense.” He’s been outstanding defensively this season.

LeBron is #70 in EPM and his team has done better when he's off the court. LeBron making All-NBA would be silly.

[NBA4Lyfe]

RE: Harden

I don't see how people can't understand when a player has been a bitch for at least half of the last six years, that if it's at least remotely close people will not pick the less controversial/more attractive alternative.

He's good. Everyone gets it. When it is close voters prefer the alternative to malcontents. So does the rest of society, including at your employer.

harden was not a bitch in 2016.. and the voters still screwed him.. find another excuse

like i said im pretty sure i know why they screw him, and i will not use race as an excuse.. its more of an old-skool ignorant way of rating players and hardens style breaking the mold as its weird to a lot of people