The EuroLeague's GOAT Vote: All-Time Top 25 Players Ranked From #1 (Vassilis Spanoulis) To #25 (Kostas Sloukas)

[pepe1991]

With all due respect, only question is: Dražen Petrović or Toni Kukoć.

Due what he did and with how small and irrelevant team he did it, Toni Kukoć is only Euroleague GOAT.

Jugoplastika, team from city that at times had around 180 000 people at most, from country that was falling apart into a first war on Europien ground since World War 2, with zero foreign players and two boys from home town won 3 Euroleagues in a row, in 1989, 1990 and 1991. It's not that they won it, they destroyed everybody on their path.

Toni was final 4- MVP - 3 times in a row. After him and Jugoplastika, only 3 teams won back to back titles since. Nobody tripled.

Show me another Euroleague player that did what Toni did. There simply isn't such player. Šarūnas Jasikevičius? He won 3 Euroleagues in a row by changing team. And he is yet another player from list of people who couldn't keep up with speed to play in nba, years after Divac, Rada, Drazen, Toni already carved the path.


Dražen was pretty much Jordan- level unguardable for Euruopien basketball. Guy averaged 37 ppg in national championship, won two Euroleagues, won first Jugoslavian championship at age of 16 (but political reasons took away title ). Yugoslavia had best basketball league in those years in the world. Case and point- from 1980- 1992- 6 times Euroleague champion was from Yugoslavia.
Dražen had streak over 4 years in Europien competitions where he averaged 33 ppg.

Both influenced game more than Vassilis Spanoulis. Dražen made game perimeter oriented and was scoring menace, Toni was 6'10 guard and walking mismatch.
Both were more important for international crossover of Euro players to NBA .
Both had important nba careers, unlike Llull or DeColo ( or Spanoulis or Šarunas ).
Both had HUGE impact on national teams ( unlike their countryman Vujčić who is often mentioned ).
Both are in basketball HOF.




From Greece fans POV, i would rank Theodoros Papaloukas over Spanolis. From talent pov, Bodiroga was above half of people here mentioned.

Cradle of basketball in Europe is Yugoslavia, weather somebody likes it or not. To this date it's still the same. Doncic, Jokić are just latest instalments of very long history. History goes all the way back to Radivoj Korać and Kresimic Cosic and 1960s.

[Mirotic12]

League tiers between NBA, Euroleague, and other leagues around the world are not clearly defined, which was the discussion. Neither that nor tiers veteran players in the leagues are clearly defined. You waited over a month to answer something completely different from the conversation we were having lol. I genuinely can’t tell if you are trolling or really can’t track the conversation but think you did.

Tiers of worldwide international basketball leagues:

Tier 1.

National Basketball Association (NBA)

Tier 2.

EuroLeague

Tier 3.

EuroCup Basketball
FIBA Basketball Champions League
Liga ACB (Spain)

Tier 4.

Greek Basketball League (Greece)
Lega Basket Serie A (Italy)
LNB Pro A (France)
Basketboll Super Ligi (Turkey)
ABA League First Division (Adriatic League)
VTB United League (Russia)
Basketball Bundesliga (Germany)
Israeli Premier Basketball League (Israel)
Lietuvos Krepsinio Lyga (Lithuania)
National Basketball League (Australia)
FIBA Basketball Champions League Americas
FIBA Europe Cup

Tier 5.

FIBA South American League
Novo Basquete Brasil (Brazil)
Liga Nacional Basquetbol (Argentina)
Baloncesto Superior Nacional (Puerto Rico)

Tier 6.

NBA G League
Polska Liga Koszykowki (Poland)
BNXT League (Belgium & Netherlands)
LNBM (Romania)
National Basketball League (New Zealand)

Tier 7.

Chinese Basketball Association (China) Basketball 1 League (Japan)
Philippine Basketball Association (Philippines)

[Myth]

League tiers between NBA, Euroleague, and other leagues around the world are not clearly defined, which was the discussion. Neither that nor tiers veteran players in the leagues are clearly defined. You waited over a month to answer something completely different from the conversation we were having lol. I genuinely can’t tell if you are trolling or really can’t track the conversation but think you did.

Tiers of worldwide international basketball leagues:

Tier 1.

National Basketball Association (NBA)

Tier 2.

EuroLeague

Tier 3.

EuroCup Basketball
FIBA Basketball Champions League
Liga ACB (Spain)

Tier 4.

Greek Basketball League (Greece)
Lega Basket Serie A (Italy)
LNB Pro A (France)
Basketboll Super Ligi (Turkey)
ABA League First Division (Adriatic League)
VTB United League (Russia)
Basketball Bundesliga (Germany)
Israeli Premier Basketball League (Israel)
Lietuvos Krepsinio Lyga (Lithuania)
National Basketball League (Australia)
FIBA Basketball Champions League Americas
FIBA Europe Cup

Tier 5.

FIBA South American League
Novo Basquete Brasil (Brazil)
Liga Nacional Basquetbol (Argentina)
Baloncesto Superior Nacional (Puerto Rico)

Tier 6.

NBA G League
Polska Liga Koszykowki (Poland)
BNXT League (Belgium & Netherlands)
LNBM (Romania)
National Basketball League (New Zealand)

Tier 7.

Chinese Basketball Association (China) Basketball 1 League (Japan)
Philippine Basketball Association (Philippines)

Cool. Now share the source that indicates that these are clearly defined as you said and not just a subjective opinion.

[Mirotic12]

Due what he did and with how small and irrelevant team he did it, Toni Kukoć is only Euroleague GOAT.

Jugoplastika, team from city that at times had around 180 000 people at most, from country that was falling apart into a first war on Europien ground since World War 2, with zero foreign players and two boys from home town won 3 Euroleagues in a row, in 1989, 1990 and 1991. It's not that they won it, they destroyed everybody on their path.

Toni was final 4- MVP - 3 times in a row. After him and Jugoplastika, only 3 teams won back to back titles since. Nobody tripled.

Show me another Euroleague player that did what Toni did. There simply isn't such player. Šarūnas Jasikevičius? He won 3 Euroleagues in a row by changing team. And he is yet another player from list of people who couldn't keep up with speed to play in nba, years after Divac, Rada, Drazen, Toni already carved the path.

Toni Kukoc didn't win three straight EuroLeague Final Four MVPs. He won it in 1990, 1991, and in 1993. His Split teammate, Dino Radja, won it in 1989. So Kukoc didn't win three Final Four MVPs in a row, and he didn't win it each time on his own team.

Also, the EuroLeague Final Four MVP that Kukoc won in 1993 is an asterisk Final Four MVP award. Because his team at the time, Treviso, didn't win the EuroLeague championship. They lost in the EuroLeague Final to Limoges.

Kukoc got the Final Four MVP award, even though his team lost in the championship game. The vote for the Final Four MVP was held before the game ended, and it was a controversy when Kukoc got the award over Jure Zdovc and Michael Young from the winning Limoges team.

It was the first time a player from the losing team got the Final Four MVP award. After that, they changed the rules, so that the MVP could only come from the winning team.

So in reality, Kukoc really had two legit Final Four MVPs, and one asterisk illegitimate Final Four MVP.

As far as Kukoc winning the three EuroLeague championships with Split is concerned, that was one of the most ridiculously stacked teams in EuroLeague history. It had great coaches and players, and was without any doubt or question at all, by far and away the most stacked, deepest, and most talented team in the EuroLeague at that time. It's not even debatable either.

So all three of Kukoc's EuroLeague championships were won with the clear cut best, deepest, and most talented team in Europe. And he wasn't the clear leader of those first two championship teams either. As Dino Radja was equally important to the team's first two titles and was Final Four MVP on one of them. And over those two years, Radja was the team's first option on offense.

Then when Kukoc was playing on Treviso, that team also had the most expensive roster in Europe at the time. With the most expensive roster, he made the EuroLeague finals, but lost in the championship game.

The difference between those Split teams and Treviso, was that Treviso was a stacked and deep team for the time, while Split was a stacked and deep team for all of history, and is still universally considered to be one of the most stacked EuroLeague teams ever.

So, Kukoc won 3 EuroLeague championships, all of them with one of the most stacked teams ever, and the by far and away most stacked team at the time.

He won 2 of the 3 EuroLeague Final Four MVPs from those championships, with Dino Radja winning the other one. He was one of a two headed beast on that team, along with Radja, and it was a debate as to who was the best player of the team.

On the 1989 EuroLeague championship team:

Dino Radja - 18.6 PPG (MVP)
Toni Kukoc - 14.3 PPG

On the 1990 EuroLeague championship team:

Toni Kukoc - 17.9 PPG (MVP)
Dino Radja - 17.3 PPG

Kukoc also made another EuroLeague final, while playing on the most stacked team of the time (Treviso), and lost in the final to an underdog team (Limoges), in what is considered to be one of the biggest upsets ever in EuroLeague history.

Toni Kukoc's EuroLeague career:

4 EuroLeague Finals appearances (all on the most stacked teams in the league).
3 EuroLeague championships won (all on an all time stacked team).
2 EuroLeague championships won as one of the two best players on the team.
1 EuroLeague championship won as the best player on the team.
The EuroLeague Final he lost was one of the greatest upset losses in EuroLeague history.

2 legit EuroLeague Final Four MVPs.
1 eligitamite EuroLeague Final Four MVP (in the current era, he would have been disqualified and ineligible for the EuroLeague Final Four MVP award).

It's certainly good enough to be considered one of the all time great EuroLeague players. But that's not enough to be considered the EuroLeague GOAT. Several players had better EuroLeague careers than that.

[pepe1991]

Toni literally won 1991 Euroleague after both Rađa and Ivanović were gone to play in Italy. Pretty damn impressive.

Calling Jugoplastika team "stacked" is silly. 4/5 starters were local boys + almost entire bench was from locals. All were born in Split, Jugoplastika's city, with population of hardly 200 000 people. Barcelona alone had population of what, near 4 million people + at one point their coach was non other than Bozo Maljković - former Jugoplastika coach.

During their first two title runs, Jugoplastika didn't have single foreign player.


Bottom line, Toni Kukoć achieved 3-peat with born city that has population of two hoods of Paris, and did it with pretty much buddies from youth basketball team.
For his case for Euroleague GOAT, aside from titles, MVP awards , he also changed perception of size. 6'10- ball on the floor, face up, shooting over defenders, playmaking.
From impact POV- he is only player i know that won Euroleague, NBA, olympic medal, World cup medal and Eurobasket medal ( + won national leagues in Italy and Yugoslavia and national cups in both places).


How GREAT Kukoć really was? Well, national finals , 1991, verge of war, rivality between Partisan & Yugoplastika is boiling up and splitting over basketball, and Toni is getting standing ovations in middle of Serbia as Jugoplastika (POP) is taking another title. 4th in a row. That's also important to add. Yugoslavia had probably strongest league of that era in Europe. Toni's Jugoplastika won 4 in a row


Who in your mind had greater career than him ?

[LuDux1]

Cradle of basketball in Europe is Yugoslavia, weather somebody likes it or not. To this date it's still the same. Doncic, Jokić are just latest instalments of very long history. History goes all the way back to Radivoj Korać and Kresimic Cosic and 1960s.

I agree with sentiment, more or less, but not wording. Maybe "midwife", "nursery" or "breeding ground"?

I mean Latvia won first Eurobasket in 1935 with local players

[zimpy27]

League tiers between NBA, Euroleague, and other leagues around the world are not clearly defined, which was the discussion. Neither that nor tiers veteran players in the leagues are clearly defined. You waited over a month to answer something completely different from the conversation we were having lol. I genuinely can’t tell if you are trolling or really can’t track the conversation but think you did.

Tiers of worldwide international basketball leagues:

Tier 1.

National Basketball Association (NBA)

Tier 2.

EuroLeague

Tier 3.

EuroCup Basketball
FIBA Basketball Champions League
Liga ACB (Spain)

Tier 4.

Greek Basketball League (Greece)
Lega Basket Serie A (Italy)
LNB Pro A (France)
Basketboll Super Ligi (Turkey)
ABA League First Division (Adriatic League)
VTB United League (Russia)
Basketball Bundesliga (Germany)
Israeli Premier Basketball League (Israel)
Lietuvos Krepsinio Lyga (Lithuania)
National Basketball League (Australia)
FIBA Basketball Champions League Americas
FIBA Europe Cup

Tier 5.

FIBA South American League
Novo Basquete Brasil (Brazil)
Liga Nacional Basquetbol (Argentina)
Baloncesto Superior Nacional (Puerto Rico)

Tier 6.

NBA G League
Polska Liga Koszykowki (Poland)
BNXT League (Belgium & Netherlands)
LNBM (Romania)
National Basketball League (New Zealand)

Tier 7.

Chinese Basketball Association (China) Basketball 1 League (Japan)
Philippine Basketball Association (Philippines)

Australian NBL is tier 3, on par with Eurocup and BCL.

NBL teams usually play in the NBA preseason.

[Mavrelous]

Really odd ranking for Mike James, no way I'd rank him above Anthony Parker, or even short stint players like Luka and Bogi, but good for him getting recognition...

[Bankai]

Odd List. Are they only counting Players who spent most of their careers in the Euroleague, and not majority in the NBA?

[Mirotic12]

Tiers of worldwide international basketball leagues:

Tier 1.

National Basketball Association (NBA)

Tier 2.

EuroLeague

Tier 3.

EuroCup Basketball
FIBA Basketball Champions League
Liga ACB (Spain)

Tier 4.

Greek Basketball League (Greece)
Lega Basket Serie A (Italy)
LNB Pro A (France)
Basketboll Super Ligi (Turkey)
ABA League First Division (Adriatic League)
VTB United League (Russia)
Basketball Bundesliga (Germany)
Israeli Premier Basketball League (Israel)
Lietuvos Krepsinio Lyga (Lithuania)
National Basketball League (Australia)
FIBA Basketball Champions League Americas
FIBA Europe Cup

Tier 5.

FIBA South American League
Novo Basquete Brasil (Brazil)
Liga Nacional Basquetbol (Argentina)
Baloncesto Superior Nacional (Puerto Rico)

Tier 6.

NBA G League
Polska Liga Koszykowki (Poland)
BNXT League (Belgium & Netherlands)
LNBM (Romania)
National Basketball League (New Zealand)

Tier 7.

Chinese Basketball Association (China) Basketball 1 League (Japan)
Philippine Basketball Association (Philippines)

Australian NBL is tier 3, on par with Eurocup and BCL.

NBL teams usually play in the NBA preseason.

The top 3, 4, 5 teams in EuroCup and BCL are significantly stronger than the top 3, 4, 5 teams in the NBL. And the same thing with the NBL compared to the Liga ACB.

[Mirotic12]

Calling Jugoplastika team "stacked" is silly.

1989:

Dino Radja
Toni Kukoc
Velimir Perasovic
Dusko Ivanovic
Zoran Sretenovic
Zan Tabak
Luka Pavicevic
Teo Cizmic
Ivica Buric

Head coach: Bozidar Maljkovic

1990:

Dino Radja
Toni Kukoc
Zoran Savic
Velimir Perasovic
Dusko Ivanovic
Zoran Sretenovic
Zan Tabak
Luka Pavicevic
Petar Naumoski

Head coach: Bozidar Maljkovic

1991:

Toni Kukoc
Zoran Savic
Velimir Perasovic
Zoran Sretenovic
Zan Tabak
Avie Lester (Ante Luster)
Luka Pavicevic
Aramis Naglic
Teo Cizmic
Velibor Radovic
Petar Naumoski

Head coach: Zeljko Pavlicevic

Split was one of the most stacked teams in the history of Europe. It qualifies as an all time super team under every single criteria.

[Mirotic12]

Dražen was pretty much Jordan- level unguardable for Euruopien basketball. Guy averaged 37 ppg in national championship, won two Euroleagues, won first Jugoslavian championship at age of 16 (but political reasons took away title ). Yugoslavia had best basketball league in those years in the world. Case and point- from 1980- 1992- 6 times Euroleague champion was from Yugoslavia.
Dražen had streak over 4 years in Europien competitions where he averaged 33 ppg.

Drazen had a really great EuroLeague career. But he didn't do enough to be considered the EuroLeague GOAT.

Drazen Petrovic's EuroLeague career:

2 EuroLeague Finals Appearances
2 EuroLeague Championships

1 EuroLeague Finals "MVP" (asterisk* - the old version of the award that wasn't voted on, but was just stats based)
2 EuroLeague scoring titles

It's a really strong resume obviously, but it's not enough be the EuroLeague GOAT. Numerous other players had better EuroLeague careers than that.

[KGtabake]

Petrovic, Korac, Meneghin, Galis and Sabonis.

These are the greatest European players that have played in euro competitions.
Before the current version of Euroleague.

The bad thing with the current version is that it makes people (mainly younger generations) think that a player like Mike James for example is on par (let alone he's...better) than guys playing before 2000.
Euroleague is not promoting any legends of the past because it's not FIBA.

That's the problem of euro basketball.
Unity must take place.
Otherwise i can't take seriously any lists.

[Mirotic12]

Petrovic, Korac, Meneghin, Galis and Sabonis.

These are the greatest European players that have played in euro competitions.
Before the current version of Euroleague.

The bad thing with the current version is that it makes people (mainly younger generations) think that a player like Mike James for example is on par (let alone he's...better) than guys playing before 2000.
Euroleague is not promoting any legends of the past because it's not FIBA.

Drazen Petrovic and Arvydas Sabonis could be put into a EuroLeague GOAT debate, but neither of them did enough in their EuroLeague careers to actually be considered THE EuroLeague GOAT. Because numerous players had better EuroLeague careers than they did, both in the FIBA era and the current era. They aren't even the top two EuroLeague GOATS of the FIBA era.

Nikos Galis never won a EuroLeague title, and he never even made a EuroLeague Final. So, he's automatically disqualified from any EuroLeague GOAT debate, to anyone that isn't extremely biased.

Dino Meneghin was never the best player on his own EuroLeague teams. Never being the best player on his own teams, automatically disqualifies him from any EuroLeague GOAT debate.

Radivoj Korac is the same example as Galis, he never won a EuroLeague title, and he never even made a EuroLeague Final. So, he's automatically disqualified from the GOAT debate.

If we are talking about who is the greatest individual scorer in EuroLeague history, the EuroLeague scoring GOAT, then Korac, Petrovic, and Galis go into that debate, along with several other players. But being the EuroLeague GOAT is about way more than just personal scoring numbers.

Otherwise, Alphonso Ford is the GOAT of the modern EuroLeague era. But he didn't even make the EuroLeague Top 25 players list. So very clearly, there is a whole lot more to being an actual GOAT, than just personal scoring stats.

In the cases of Arvydas Sabonis and Dino Meneghin, they can be put into a debate about the GOAT EuroLeague center, along with some others, but they didn't have EuroLeague GOAT level careers for all positions.

[mcmurphy]

Dino Meneghin was never the best player on his own EuroLeague teams.

WTF
you are literally crazy... probably you consider the 36 years old Meneghin of Milan

The young Meneghin of Varese won 5 Champions League on 7 seasons

[Mirotic12]

Dino Meneghin was never the best player on his own EuroLeague teams.

WTF
you are literally crazy... probably you consider the 36 years old Meneghin of Milan

The young Meneghin of Varese won 5 Champions League on 7 seasons

Early in Dino Meneghin's career, Manolo Raga and Rich Jones were considered to be better players than him, on his own team.

Early in Meneghin's career, Aldo Ossola, Ottorino Flaborea, and Ivan Bisson were considered to be about as good of players as him, on his own team.

During the prime of Meneghin's career, Bob Morse was considered to be a better player than him, on his own team.

During the prime of Meneghin's career, Charlie Yelverton and Bill Campion were considered to be about as good of players as him, on his own team.

Late in Meneghin's career, Bob McAdoo, Roberto Premier, Ricky Brown, Mike D'Antoni, and Ken Barlow were considered to be better players than him, on his own team.

A basic GOAT requirement is that you were the best player on your own team, through most of your career.

[Mirotic12]

Odd List. Are they only counting Players who spent most of their careers in the Euroleague, and not majority in the NBA?

To qualify, the players just had to play one season in the EuroLeague.

Some international NBA players that played in the EuroLeague, and thus were included in the voting process, but did not make the EuroLeague Top 100 List were:

Pau Gasol
Marc Gasol
Victor Wembanyama
Dino Radja
Bojan Bogdanovic
Rony Seikaly
Goran Dragic
Danilo Gallinari
Carlos Delfino
Marco Belinelli
Gordan Giricek
Nicolas Batum
Davis Bertans
Timofey Mozgov
Nikola Pekovic
Andrea Bargnani
Mickeal Pietrus
Boris Diaw
Dario Saric
Jonas Valanciunas
Jusuf Nurkic
Enes Kanter
Zaza Pachulia
Ersan Ilyasova
Clint Capela
Jose Calderon
Marcin Gortat
Memo Okur
Evan Fournier
Carlos Arroyo
etc.
etc.
etc.

Some international NBA players that played in the EuroLeague, and thus were included in the voting process, and did make the EuroLeague Top 100 List, but did not make the EuroLeague Top 25 List were:

Arvydas Sabonis
Andrei Kirilenko
Nikola Mirotic

Then you have examples of international NBA players that never actually played in the EuroLeague, so they obviously wouldn't be included in the voting process, like:

Dirk Nowitkzi
Nikola Jokic
Giannis Antetokounmpo
Tony Parker
Lauri Markannen
Kristaps Porzingis
Dennis Schroder
Rudy Gobert
Marc Gasol
etc.
etc.
etc.

And this would all be the same exact criteria for American NBA players that played in the EuroLeague. Any American player that played in the EuroLeague qualified, and was included in the voting process.

[Mirotic12]

Really odd ranking for Mike James, no way I'd rank him above Anthony Parker, or even short stint players like Luka and Bogi, but good for him getting recognition...

Mike James probably has the weakest case for being on the EuroLeague Top 25 list, of all the players that made the list, and yet, he's 6th overall on the list. The sports media just loves him though, putting him at 3rd.

It's weird that the sports media overrates him so much. My guess is that it's because the EuroLeague's media is run by US marketing companies. They push Mike James narratives really hard in all of the league's marketing.

There are constant media narratives about Mike James being the EuroLeague GOAT, when based on his EuroLeague career, he should not even be in the GOAT discussion, and isn't an actual GOAT candidate. But his name is usually the first and main one that comes up over and over in the media, whenever they talk about the topic of the EuroLeague GOAT.

It seems like since American marketing companies promote the EuroLeague, that they really desperately want to be able to claim that an American player is the GOAT of the EuroLeague, even if in reality, based on objective analysis, he's not even actually in the discussion for being the EuroLeague GOAT.

All things being considered, Mike James is actually probably the weakest selection on the EuroLeague Top 25 list. Arvydas Sabonis should have made the Top 25 list instead of him.

[Mirotic12]

For his case for Euroleague GOAT, aside from titles, MVP awards , he also changed perception of size. 6'10- ball on the floor, face up, shooting over defenders, playmaking.

Who in your mind had greater career than him ?

Just counting only the FIBA era, since that was when he played, these players would all be ahead of Kukoc for FIBA era GOAT:

FIBA EuroLeague era (1958 to 2000)

Wayne Brabender
Emiliano Rodriguez
Bob Morse
Walter Szcerbiak
Janis Krumins
Manolo Raga
Miki Berkovich
Antonello Riva
Dino Meneghin
Cliff Luyk

Kukoc would be 10th on the FIBA era EuroLeague GOAT list.


Just counting the current ECA era:

ECA EuroLeague era (2000 to present day)

Vassilis Spanoulis
Dejan Bodiroga

So that would put Toni Kukoc at the 13th place in the overall rankings on the EuroLeague GOAT list, counting both the FIBA and ECA eras, from 1958 to the present day time.

[Blame Rasho]

You want an example of how insignificant this thread is to everyone else… you have bumped this how many times recently and no one responded. 47 posts in this thread just by yourself. You even changed the title to put your loser favorite player who was a bust in the nba.

Just stop. Everyone laughs at you. The Euroleague is crap compared to the best players in the NBA. Deal with it.